The UK and white elephant stations

[urbophile]

A quick hunt around the internet reveals Liverpool South Parkway appears to be approaching the top 10% of stations by passenger numbers and so no white elephant in that sense.

It did also aim a) to improve connectivity between Merseyrail and other services (which it has) and encourage rail travel through the provision of a large, free car park (which it has).

Hopefully, as Liverpool City Region continues to progress forcefully with bus franchising, a more consistent and appropriate bus link can be put in place to John Lennon Airport.

There already are several bus routes which provide a frequent service to the airport. However few people like the idea of changing (often with heavy luggage) from train to bus or vice-versa. As well as the poorly integrated ticketing system. LSP serves south Liverpool well as a rail interchange, but the airport really does need its own rail link – which would also serve the large and disadvantaged community of Speke.

So South Parkway is arguably a white elephant in terms of its use for air travellers; as a transport hub for the southern suburbs however it is well used and could be further developed.

 

[Stopper]

If there was room in the timetable an hourly stopping service to Dunbar giving the stations from Edinburgh to Drem a half hourly service would be useful.

Edinburgh-Dunbar ScotRail service prior to the chaos timetable was 2 hourly (roughly) and called at Musselburgh, this later included Wallyford and East Linton. Unfortunately any improvements to North Berwick & Dunbar services are unlikely with the current infrastructure. You’d be unlikely to get another stopping service squeezed in there all week.

 

[Bikeman78]

Edinburgh-Dunbar ScotRail service prior to the chaos timetable was 2 hourly (roughly) and called at Musselburgh, this later included Wallyford and East Linton. Unfortunately any improvements to North Berwick & Dunbar services are unlikely with the current infrastructure. You’d be unlikely to get another stopping service squeezed in there all week.

Which brings us back to the point I made before. The big trains don't want to stop there and there is limited capacity to put in extra trains. Why build a station in that situation?

 

[Lurcheroo]

The original plans had the up trains non stop at Tallerdig, passing the down train. A loop at Carno might make it better, but you would still have issues at Fron I suspect as you would be later there and clashing with the down train. That would put the down train later again at Carno meaning it might need to be a longer loop like Welshpool.

Yeah so pretty unviable as it stands.

That would mean the additional expense of separate platforms for each direction at Carno

Yes, which of course makes it less viable as costs will climb.

the up is timed for 1 minute there due to engineering allowance, but probably passes without stopping in most cases (it's possible the historical timings are influenced by older more time-consuming block procedures from RETB days)

I seem to stop there a fair bit on the up when crossing. If I’m on time on the up and don’t stop then I have to take it very easy and coast basically the entire way to Caersws doing well below line speed or the train would be there really early and you’ll either get checked down by the signaller or, the barriers for Caersws crossing will be down for a ridiculous amount of time.

I believe they were allowed to do on the move exchanges at Tallerdig with RETB.

Carno has less than 800 people and is ten minutes away from Caersws (with a station) on the Mach - Newtown bus. A station would be little used and make the bus service more uneconomic.
IMO investment on the line should be in getting it hourly and speeding it up.

depends how well the bus connects with trains I suppose!

You can't speed it up apart from potentially at either end, the infrastructure is built upon the trains passing at particular points. Speed the trains up and they either have to wait longer at Welshpool or Talerddig.

Ah, though that still leaves well over a third of it to attempt to speed up….though I guess that the only opportunities would be any level crossing or weak bridge issues - can’t be signal sighting!

I do wonder how 197’s will effect the timings. Especially Caersws - Tallerdig 158’s don’t even come close to line speed for a lot of it but 197’s do no issues from what I’m told.
Shrewsbury - Welshpool is already topping out with good sections of 130KPH (80mph) and a lot of it being 120KPH (75mph).

Dovey Junction - Aberystwyth is max 95KPH (60mph) with some minor speed restriction restrictions for curves and some bigger ones for the ABCL I.e 55 Kph at Borth Capel Soar and 65KPH at Llandre and Llanbadarn.
There’s certainly some sections that I don’t see why the line speed couldn’t be higher but there’s probably a reason.

 

[The Planner]

I do wonder how 197’s will effect the timings. Especially Caersws - Tallerdig 158’s don’t even come close to line speed for a lot of it but 197’s do no issues from what I’m told.
Shrewsbury - Welshpool is already topping out with good sections of 130KPH (80mph) and a lot of it being 120KPH (75mph).

