Forth road bridge closed completely, effect on rail network?

[najaB]

While the lead up to Christmas isn't ideal, I bet transport Scotland are relieved it's not the middle of the summer tourist season.

On the other hand though, summer weather would probably make the repair easier.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

If paths are run out of, will passenger trains get priority over freight trains?

With the exception of engineering trains, there's pretty much just the Aberdeen to Oxwellmains empty cement tanks running from Dundee via Fife through Edinburgh, everything else north or south runs via Perth and Stirling, including the Oxwellmains to Aberdeen loaded cement tanks, as it's a bit too heavy for the Forth and Tay Bridges.

It ran Monday/Wednesday this past week, and there's not a massive problem running it back via Perth/Stirling. I doubt running it in its normal path and route will be an issue anyway, as it's crossing the Forth Bridge at 7.30pm heading south, at a time when the remaining peak flows will mainly be northbound.

If you cast your mind back, the Stirling-Alloa-Kincardine rail link was re-opened mainly to get coal trains heading to Longannet off the Forth Bridge and release many more paths for passenger trains. I don't think any have been returned back for freight.

 

[Deepgreen]

Just heard on the news that the Forth Road Bridge will be totally closed tomorrow. While it's only just been announced, is there any chance of extra carriages on the Fife Circle tomorrow? Despite traffic being allowed across the bridge today, I can imagine services will be even busier tomorrow. I heard the trains were packed earlier with people getting left at stations etc. I know Scotrail are pretty short on units, but surely the loco hauled set could do a few extra runs at short notice?

If not, there are going to be many unhappy customers!

The modern railway system has almost no spare stock or capacity (at least according to the operators and/or regulators), so it's virtually certain nothing will be done. Such is the brilliance of "efficiency" leading to a lack of any spare anything!

 

[najaB]

The modern railway system has almost no spare stock or capacity (at least according to the operators and/or regulators), so it's virtually certain nothing will be done. Such is the brilliance of "efficiency" leading to a lack of any spare anything!

That's not entirely true. While there isn't spare stock sitting idle in sidings ready to be pressed into use a moment's notice, given a few days it is possible to juggle services and defer maintenance to be able to strengthen services for short time demands. Look at how extra services have been provided for sporting events (World Cup, Commonwealth Games, etc.) There is a certain amount of robbing Peter to pay Paul but it can be done.

 

[47802]

The modern railway system has almost no spare stock or capacity (at least according to the operators and/or regulators), so it's virtually certain nothing will be done. Such is the brilliance of "efficiency" leading to a lack of any spare anything!

Given the difficulty of the situation I think its clear that some provision will be made even if it means taking some stock from elsewhere in Scotland and maybe the rest of the UK.

According to WNXX an HST was planned to work an Edinburgh - Kirkcaldy shuttle service today, but due to other disruption by the weather a Voyager is being used instead.

 

[matchmaker]

Never had the joys of the Aberdeen to Lerwick crossing in December, I take it?

I have, many times! A ferry across the Forth in winter is nothing compared to that.
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Given the difficulty of the situation I think its clear that some provision will be made even if it means taking some stock from elsewhere in Scotland and maybe the rest of the UK.

According to WNXX an HST was planned to work an Edinburgh - Kirkcaldy shuttle service today, but due to other disruption by the weather a Voyager is being used instead.

Dear Lord! Aren't the passengers suffering enough already?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

And was the Tay Bridge shut late on last night, with traffic diverted via Perth and onto Ladybank ?

 

[Starmill]

East Coast are now tweeting 'major disruption' between Edinburgh and Kirkaldy due to the closure of the road bridge. How big are the crowds that it amounts to major disruption?

 

[me123]

I was hesitant because I've not used that service before, but it felt similar in loading until Inverkeithing, comparing with other southbound morning services from Aberdeen (for instance the 0952).

Inverkeithing will be the big pinch point. It's a very busy park and ride facility already, which always seems to have plenty of spaces, so that will be where people will go to catch a train over the Forth. Much better than parking at your already congested local P&R or, dare I say it, walking to the station.

Most importantly, it means that people can do the same commute until that point, which will make it the most obvious choice (although not necessarily the most sensible).

I found it quite irritating last night watching the news, when commuters were complaining that Scotrail didn't have a fleet of extra carriages yesterday morning. Having been given a whole six hours notice of the closure prior to the first services of the day running. :roll:
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That's not entirely true. While there isn't spare stock sitting idle in sidings ready to be pressed into use a moment's notice, given a few days it is possible to juggle services and defer maintenance to be able to strengthen services for short time demands. Look at how extra services have been provided for sporting events (World Cup, Commonwealth Games, etc.) There is a certain amount of robbing Peter to pay Paul but it can be done.

Of course, for the Commonwealth Games, it was EMUs. WHich had (have?) plenty of capacity to provide extra services. Sending one of them over the Forth Bridge won't really help matters.

