Forth road bridge closed completely, effect on rail network?

[Liam]

I have to confess to a certain sense of schadenfreude* at the plight of road users from Fife to Edinburgh. The Forth Rail Bridge is a triumph of Victorian engineering with massive strength thanks to huge buttresses and cross-bracing, whereas the 1965 road bridge is by comparison a cheap-and-nasty embarrassment. If they'd built an equally-strong road bridge there'd be no problem, but it was the 1960s.

(*look it up!)

Remember that the Forth Bridge was built after the original Tay Bridge fell down. The Forth Bridge was somewhat over-engineered in response to that disaster.
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There's now talk of a ferry. Unsure whether a passenger or vehicle vessel, but CalMac have a couple of 18 car ferries sitting around doing little

I'm not sure they do, the ferries are kept busy, either in dry-dock or covering other vessels in dry-dock. Coruisk has today finished service at Rothesay, but she requires a linkspans.

 

[matacaster]

Off the wall suggestion.

Run a steam service on borders line for next month. Request preserved locos and stock together with staffing to run services. Its a quiet time of year for preserved lines, so maybe they would help in this emergency. The line is pretty much self contained and the novelty of steam services might bring in extra visitors to borders.

Use borders units to strengthen forth bridge services.

 

[6Gman]

How many services could be "bustituted" to release units?

Starting in Scotland and then working south ...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Off the wall suggestion. Run a steam service on borders line for next month. Request preserved locos and stock together with staffing to run services. Its a quiet time of year for preserved lines, so maybe they would help in this emergency. The line is pretty much self contained and the novelty of steam services might bring in extra visitors to borders. Use borders units to strengthen forth bridge services.

Let us not forget that we are discussing the problems emanating from a road bridge problem and much more could have been said about the problems that have led up to the event that has occurred.

 

[ainsworth74]

It may have been mentioned in which case forgive me but has anyone actually worked out if the trains are actually busier now that the bridge is closed?

 

[theageofthetra]

Seen some social media talk (so could well be wibble) on what effect the loss of the road bridges most senior engineers earlier this year following its transfer to a new prrivate agency had on inspections/knowledge?

 

[Class83]

Looking at this realistically, Scotrail need to form all peak am/pm, inbound/outbound services as 6 car. They don't have enough units to do this without reductions elsewhere. The only obvious solutions I can see are to close the Borders Railway until further notice and replace with buses. Or to reduce all Edinburgh-Falkirk-Glasgow services to 3 car, push through passengers onto the Bathgate line and restrict the Falkirk High services to those alighting at intermediate stations. Also, do XC, VTEC, or Chiltern have any spare HSTs or LHCS?

 

[grid56126]

I know DRS Added an extra coach to one of the sets this afternoon. As one set went out with five coaches this morning. Not a massive help, but every little helps.

They were both 6 coach sets a few weeks back . . .

 

[Wallsendmag]

Their braver folks than me that go on a ferry out on the Forth in December.

I can hold my hand up and say I've run into the Forth in January

 

[najaB]

It may have been mentioned in which case forgive me but has anyone actually worked out if the trains are actually busier now that the bridge is closed?

I've seen reports to that effect but haven't actually travelled that way myself. I'll possibly be heading through Edinburgh on Sunday so can compare it to a normal shopping season weekend.

 

[ainsworth74]

I've seen reports to that effect but haven't actually travelled that way myself. I'll possibly be heading through Edinburgh on Sunday so can compare it to a normal shopping season weekend.

Thank you! I was thinking to myself that before we start wandering off into a weird and wonderful world of options to try and get more units for Scotrail to strengthen their services we might want to check that they actually need strengthening!

 

[theironroad]

It may have been mentioned in which case forgive me but has anyone actually worked out if the trains are actually busier now that the bridge is closed?

Well according to the people interviewed on Reporting Scotland tonight, the trains have been rammed....