Dovey Junction - Aberystwyth is max 95KPH (60mph) with some minor speed restriction restrictions for curves and some bigger ones for the ABCL I.e 55 Kph at Borth Capel Soar and 65KPH at Llandre and Llanbadarn.
There’s certainly some sections that I don’t see why the line speed couldn’t be higher but there’s probably a reason.

It will end up as resilience I expect. Interesting point about Caersws, there must be a solution for that with the barriers.

 

[Lurcheroo]

It will end up as resilience I expect. Interesting point about Caersws, there must be a solution for that with the barriers.

Yes I suspect it will (and it will be well used during summer and leaf fall no doubt). They will surely have to re-do the timetable somewhat because as I say, even now, there are places where there is quite a lot of spare time in the timings so hopefully it allows a nice consistent time table such as allowing every service to leave Aber at something like 28 minutes past the hour (for example) every hour.


Surely is but it’s a tough one, incredibly slippy area and the crossing is virtually attached to the end of the platform. I would think and reasonable and safe solution would likely have quite a time penalty for any moves going through there.

 

[option]

If Worcestershire Parkway has a future as a commuter town towards Birmingham then new dedicated services on top of what already runs through there should be provided to serve it, rather than, as pointed out above, making extra existing trains call that are already overcrowded without the stop. This would however require upgrades to the line, such as extending electrification and/or providing turnback facilities wherever needed in this instance, but this is getting speculative.

Good luck doing that on that mainline

In terms of electrification/new services, WMCA/TfWM aren't going to fund extending either from Bromsgrove, it's too far at 13miles. (Bromsgrove-New St is only a mile further & has 8 intermediate stations. The Kings Heath line is ~7miles & would be a greater priority for electrification.)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Sep 2024 ==

This thread seems to have morphed into a thread about Parkway stations, so perhaps I can throw in Warwick and Stratford-on-Avon Parkways. From both of these trains go to the town itself but Warwick Parkway is I imagine mainly used for travel to London.

Stratford Parkway is always quiet when i've been through it. There's new housing just south of it, but the pedestrian access isn't great, & just have a look at the bus stop!

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45-55 minutes to get into Birmingham, & the services are weirdly gapped.

 

[Stopper]

Which brings us back to the point I made before. The big trains don't want to stop there and there is limited capacity to put in extra trains. Why build a station in that situation?

A 2-hourly service with the odd TPE thrown in would actually be a brilliant service for about half of the stations in Scotland East Linton may just about justify its case, but Reston is just absolutely pointless.

 

[xotGD]

There already are several bus routes which provide a frequent service to the airport. However few people like the idea of changing (often with heavy luggage) from train to bus or vice-versa. As well as the poorly integrated ticketing system. LSP serves south Liverpool well as a rail interchange, but the airport really does need its own rail link – which would also serve the large and disadvantaged community of Speke.

So South Parkway is arguably a white elephant in terms of its use for air travellers; as a transport hub for the southern suburbs however it is well used and could be further developed.

If you live in Liverpool and want to catch a train to the airport...

...fly from Manchester.

 

[slipdigby]

Oh yeah I definitely appreciate that!

Unfortunately we live under Capitalism so everything is about money, things of other value such as social benefits get overlooked.
Maybe one day whilst I’m still driving on the Cambrian we will see it get re-opened!

Social benefits of various types are generally quantified and considered in the economic appraisal section of a green book compliant WebTAG (or WelTAG in this instance) business case.

 

[JamesT]

I was on a (68 hauled) train past Warwick Parkway during the working day recently and noticed that one (surface level) car park appeared to be closed off and the multi-story had few cars in it. Is it busy as a Parkway or did I miss something?

Possibly a post-Covid shift in working patterns? Passenger numbers are half those from 5 years ago.
It was busy enough that the parking was expanded in 2012.
I remember driving down the M40 with the advertising hoardings saying you would be in London already if you’d taken the train.

 

[sh24]

It is right by the junction between the North Devon Link Road and the M5. Effectively it's the intercity station for the whole of North Devon (as well as Tiverton itself), and is pretty well designed for that. Even from most of Plymouth it's quicker to drive on the A38 to Tiverton Pkwy than to drive into the city centre and catch the fairy slow and winding rail route through Devon I'd say it's an ideal Parkway station.

Agree it's a good railhead, and has over half a million entry and exits a year. A long long way from a white elephant.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you live in Liverpool and want to catch a train to the airport...

...fly from Manchester.