We're relying on DMUs here, of which we currently have a shortage in the short-medium term. (See also complaints of overcrowding on the Borders line). So there's not as much scope for moving services around.

Out of interest, Southern... those nice shiny 170s we sent you a few months ago... are you actually using them yet?

 

[overthewater]

Has this been postage?

The rail union RMT has warned today that the closure of the Forth Road Bridge has exposed the ‘chronic’ lack of ScotRail rolling stock.

The union said today (Friday) that the enforced and sudden closure of the bridge has exposed a severe shortage of capacity on ScotRail with the company now advising people not to travel on its services as it is already rammed out to capacity as travellers seek to find alternative ways to complete their journey.

The problem is now expected to last for weeks.

Mick Cash, RMT General Secretary, said: “The sudden and enforced closure of the Forth Bridge has seriously exposed the chronic lack of spare rolling stock and capacity on ScotRail with the company now advising people not to use their services and to stay at home.

“It is a ludicrous state of affairs when the main rail service is tipped into complete meltdown because of passengers seeking an alternative way of completing their journey.

“This situation calls for an immediate review of the capacity and fleet stock on ScotRail so that passengers are not confronted with this kind of chaotic situation in the future.”



Read more: http://www.fifetoday.co.uk/news/rai...h-road-bridge-closure-1-3966604#ixzz3tScsH3sX

 

[47802]

Has this been postage?

Seriously exposes the crap that Mick Cash comes out with if you ask me, of course the closure of such a major road bridge happens frequently and the railway should have loads of spare trains handy for such a situation!

 

[najaB]

Of course, for the Commonwealth Games, it was EMUs. WHich had (have?) plenty of capacity to provide extra services. Sending one of them over the Forth Bridge won't really help matters.

I know, I was simply using it as an example of where shuffling services can help with short-term pinch points. Now that we know it is likely to be weeks before the bridge is open there may be DMUs running under wires that can be borrowed from other operators for a few weeks if Scotrail is willing to give up a few EMUs. Of course, money would need to change hands, but given the potential impact on the Scottish economy it shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.

 

[PHILIPE]

I know, I was simply using it as an example of where shuffling services can help with short-term pinch points. Now that we know it is likely to be weeks before the bridge is open there may be DMUs running under wires that can be borrowed from other operators for a few weeks if Scotrail is willing to give up a few EMUs. Of course, money would need to change hands, but given the potential impact on the Scottish economy it shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.

Where are the DMUs running under the wires for their whole journeys ?

 

[najaB]

Where are the DMUs running under the wires for their whole journeys ?

I don't know, that's why I said 'may' - are all of the routes that Northern got 319s for fully electric operated now?

 

[me123]

Where are the DMUs running under the wires for their whole journeys ?

I'm not aware of any in Scotland at the moment. And that's my point - the DMUs are being intensively used, whereas our EMUs have so much more slack that can be adapted. We're in an unfortunate position at the moment in Scotland, where the electrification programme is well underway, but not yet completed to the stage that we've released enough DMUs (or rather, the DMUs we have released have been sent to London and haven't yet carried any passengers to the best of my knowledge).

 

[PHILIPE]

There might more flexibility if the production of units had kept up with Supply and Demand. Not in the Rail Industry.

 

[me123]

It would be brilliant to have a stock of standby trains, perhaps stored somewhere central like Birmingham, that could be ready to move at short notice to cover for issues like this, to replace broken down trains, and to cover for large events. I reckon that between these, they'd be kept reasonably busy.

Sadly, we haven't even had enough DMUs built to replace the pacers (which at this rate are probably going to be the backbone of the "Northern Powerhouse"). Having a glut of standby trains is simply not going to happen any time soon.

 

[cf111]

If you're going to bustitute something, would the Far North make sense given that the road journey is quicker?

It's not much quicker when you have to serve Lairg by bus as well as everything else not on the A9. You only really lose the calls at Altnabraec and Scotscalder. The bus also goes to Wick before it goes to Thurso.

That said, it's still a decent idea if it's something they're allowed to do.

 

[Haydn1971]

Having a glut of standby trains is simply not going to happen any time soon.

A life after death for the 144 fleet perhaps

 

[edwin_m]

With DRS running scheduled services on the Cumbrian Coast even spot-hire LHCS is in short supply at present.

 

[PHILIPE]

It would be brilliant to have a stock of standby trains, perhaps stored somewhere central like Birmingham, that could be ready to move at short notice to cover for issues like this, to replace broken down trains, and to cover for large events. I reckon that between these, they'd be kept reasonably busy.

Sadly, we haven't even had enough DMUs built to replace the pacers (which at this rate are probably going to be the backbone of the "Northern Powerhouse"). Having a glut of standby trains is simply not going to happen any time soon.

How could you really have standby trains with all the overcrowding we have. Even the fact they may be there and not doing anything for much of the time they would still cost money.