 

[swt_passenger]

Double stacked containers would be too high for road use!

In this context it doesn't mean double stacked containers, it means two separate levels within a box or curtain side trailer, to carry two levels of palletised goods for example.

 

[Starmill]

BBC News had an interesting section:

Rob Shorthouse, ScotRail communications director, said they had managed "so far" to increase the train capacity between Glenrothes and Edinburgh by about 25%, from 81 journeys a day to over 100 to help relieve congestion.
He said: "This is a really difficult set of circumstances because services are busy.
"All the trains that we have got are out there on the network.
"So, because this is such a national priority we are looking right across Scotland to see where we can move some capacity."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-35001277

Really? There have been more services between Glenrothes and Edinburgh? I thought they were just longer. Certainly in addition to this, twitter and other news outlets are suggesting trains are rammed. I don't think they would have implemented a queuing system at Edinburgh otherwise.

 

[Carntyne]

There'll be more capacity from Saturday onwards. Everything & anything being done behind the scene. Criticism not merited IMO. Lots of people working very long hours to help when the road system has failed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Looking at this realistically, Scotrail need to form all peak am/pm, inbound/outbound services as 6 car. They don't have enough units to do this without reductions elsewhere. The only obvious solutions I can see are to close the Borders Railway until further notice and replace with buses. Or to reduce all Edinburgh-Falkirk-Glasgow services to 3 car, push through passengers onto the Bathgate line and restrict the Falkirk High services to those alighting at intermediate stations. Also, do XC, VTEC, or Chiltern have any spare HSTs or LHCS?

If you're going to bustitute something, would the Far North make sense given that the road journey is quicker?

 

[Starmill]

There'll be more capacity from Saturday onwards. Everything & anything being done behind the scene. Criticism not merited IMO. Lots of people working very long hours to help when the road system has failed.

People are just getting emotional about it on twitter, I'm quite sure you're right. It has not helped that Kilwinning - Largs/Ardrossan remains closed due to adverse weather conditions, and there was a signalling problem that caused significant disruption at Carntyne (funnily enough :P) this afternoon in addition to the one on the Borders.

 

[Blindtraveler]

As someone who regularly uses Fife trains regularly I can say that they carry good numbers even outside of the peeks. Another thing to mention is that the buses are very well used too with a range of services both fast and stopping traveling in and out of Edinburgh each hour as well as Citylink and Megabus services to Perth, Kinross, Dundee, Aberdeen and Inverness. The journeytimes via the alternate routes are much longer and I can see many pax switching to rail.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What is the "available paths" situation like in the affected geographical area?

 

[Stats]

Also, do XC, VTEC, or Chiltern have any spare HSTs or LHCS?

VTEC have a HST at Craigentinney that doesn't enter service until 0930. Maintenance, pathing and roster schedules permitting they could start this back from somewhere north of Edinburgh. Unfortunately, looking at RTT, the 0930 becomes timed for a 225 in the timetable change so it could only be of assistance for next week. Also, I wonder if they could start their Stirling service a week early? The morning service might be a bit too early to be needed for the extra capacity, but the evening return would, I think, help enormously.

 

[Blindtraveler]

The only use VTECs Stirling train will be is for Falkirk and Stirling Pax who may lose services or seats due to some juggling on Fife turns and for anyone using stirling as a changeover point for Glasgow>Aberdeen or Inverness turns, both of which go via Perth with the former then continuing to Dundee. These are however very well used already so may not help much.

 

[dk1]

I would've thought that you could rule any help from XC out straight away. They struggle at the best of times & cancel or run ECS on many weekend services due to lack of TMs.

 

[route:oxford]

The road closure isn't just impacting on Fife.

I have family in central Scotland - it took them 90 minutes to drive from Auchterarder to Bridge of Allan yesterday due to the sheer volume of traffic re-routing via the A9/M9.

