The UK and white elephant stations

[waveyswirley]

I have no issues with Liverpool Baltic as a station concept, but it certainly appears over-engineered/over-designed for a Merseyrail station. I can't help but feel that, with better long-term planning, the money would have been better spent on a simpler design and cracking on with e.g. Daresbury station too.

 

[Magdalia]

Soham - similar situation to Bow Street. opened 2021, 2 hourly service, with no improvement until an Ely North Junction upgrade.

Despite only having a 2 hourly service, Soham is well used when I go there and appreciated by the community.

Soham was a vanity project for James Palmer. He was the first mayor of Cambridgeshire and Peterborough, and came from Soham.

Usage is respectable in comparison with other local stations, but whether that level of usage justifies the cost of building a new station is a different question.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Sep 2024 ==

Stratford International is another prime example of a white elephant.

I have heard anecdotes from members of the London 2012 Olympics bid team that driving the members of the International Olympic Committee in a motorcade through the tunnel from St Pancras to Stratford in 2005 was critical to winning the bid. The station was very intensively used for the Olympic Games, with average passenger numbers of about 90k per day.

 

[dk1]

Stratford International is another prime example of a white elephant. Built for HS1 and for Eurostar services to serve East London only to later be abandoned because it made no sense stopping a high speed train a mere seven minutes out of St. Pancras. Even with Southeastern's Javelin services it's an underutilised station, even more so than Ebbsfleet which at least had international services at one point. Much like HS2 they were the symptoms of the UK's problems with long-term thinking with infrastructure projects or going back on some of the original intentions later down the line when it's almost too late.

You must be on a different planet to the rest of us

 

[Meerkat]

There really should be some kind of inquiry into the huge waste of money building Reston in a sparsely populated area, and then having to beg around to get a service to stop there .
Soham isn’t much better. Its on a line that goes in the wrong directions, a line that is too important for other traffic to be stopping trains at tiny towns en route.

 

[Bill57p9]

Although a BR era rather than recent example, I would nominate Teeside Airport.

Of course there are famous historic examples of stations that were built never to see a service including Dartmouth and North End (London).

 

[Harpo]

Bow Street has been mentioned a few times. An unhappy neighbour?

Am I right in thinking that Bow Street’s specially built bus stop within the P&R area no longer has any services calling there??

 

[The exile]

Although a BR era rather than recent example, I would nominate Teeside Airport.

Of course there are famous historic examples of stations that were built never to see a service including Dartmouth and North End (London).

Dartmouth did see a service - just not a train!

 

[Tom125]

Regarding Bow Street, I suppose it depends on how you view the railway. If you view it as a public service and not purely about money then I would say for the 30K annual users it's a success. After all there are plenty of stations on the Cambrian coast that fail to achieve that number of passengers (my own local station inlcuded) but the stations provide a vital transport link for the residents of villages and hamlets in rural Wales. I think the Cambrian line is a really successful rural railway and an asset to the communities it serves.

When I last used the T2/ T28 bus it stopped max 5 mins walk away from the station at Bow Street Tregerddan bus stop- it didn't go into the station itself.

 

[MarkyT]

Dartmouth did see a service - just not a train!

I think Dartmouth did well from the Kingswear solution. The GWR ferry quay or 'station' was far more central to the town centre and tourist attractions than any site actually accessible by trains approaching via a high level viaduct to clear admiralty shipping, likely well out of town up on the hillside. Having the commercial presence of a proper virtual station at the quayside and integrating the ferry fully into the rail journey timetables and ticketing was a great idea. Services would not have been so popular if a Dartmouth resident needed to take the ferry to Kingswear first to make a ticket enquiry or send a parcel.

 

[ScotGG]

Indeed but to TFL it was "unexpected"

Says a lot about TfL at times!

See their misguided DLR plan now which goes pretty much nowhere of interest south of the river to not link with the Elizabeth line at Abbey Wood. Hopefully that plan is ditched.

 

[NSEWonderer]

Says a lot about TfL at times!

See their misguided DLR plan now which goes pretty much nowhere of interest south of the river to not link with the Elizabeth line at Abbey Wood. Hopefully that plan is ditched.

Indeed, not sure who did the statistics and geographical research.

Tbh the DLR to Thamesmead makes sense for redevelopment of the area, which has been long long neglected, transport wise. I'd have however wished they'd have gone with the Overground as far as Plumstead via tunnels from Thamesmead moorings.

 

[lachlan]

On the flip side Kintore looks like it has been a success despite concerns about the location and the oil downturn in Aberdeen. I'm sure a station at Newtonhill would be just as successful, if they got the damn thing built.

 

[duffield]

East Midlands Parkway has been very useful to me a few times - when there's been a big gap in the direct service from Nottingham to Derby (e.g. Sunday, with XC cancellations), I've been able to change there and get to Derby in only 10 minutes longer than going direct.

 

[DunsBus]

There really should be some kind of inquiry into the huge waste of money building Reston in a sparsely populated area, and then having to beg around to get a service to stop there .
Soham isn’t much better. Its on a line that goes in the wrong directions, a line that is too important for other traffic to be stopping trains at tiny towns en route.