I'd rather poke my eyes out with a rusty nail and pull my fingernails off. It's the worst airport in the country.

Best is probably to take a taxi there instead.

Frustratingly a spur to Liverpool airport would be quite easy to construct from the barely-used WCML slow lines, but the Metro Mayor prefers a bendybus with a bodykit.

 

[A S Leib]

Are there any metro stations or tram stops which could be called white elephants? Even Roding Valley had 260,000 passengers in 2022; almost as many as Sudbury and more than Harlow Mill. Pallion, the least-used Tyne and Wear Metro station, had 92,000 in 2017-8, not far short of Horden's and more than Billingham's.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

From a 1900 perspective the Hainault Loop (especially the northern part) would count. From a more recent perspective, nothing on the Underground and I'm fairly sure every tram stop is reasonably well used despite what the 1990s doomsayers were saying.

 

[The exile]

Are there any metro stations or tram stops which could be called white elephants? Even Roding Valley had 260,000 passengers in 2022; almost as many as Sudbury and more than Harlow Mill. Pallion, the least-used Tyne and Wear Metro station, had 92,000 in 2017-8, not far short of Horden's and more than Billingham's.

Would be difficult for a single tram stop to be a white elephant as the costs of maintaining and operating it alone are unlikely ever to be crippling. I suppose one that is hardly used but frequently vandalised might fit the bill.

 

[Djgr]

If you live in Liverpool and want to catch a train to the airport...

...fly from Manchester.

Quite a lot of people do the reverse, that is travel to John Lennon airport from Manchester, Yorkshire etc.

Generally you don't really have a choice between the two but the thought of having to use Manchester airport is a bit of a nightmare for many.

 

[daodao]

Quite a lot of people do the reverse, that is travel to John Lennon airport from Manchester, Yorkshire etc.

Generally you don't really have a choice between the two but the thought of having to use Manchester airport is a bit of a nightmare for many.

There are a handful of smaller Eastern European cities with flights from Speke but not from Ringway.

Back to the topic, I suspect that there are some Metrolink stations with poor use, such as Pomona, some others on the Trafford Park line and one or two on the Ashton line not along Ashton New Road itself.

 

[Farigiraf]

Are there any metro stations or tram stops which could be called white elephants? Even Roding Valley had 260,000 passengers in 2022; almost as many as Sudbury and more than Harlow Mill. Pallion, the least-used Tyne and Wear Metro station, had 92,000 in 2017-8, not far short of Horden's and more than Billingham's.

I imagine the Herdings Park branch (Purple Line) of the Sheffield Supertram is quite disused, as an hourly tram service compared to 6tph on the nearby Blue line is rather useless unless you intend on catching a specific tram, which is against the point of a tram network (i.e turn up and go).

 

[A S Leib]

I imagine the Herdings Park branch (Purple Line) of the Sheffield Supertram is quite disused, as an hourly tram service compared to 6tph on the nearby Blue line is rather useless unless you intend on catching a specific tram, which is against the point of a tram network (i.e turn up and go).

I'm not sure how frequent or reliable buses to the city centre are, but I'd guess that if you're a 20 minute walk south or west of Herdings Park, that tram stop might be fine to walk to but Gleadless Townsend might not be. Presumably if it's the first one to turn up coming back from central Sheffield you'd still use the Herdings Park branch as well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I imagine the Herdings Park branch (Purple Line) of the Sheffield Supertram is quite disused, as an hourly tram service compared to 6tph on the nearby Blue line is rather useless unless you intend on catching a specific tram, which is against the point of a tram network (i.e turn up and go).

That line kind of suffered because most of its custom (a load of blocks of flats) got knocked down. There probably should be a decision about whether to close it or whether to build a load of new housing there to recreate the custom.

 

[Farigiraf]

I'm not sure how frequent or reliable buses to the city centre are

The combination of the 11, 47 and 48 provide a bus between the city centre and Herdings Park approximately every 5 minutes. It's about 10 minutes faster than the tram too.

Presumably if it's the first one to turn up coming back from central Sheffield you'd still use the Herdings Park branch as well.

That's still a 1 in 7 chance you'll see one before a Halfway tram.

 

[Meerkat]

Stratford Parkway is always quiet when i've been through it. There's new housing just south of it, but the pedestrian access isn't great, & just have a look at the bus stop!

That’s shocking - surely they should have tapped the southern developments for a footpath on the north side of the road and then down to the Birmingham platform…..rather than walk over the railway and another 100 odd yards to get the path back, and then have to go over the footbridge or three miles of ramps to get back to the correct side again!
The station just looks cheap and us inviting. Needs an overlooking development between it and the road to make it feel less remote.

