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The UK and white elephant stations

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Djgr

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I think the name describes what it is very well: a station with a large car park in the orbit of a town, but certainly not within the town.

It's definitely better than the old railway habit of naming somewhere "X Road" just so the railway company could pretend it served X.

The success of these types of stations very much depends on how attractive it ends up being as a railhead for the local area.
Of course there are always exceptions to prove the rule.

Liverpool South Parkway is not in the centre of the city but certainly within its southern suburbs.

Whilst it does have a reasonable size car park (c300 spaces), this is smaller than many on the Merseyrail network (half the size of Birkenhead North for example).

It does not provide overnight parking and, in my experience, pretty much full by rush hour anyway.
 
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xotGD

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Basically, if you get off the train at a station called "Parkway", expect a very long walk to get into town!
 

The Planner

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As you say Bow Street is a useful stop but I think the case for re-opening Carno is even stronger. It really is ridiculous that there are no stations at all between Caersws and Machynlleth making life very difficult for those who can't or don't drive. Numbers at Carno would never be huge given how sparsley populated the area is but the lack of stations along the Cambrian mainline compared to the Cambrian Coast is very striking.
You can't make it work, the loops etc are all wrong to serve Carno. Bow Street worked as it just ate into the Aberystwyth turnaround.
 

Mikey C

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I find it really weird that Didcot had to be renamed Didcot Parkway as it is in the town of Didcot. Having lots of car parking dosent need to change the name of the station. (Sorry this is quite off topic)
Didcot Parkway does operate as a parkway station (in the conventional use of the term) for many towns in the area like Wantage and Abingdon, just not for Didcot :D
 

brad465

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We can probably add Tiverton Parkway to this list then, only has an hourly bus link to surrounding areas and not the biggest-looking car park. Its main benefit from what I see is as a RRB head for buses to Plymouth when the line through Dawlish is shut. Does it have a load of passengers from Tiverton who are dropped off/picked up by taxis/friends/family?
 

daodao

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Soham isn’t much better. Its on a line that goes in the wrong directions, a line that is too important for other traffic to be stopping trains at tiny towns en route.
Soham is not a tiny town. Its population was 12,336 at the 2021 census, and the station that opened is on a line with an existing passenger service.
 

takno

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We can probably add Tiverton Parkway to this list then, only has an hourly bus link to surrounding areas and not the biggest-looking car park. Its main benefit from what I see is as a RRB head for buses to Plymouth when the line through Dawlish is shut. Does it have a load of passengers from Tiverton who are dropped off/picked up by taxis/friends/family?
The car park has 450 spaces. I wouldn't call that small
 

61653 HTAFC

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Basically, if you get off the train at a station called "Parkway", expect a very long walk to get into town!
Similarly, if you drive to a station called "X Parkway", be aware that you may or may not be able to catch a train to the centre of "X"!
 

Taunton

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In fairness, Edinburgh Gateway was intended to be on the new line between Edinburgh and Glasgow, which subsequently was dropped from the general E to G Improvement Programme.
It did seem a bizarre bit of public investment, spending the considerable sum on the station to provide airport travellers with better access, while at the same time cancelling the second half of the overall project because the government now doesn't like air travel at all.
 

BayPaul

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We can probably add Tiverton Parkway to this list then, only has an hourly bus link to surrounding areas and not the biggest-looking car park. Its main benefit from what I see is as a RRB head for buses to Plymouth when the line through Dawlish is shut. Does it have a load of passengers from Tiverton who are dropped off/picked up by taxis/friends/family?
It is right by the junction between the North Devon Link Road and the M5. Effectively it's the intercity station for the whole of North Devon (as well as Tiverton itself), and is pretty well designed for that. Even from most of Plymouth it's quicker to drive on the A38 to Tiverton Pkwy than to drive into the city centre and catch the fairy slow and winding rail route through Devon I'd say it's an ideal Parkway station.
 

thenorthern

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The Sinfin Branch Line in Derby has to be one of the top ones. Opened in 1976 and closed less than 20 years later.

The West Midlands Metro was for many years a white elephant. It largely served as an urban rail service between Wolverhampton and Birmingham but not serving the center of Birmingham very well.

East Midlands Parkway is another one.

The assumption that a lot of people will drive to a parkway station and the get the train doesn't seem to be one that holds up - in practise a lot more people will just drive all the way. You're already in the car anyway.

In the particular case of East Midlands Parkway, you're paying £8 for the parking, plus whatever the train fare is. That's comparable to daily car parking in a lot of places. Not exactly an attractive alternative.

Also the East Midlands is very car dependent, in the 3 main cities there there is 1 main station along with a number of small suburban halts dotted around the suburbs served by semi-rural services often irregularly. It's much easier to drive to the airport than the train.
 

Tetchytyke

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Liverpool South Parkway is not in the centre of the city but certainly within its southern suburbs.