It then took a further 50 minutes to get from Henderson Street in Bridge of Allan, across the Keir Roundabout, and on their way back - just no opportunity to get onto the Keir Roundabout with the traffic heading South.

Any major engineering works planned on the railways in Scotland over Christmas that might need to be deferred due to road infrastructure failings?

 

[IanXC]

It may have been mentioned in which case forgive me but has anyone actually worked out if the trains are actually busier now that the bridge is closed?

Not a great example as its a 1026 arrival in Edinburgh (and an HST) but the service I was on on Friday morning was busy, but not overley so. Standing was limited to the vestibules and there were ahandful of empty seats.

More noticeable was how increadibly busy Inverkeithing station in particular was. I also witnessed 6 car 170 formations on the Fife circle.

 

[jimm]

Seen some social media talk (so could well be wibble) on what effect the loss of the road bridges most senior engineers earlier this year following its transfer to a new prrivate agency had on inspections/knowledge?

That two senior people departed when Amey took over management of the bridge in the summer is not wibble, it's a matter of fact. From The Scotsman in August:

THE man in charge of the Forth Road Bridge and another of its key engineers have quit, sparking fears about the future management of the crossing.
Bridgemaster Barry Colford and engineering manager Chris Tracey are understood to have resigned over the transfer of the crossing – one of Scotland’s key transport links – to a private company.
It follows the Scottish Government’s Transport Scotland agency taking control of the bridge from the locally elected Forth Estuary Transport Authority (Feta) and switching its operation to road maintenance firm Amey in June.
Colford and Tracey have played central roles in a series of major repairs to the 50-year-old bridge, which carries 24 million vehicles a year bet*ween Edinburgh and Fife.
These include an investigation which revealed corrosion of its main cables that led to the building of the £1.4 billion Queensferry Crossing.
Critics claim such precautionary checks would not have been carried out under the new private contract because of its limited scope, but this is denied by Transport Scotland.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/forth-bridge-veterans-quit-over-private-contract-1-3866307

Whether there is any connection between their departures and the current situation is another matter but I expect that the Scottish Parliament infrastructure committee will be holding some sort of inquiry in coming months which will be asking that question and looking at the inspection regime.
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Not a great example as its a 1026 arrival in Edinburgh (and an HST) but the service I was on on Friday morning was busy, but not overley so. Standing was limited to the vestibules and there were ahandful of empty seats.

More noticeable was how increadibly busy Inverkeithing station in particular was. I also witnessed 6 car 170 formations on the Fife circle.

Probably is a good example actually. Unless someone knows different, I doubt a 540-seat HST arriving at Waverley from the north in mid-morning would be bordering on full and standing in the normal course of things, so the loadings in the peaks must have been on another scale entirely.

 

[najaB]

Probably is a good example actually. Unless someone knows different, I doubt a 540-seat HST arriving at Waverley from the north in mid-morning would be bordering on full and standing in the normal course of things, so the loadings in the peaks must have been on another scale entirely.

I've caught that train in the past and I don't recall there being standees - certainly there's always been plenty of free seats.

 

[Starmill]

To add to the fun there's reportedly a broken down train between Edinburgh and North Berwick.

All TOCs affected continuing to warn of ongoing disruption between Edinburgh and Kirkaldy all day due to bridge closure. They don't specify but I can only assume they mean delays due to extended dwell times and overcrowding.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

If paths are run out of, will passenger trains get priority over freight trains?

 

[IanXC]

Probably is a good example actually. Unless someone knows different, I doubt a 540-seat HST arriving at Waverley from the north in mid-morning would be bordering on full and standing in the normal course of things, so the loadings in the peaks must have been on another scale entirely.

I was hesitant because I've not used that service before, but it felt similar in loading until Inverkeithing, comparing with other southbound morning services from Aberdeen (for instance the 0952).

 

[theironroad]

While the lead up to Christmas isn't ideal, I bet transport Scotland are relieved it's not the middle of the summer tourist season.