Frustratingly a spur to Liverpool airport would be quite easy to construct from the barely-used WCML slow lines

It would need a lot of viaduct and demolition wouldn’t it? A tram train would need less but would then be slower and less appealing for the airport (but could serve Speke and the business parks much better)

 

[frodshamfella]

There already are several bus routes which provide a frequent service to the airport. However few people like the idea of changing (often with heavy luggage) from train to bus or vice-versa. As well as the poorly integrated ticketing system. LSP serves south Liverpool well as a rail interchange, but the airport really does need its own rail link – which would also serve the large and disadvantaged community of Speke.

So South Parkway is arguably a white elephant in terms of its use for air travellers; as a transport hub for the southern suburbs however it is well used and could be further developed.

I use it often to reach the airport, when compared to what was available before LSP was developed, it's much better, I have no problem using it to reach the terminal building. I do also think now as Liverpool Airport continues to grow it needs it's own rail head , if not some sort of dedicated tram from South Parkway.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Sep 2024 ==

If you live in Liverpool and want to catch a train to the airport...

...fly from Manchester.

But Manchester Airport is awful, Merseyrail and bus is just fine, I will stick with Liverpool Airport, it's a.breeze.

 

[Djgr]

I use it often to reach the airport, when compared to what was available before LSP was developed, it's much better, I have no problem using it to reach the terminal building. I do also think now as Liverpool Airport continues to grow it needs it's own rail head , if not some sort of dedicated tram from South Parkway.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Sep 2024 ==


But Manchester Airport is awful, Merseyrail and bus is just fine, I will stick with Liverpool Airport, it's a.breeze.

Without a doubt Manchester Airport has more destinations and passengers.

Without a doubt Liverpool John Lennon Airport is a much better airport experience.

 

[takno]

Without a doubt Manchester Airport has more destinations and passengers.

Without a doubt Liverpool John Lennon Airport is a much better airport experience.

Of course if Liverpool airport got a rail link it would probably lead to a significant increase in passengers, making it busier and less pleasant.

I remember when Edinburgh was smaller quieter and nicer thinking it would be lovely if I could get there more easily and had flights to a few more destinations

 

[geoffk]

That line kind of suffered because most of its custom (a load of blocks of flats) got knocked down. There probably should be a decision about whether to close it or whether to build a load of new housing there to recreate the custom.

or extend it across the Gleadless valley on a huge viaduct!

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[frodshamfella]

I have no issues with Liverpool Baltic as a station concept, but it certainly appears over-engineered/over-designed for a Merseyrail station. I can't help but feel that, with better long-term planning, the money would have been better spent on a simpler design and cracking on with e.g. Daresbury station too.

Seems like it has been approved costing 96M.

 

[AlastairFraser]

or extend it across the Gleadless valley on a huge viaduct!

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What about an extension down to Jordanthorpe? Off-topic I know, but may be a decent place for it.

 

[Class 170101]

Reston itself is small but serves as a railhead for quite a wide area, including places like Eyemouth and Duns. The service is mostly for the Edinburgh direction.

Its a poor service unfortunately and frankly either Scotrail need to extend to Berwick Upon Tweed or TPE need to run hourly between Edinburgh and Newcastle or merge the Scotrail Dunbar service with the Northern Morpeth service and run hourly.

Connecting Leeds Bradford Airport to the railway network may be a win, but it certainly won't be easy..

Not sure how an extra service(s) can be accommodated at Leeds to be honest

Reston isn’t credibly served. You’ve got two and four gaps in the timetable. Before construction there was talk of the Scotrail stopper to Berwick and Liverpool-Edinburgh being hourly. What happened?

Indeed see first comment above, but TPE didn't have firm rights but Lumo did so TPE got booted out.

Soham was a vanity project for James Palmer. He was the first mayor of Cambridgeshire and Peterborough, and came from Soham.

Usage is respectable in comparison with other local stations, but whether that level of usage justifies the cost of building a new station is a different question.

Soham was apparently built on the 'cheap' by building it on the single line section between Bury St Edmunds and Ely, it didn't need lifts nor a second platform, thats proving a folly due to the amount of freight on the line.

For me though I'd be interested to know how much of a white elephant Ilkeston is? That was meant to be parkway station but only gets an hourly service from Northern with a few random extras from EMR each day,