Whilst it does have a reasonable size car park (c300 spaces), this is smaller than many on the Merseyrail network (half the size of Birkenhead North for example).
True, there is the second more modern use of Parkway as a station close to an airport- Southampton, Luton, Liverpool South.

On that subject, I wouldn't call Liverpool South Parkway a white elephant but it isn't actually that good for the purpose it was built- to serve Liverpool Airport.
 

Djgr

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True, there is the second more modern use of Parkway as a station close to an airport- Southampton, Luton, Liverpool South.

On that subject, I wouldn't call Liverpool South Parkway a white elephant but it isn't actually that good for the purpose it was built- to serve Liverpool Airport.
A quick hunt around the internet reveals Liverpool South Parkway appears to be approaching the top 10% of stations by passenger numbers and so no white elephant in that sense.

It did also aim a) to improve connectivity between Merseyrail and other services (which it has) and encourage rail travel through the provision of a large, free car park (which it has).

Hopefully, as Liverpool City Region continues to progress forcefully with bus franchising, a more consistent and appropriate bus link can be put in place to John Lennon Airport.
 

geoffk

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This thread seems to have morphed into a thread about Parkway stations, so perhaps I can throw in Warwick and Stratford-on-Avon Parkways. From both of these trains go to the town itself but Warwick Parkway is I imagine mainly used for travel to London.
 

Merle Haggard

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This thread seems to have morphed into a thread about Parkway stations, so perhaps I can throw in Warwick and Stratford-on-Avon Parkways. From both of these trains go to the town itself but Warwick Parkway is I imagine mainly used for travel to London.

I was on a (68 hauled) train past Warwick Parkway during the working day recently and noticed that one (surface level) car park appeared to be closed off and the multi-story had few cars in it. Is it busy as a Parkway or did I miss something?
 

Mikey C

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As an aside if the tube station Cockfosters (which a lot of people outside London drive to) was renamed to "Cockfosters Parkway", perhaps TfL would be less keen to build flats all over the car park...
 

Lurcheroo

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You can't make it work, the loops etc are all wrong to serve Carno. Bow Street worked as it just ate into the Aberystwyth turnaround.
Would making Carno a loop and passing point instead of Tallerdig make things better or worse in that regard?

Also, if it was just a single platform (and no loop) how much would the 197’s need to alter the timings to make it workable ?
 

DJ_K666

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It usually relates to there being a decent-sized car-park, and the expectation that most of the passengers will be parking their cars and making their way by train. Being near a motorway is neither here nor there.
I drive past the proposed 'Rugby Parkway' site regularly and there certainly isn't that much room for a car park. Unless it goes on the south side, of course
I do recall parts of the 'Ringways' idea for London being designated as 'parkways' in the word's original (US) sense however I maintain my view that slapping the word 'parkway' on a station us a flashy buzzword and not really meaningful. Or useful.
I think the name describes what it is very well: a station with a large car park in the orbit of a town, but certainly not within the town.

It's definitely better than the old railway habit of naming somewhere "X Road" just so the railway company could pretend it served X.

The success of these types of stations very much depends on how attractive it ends up being as a railhead for the local area.
That's as maybe, the station will be sited where Houlton and the lower and of Hillmorton meet. Anyone heading to Rugby us more likely to get off at Rugby Midland (to use its old name) as car parking space on what will remain on the site won't exactly be expansive, unless the whole field between there and Stobart's at DIRFT is earmarked. Even then we'll be picking up the one-stop-wonders (known in the bus industry as lazy b[censored]s) at the new station and dropping them at the Tesco warehouses near the site of what was the Halfway House pub.

Calling something X Road was common practice on the Great Western. But back then people thought nothing about walking two miles. Colonel Stephens did the same. To quote CJ Freezer "With a Colonel Stephens line you got out and walked. Anything less than a mile was just around the corner in his way of thinking."

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Any transport infrastructure built to serve a new development needs to be up and running from the word go otherwise people develop alternative travel habits that are then hard to break. If that means running almost empty for a bit, then so be it - developers ought to have to contribute a subsidy until a certain percentage of a development is occupied- thus also providing an incentive to get on with it.
From a bus industry perspective property developers gave to provide funding for bus services for X amount of years (I'm fairly sure it's 5), it's called Section 104 money. It's meant to get public transport services up and running early on. Most of the routes I do around new bits of Rugby are on 104 money. Houlton, Ashlawn and the new bit of the Cawston estates are on that.
 
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The Planner

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Would making Carno a loop and passing point instead of Tallerdig make things better or worse in that regard?

Also, if it was just a single platform (and no loop) how much would the 197’s need to alter the timings to make it workable ?
The original plans had the up trains non stop at Tallerdig, passing the down train. A loop at Carno might make it better, but you would still have issues at Fron I suspect as you would be later there and clashing with the down train. That would put the down train later again at Carno meaning it might need to be a longer loop like Welshpool.
 

MarkyT

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Would making Carno a loop and passing point instead of Tallerdig make things better or worse in that regard?