 

[cjmillsnun]

There's now talk of a ferry. Unsure whether a passenger or vehicle vessel, but CalMac have a couple of 18 car ferries sitting around doing little

That would require a linkspan.

 

[SeanG]

With the ECML down and no chance of diverting via Carlisle could some HSTs stuck in Edinburgh be drafted in, if only for this weekend?

 

[90019]

That would require a linkspan.

The Iona ferry doesn't use linkspans at either side.

 

[jopsuk]

That would require a linkspan.

All the small Calmac ferries are shallow draft and work from slipways, not linkspans

 

[me123]

How could you really have standby trains with all the overcrowding we have. Even the fact they may be there and not doing anything for much of the time they would still cost money.

My point exactly.

 

[6Gman]

How could you really have standby trains with all the overcrowding we have. Even the fact they may be there and not doing anything for much of the time they would still cost money.

Indeed. If there was a "strategic reserve" sitting in a siding somewhere the Daily Mail would go ballistic every time somebody stood on a train!

 

[tbtc]

If you're going to bustitute something, would the Far North make sense given that the road journey is quicker?

The Far North doesn't have *huge* PVR, given the handful of services a day (north of Dingwall), so wouldn't make a big enough difference.

While the lead up to Christmas isn't ideal, I bet transport Scotland are relieved it's not the middle of the summer tourist season.

During the summer, commuter demand goes down significantly, meaning less demand.

Tourists aren't "against the clock" and are generally free to amend plans/ take a diversion.

Most commuters have to be in the office/ factory/ site (etc) by a certain time in the morning, so don't have the flexibility to take the scenic route.

The modern railway system has almost no spare stock or capacity (at least according to the operators and/or regulators), so it's virtually certain nothing will be done. Such is the brilliance of "efficiency" leading to a lack of any spare anything!

Put it this way... I've got my mother in law/ father in law/ brother in law and sister in law coming to stay at Christmas. That means I'll be sleeping on an inflatable bed in the attic whilst others will be sleeping on sofas.

I don't have two spare rooms with double beds in them to cope with such "once a year" events - it's not worth having all that additional capacity 99% of the time.

Maybe you have several spare rooms in your house to cope with those kinds of events, but I'd guess that most people don't. Not ideal when things go wrong, but we've got enough problems on the railway without worrying about "once in a generation" issues like this.

Of course, for the Commonwealth Games, it was EMUs. WHich had (have?) plenty of capacity to provide extra services. Sending one of them over the Forth Bridge won't really help matters

Agreed (and with your points about Inverkeithing).

Out of interest though - what's the current situation re the ex-LM 321s - are they out in service yet? Could a 68 haul them? I'd not heard that they've been in revenue earning service around Glasgow yet?

Seriously exposes the crap that Mick Cash comes out with if you ask me, of course the closure of such a major road bridge happens frequently and the railway should have loads of spare trains handy for such a situation!

True - I get frustrated with the likes of Cash who've always got a snappy "answer" in hindsight. Desperate for publicity, that kid...

How could you really have standby trains with all the overcrowding we have. Even the fact they may be there and not doing anything for much of the time they would still cost money.

Agreed.

As a Fifer, I can't remember the Forth Road Bridge being closed for this duration during my lifetime (closed for a day or two due to high winds, yes, but not for several weeks) - it's not the kind of regular occurrence that I'd want ScotRail to commit spare resources to, hanging around for years at a time "just in case" the road bridge is closed.

BR could have sidings of stock sat around slowly rusting, because they ran a generally declining railway that had bags of spare capacity. The modern railway is busy with virtually no stock withdrawn (that would be fit for further service).

 

[me123]

All the small Calmac ferries are shallow draft and work from slipways, not linkspans

Correct, and there are some free at this time of year. If we exclude the ferries requiring linkspans, we could potentially have two units that are spare over the winter (Loch Riddon as the second Cumbrae ferry and I'm sure MV Isle of Cumbrae is now a spare vessel). Rotate the smaller ferries Raasay and Eigg onto less busy routes (say, Lismore and Tobermory/Kilchoan), and you could maybe free up a few more vessels. Potentially four vessels I reckon.

However, you'll realistically only get a small number of cars across on these (less than 100/hour), and you'll have to bring them around from the West Coast (which will take time, particularly in this weather), and you have to consider that a lot of the fleet at this time of the year is undergoing maintenance, so that would take priority. And you're potentially reducing capacity on lifeline routes - some would say that the Forth Crossing is a lifeline, and it's certainly immensely important as we're learning, but for the Hebridean Isles their ferries are the only link to the mainland, whereas Fife has multiple other routes.

I don't think a ferry in the short term is practical. Even if we get the larger ferries that would work (Loch Dunvegan and Loch Fyne), you'd be doing a lot of shuffling to get other vessels into place before you'd even start on the long voyage around the top of Scotland.

 

[6Gman]

Can I be the first to suggest loco-hauled 442s?





I'll get my coat!