Especially with Berwick-upon-Tweed being so close by which has better facilities and, more importantly, a more frequent service. No-one is going to drive to a pair of poorly-served, windswept platforms when there is a proper station ten miles down the road.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Soham was a vanity project for James Palmer. He was the first mayor of Cambridgeshire and Peterborough, and came from Soham.

Are you, perhaps, being a little over critical here? After all, local people for local solutions?

Don't get me wrong, I have no time for wild spending, airports located in the President's village miles from where 99.9% of people want to go type stuff, but perhaps Mr P thought that Soham had been given a rough deal in the first place (by closing the station altogether) and some sort of restoration was due the local folk.

OTOH, Mr P may be some kind of megalomaniac - I don't know, and I respect that you are far better informed than I.

Usage is respectable in comparison with other local stations, but whether that level of usage justifies the cost of building a new station is a different question.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Sep 2024 ==

55,518 in 2022-2023 = about 154 entries/exits per day. Seems remarkable to me given the service is only 1 TP2H (and with a post-Covid gap mid-day) and fails to go where most people want to go. (Is there any 'secret' minority population that hails from Leeds or Newcastle living in Soham?)

If only we could get that chord restored at Ely and a 'proper' service to Cambridge, one has to wonder what the numbers might be.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Soham isn’t much better. Its on a line that goes in the wrong directions, a line that is too important for other traffic to be stopping trains at tiny towns en route.

. . . . particularly on a single track stretch of the route.

 

[Magdalia]

Mr P may be some kind of megalomaniac - I don't know, and I respect that you are far better informed than I.

Palmer was the main protagonist for the now abandoned Cambridge Autonomous Metro, a very grandiose project that most local people regarded as undeliverable.

If only we could get that chord restored at Ely and a 'proper' service to Cambridge, one has to wonder what the numbers might be.

"That chord" is near Newmarket, and would link into the single track route from Newmarket into Cambridge. If there had been a chord at Ely, that could be restored to link into the double track route from Ely into Cambridge, then considerations would be different.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Palmer was the main protagonist for the now abandoned Cambridge Autonomous Metro, a very grandiose project that most local people regarded as undeliverable.

OK - but that doesn't mean his push to reopen Soham was mere 'vanity project' does it?

"That chord" is near Newmarket, and would link into the single track route from Newmarket into Cambridge. If there had been a chord at Ely, that could be restored to link into the double track route from Ely into Cambridge, then considerations would be different.

Apologies - yes, of course, I meant the Newmarket chord (must have had a brain f##t.)

Incidentally, I've been wondering how the Soham usage figures are - in my estimation - so good. Of course, without the real travel data, it's mere speculation, but one reason that crossed my mind is the relatively good Sunday service. (Even if, as I can see, the first SuO Ipswich - Peterboro' - Ipswich diagram is on its last day today.)

The point is, students with homes in Soham do have ready possibilities to take weekends at home from universities in places like Leicester, Birmingham, Nottingham, Derby, as well as Norwich, Colchester (?) and London, of course.

How many such university students live in Soham? I don't know - 25, 50, 75, 100? But if an average of 15-20 come home every weekend, that would help the figures that extra bit over the year.

 

[Magdalia]

Incidentally, I've been wondering how the Soham usage figures are - in my estimation - so good. Of course, without the real travel data, it's mere speculation, but one reason that crossed my mind is the relatively good Sunday service. (Even if, as I can see, the first SuO Ipswich - Peterboro' - Ipswich diagram is on its last day today.)

The point is, students with homes in Soham do have ready possibilities to take weekends at home from universities in places like Leicester, Birmingham, Nottingham, Derby, as well as Norwich, Colchester (?) and London, of course.

How many such university students live in Soham? I don't know - 25, 50, 75, 100? But if an average of 15-20 come home every weekend, that would help the figures that extra bit over the year.

It is an interesting theory. Soham has an unusual educational history. It had a boys grammar school from the 17th century, then got a village college in the 1950s. These merged as part of the education reforms of the early 1970s (raising the school leaving age and ending selection). It is also an ideal place to live for Kings School at Ely, so it could have lots of University students.

And I have personal experience of Sunday journeys from Cambridge to the West Midlands as a University student.

Of course these could be journeys that would have been made anyway, but using Ely instead.

 

[Lurcheroo]

TFW's public view at least was for both to relieve parking issues in Aberystwyth and to act as a 'Transport Hub' for the area, although the former was the one adopted more by other media outlets (and therefore became my impression). The sparser service of course does push it more into the long-distance 'Transport Hub' (a halt and a large car park apparently qualifies for this) territory.
The hourly service will start in 2026 and be summer only, from what I can see.

It certainly does get use in both directions. Driving past in the last few weeks, I have on multiple occasions noted that the car park is entirely full and people have taken to parking in non car park spots, such as on the grass.
Ultimately it is just a single 4 car platform so very little cost of running (in the grand scheme of the railway) I would have thought and it has definitely encouraged more people to use the train so that is a positive!