Also, if it was just a single platform (and no loop) how much would the 197’s need to alter the timings to make it workable ?
That would mean the additional expense of separate platforms for each direction at Carno. Down trains are usually timed to get to Talerddig first where a dwell of 3 minutes is scheduled. The up train usually passes one minute after the down has arrived; the up is timed for 1 minute there due to engineering allowance, but probably passes without stopping in most cases (it's possible the historical timings are influenced by older more time-consuming block procedures from RETB days). The down then departs 2 minutes after the up arrives/passes, which gives a little margin for minor late running. While typical, not all passing timings are exactly like this. If the trains passed at Carno, the down would have to wait for the up there and depart a little later. Then you'd be looking at the implications at the next loop. You couldn't really save on the 3 minute first train arrival timing penalty with a short station passing loop though. It might work with a longer, more dynamic loop but still at the extra station construction expense. Perhaps better to extend the Talerddig loop eastward a distance, not all the way to Carno but to some location between, so even with a Carno stop the down's clearance of the single line to the east isn't delayed any more than today. It looks like the first road overbridge encountered, a recent construction ~400m east of Talerdig, has been built sufficiently wide for a double track formation.
 
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OverSpeed

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Even though it's not built yet, I am going to say HS2 and The Birmingham interchange Station :D

I drive past the proposed 'Rugby Parkway' site regularly and there certainly isn't that much room for a car park. Unless it goes on the south side, of course
I do recall parts of the 'Ringways' idea for London being designated as 'parkways' in the word's original (US) sense however I maintain my view that slapping the word 'parkway' on a station us a flashy buzzword and not really meaningful. Or useful.

That's as maybe, the station will be sited where Houlton and the lower and of Hillmorton meet. Anyone heading to Rugby us more likely to get off at Rugby Midland (to use its old name) as car parking space on what will remain on the site won't exactly be expansive, unless the whole field between there and Stobart's at DIRFT is earmarked. Even then we'll be picking up the one-stop-wonders (known in the bus industry as lazy b[censored]s) at the new station and dropping them at the Tesco warehouses near the site of what was the Halfway House pub.

Calling something X Road was common practice on the Great Western. But back then people thought nothing about walking two miles. Colonel Stephens did the same. To quote CJ Freezer "With a Colonel Stephens line you got out and walked. Anything less than a mile was just around the corner in his way of thinking."

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


From a bus industry perspective property developers gave to provide funding for bus services for X amount of years (I'm fairly sure it's 5), it's called Section 104 money. It's meant to get public transport services up and running early on. Most of the routes I do around new bits of Rugby are on 104 money. Houlton, Ashlawn and the new bit of the Cawston estates are on that.
I think if that station will ever be built, it would be served quite nicely by the Northampton loop services, but I'd say the people who would in theory use it will be commuters to the London region, as the majority of people who have moved to Houlton are from London and the SE.
 

Meerkat

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Carno has less than 800 people and is ten minutes away from Caersws (with a station) on the Mach - Newtown bus. A station would be little used and make the bus service more uneconomic.
IMO investment on the line should be in getting it hourly and speeding it up.
 

DJ_K666

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Even though it's not built yet, I am going to say HS2 and The Birmingham interchange Station :D


I think if that station will ever be built, it would be served quite nicely by the Northampton loop services, but I'd say the people who would in theory use it will be commuters to the London region, as the majority of people who have moved to Houlton are from London and the SE.
Yep. Most likely all station Northampton then Milton Keynes, Watford Jn and then Euston or variations thereof.

I'd be very wary of buying a house in Houlton though, London commuter or not, since it's marsh land. They've already had to shore up some of them due to subsidence.
 

The Planner

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Carno has less than 800 people and is ten minutes away from Caersws (with a station) on the Mach - Newtown bus. A station would be little used and make the bus service more uneconomic.
IMO investment on the line should be in getting it hourly and speeding it up.
You can't speed it up apart from potentially at either end, the infrastructure is built upon the trains passing at particular points. Speed the trains up and they either have to wait longer at Welshpool or Talerddig.
 

Meerkat

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You can't speed it up apart from potentially at either end, the infrastructure is built upon the trains passing at particular points. Speed the trains up and they either have to wait longer at Welshpool or Talerddig.
Ah, though that still leaves well over a third of it to attempt to speed up….though I guess that the only opportunities would be any level crossing or weak bridge issues - can’t be signal sighting!
 

Kingston Dan

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East Linton at least serves a place, unlike Reston, and is on the right side of Dunbar for a local service. It would benefit from the ScotRail Dunbar services coming back regularly though rather than relying on TPE services every so often.
If there was room in the timetable an hourly stopping service to Dunbar giving the stations from Edinburgh to Drem a half hourly service would be useful.
 

BrianW

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Every 'white elephant' station must expect to be a site for an Ecotown or extensive P&R car park. Planning and construction has taken so long and so much hard-to-find cash that they must be seen to be paying their way/ a return on investment. Surely every one of their proponents must be keen to be able to justify how right they were.
 
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