A lot do try and get a free ride between Bowstreet and Aber and vice Versa so you have to be quick as a guard to see those people!

As for the service level, these are the current departures(approx) from Aberystwyth, all of which stop at Bowstreet and have an accompanying inbound working that also stops at Bowstreet:
05:30, 06:30, 07:30, 08:30, 09:30, 11:30, 12:30, 13:30, 15:30, 17:30, 18:30, 19:30, 20:30, 21:30, 22:30, 23:30.

So for an hourly service you’re only missing departures at 10:30, 14:30 and 16:30. That’s only 3 extra services a day each way.

 

[Djgr]

I have no issues with Liverpool Baltic as a station concept, but it certainly appears over-engineered/over-designed for a Merseyrail station. I can't help but feel that, with better long-term planning, the money would have been better spent on a simpler design and cracking on with e.g. Daresbury station too.

Think of it not as a suburban station but as a proper city centre station which, in the fullness of time, it will become.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

Regarding Bow Street, I suppose it depends on how you view the railway. If you view it as a public service and not purely about money then I would say for the 30K annual users it's a success. After all there are plenty of stations on the Cambrian coast that fail to achieve that number of passengers (my own local station inlcuded) but the stations provide a vital transport link for the residents of villages and hamlets in rural Wales. I think the Cambrian line is a really successful rural railway and an asset to the communities it serves.

As you say Bow Street is a useful stop but I think the case for re-opening Carno is even stronger. It really is ridiculous that there are no stations at all between Caersws and Machynlleth making life very difficult for those who can't or don't drive. Numbers at Carno would never be huge given how sparsley populated the area is but the lack of stations along the Cambrian mainline compared to the Cambrian Coast is very striking.

 

[waveyswirley]

Think of it not as a suburban station but as a proper city centre station which, in the fullness of time, it will become.

Good point!

 

[DavidGrain]

I have used the Worcestershire Parkway station a few times and noticed a lot of connecting traffic between the GWR Cotswold Line and the Cross Country Birmingham to Cardiff line. Whilst I have no knowledge of the Park and Ride usage, in the past I have known of many people using stations on the Cotswold Line to travel into London for business purposes so I assume that there is a market.

Shortly there will be three new stations opening in Birmingham on the Camp Hill Line which has not seen local services since 1941. I would expect this line to be a success requiring over the coming years increasing capacity over the opening planed 2tph and become a success like Birmingham's Cross City Line which reopened back in the 1970s, which was also closed in 1941. The example of the recently rebuilt University Station which is now operating at about 4x the planned maximum of the original on this line is an example of what is possible if the infrastructure is provided.

 

[Tom125]

As you say Bow Street is a useful stop but I think the case for re-opening Carno is even stronger. It really is ridiculous that there are no stations at all between Caersws and Machynlleth making life very difficult for those who can't or don't drive. Numbers at Carno would never be huge given how sparsley populated the area is but the lack of stations along the Cambrian mainline compared to the Cambrian Coast is very striking.

I agree it does feel like an anomaly not to have a station there.

 

[Lurcheroo]

As you say Bow Street is a useful stop but I think the case for re-opening Carno is even stronger. It really is ridiculous that there are no stations at all between Caersws and Machynlleth making life very difficult for those who can't or don't drive. Numbers at Carno would never be huge given how sparsley populated the area is but the lack of stations along the Cambrian mainline compared to the Cambrian Coast is very striking.

I agree, in that I think Carno (done correctly) could be a very valuable stop on the Cambrian.
It definitely needs good, free, parking to be valuable so that even those who do drive can see it as a good place to catch the train. The parking situation at Caersws (and even Newtown and Welshpool) isn’t great really and I wouldn’t be surprised if some are out off by it.
But living in the area and driving through Caersws to get to Mach for work each day, if you can’t or don’t drive, life is difficult due to being in rural wales and having a station at Carno wouldn’t make a huge difference unless you live near.

One of the biggest issues with reopening Carno is timings.
Adding Bow street removed a few minutes off the Turnaround time at Aberystwyth and Carno would take even more.
In the down direction the line speed at Carno is 120Kph (approx 75mph) and then picks up to 130KPH (80mph) towards tallerdig.
Compared to Bowstreet where line speed is 90Kph (55mph).

Fortunately there are some fancy new trains with much better acceleration and braking due next year that will almost certainly reduce the section times as well as being a lot faster to boot up the onboard ERTMS when turning around at Aberystwyth which would make Carno much more viable from a timings perspective in my opinion.

Then there is the debate around whether or not you make it a single platform like bow street, or do you make it a loop. A loop could be single platform like Dovey junction or 2 platforms like Newtown.
Making it 2 platforms like Newtown and scheduling trains to cross there instead of Tallerddig would be best in my opinion, always better to be stuck in a platform than in the middle of nowhere in my opinion.

But it certainly could provide much needed, additional year round revenue for the Cambrian.

 

[zwk500]

Then there is the debate around whether or not you make it a single platform like bow street, or do you make it a loop. A loop could be single platform like Dovey junction or 2 platforms like Newtown.
Making it 2 platforms like Newtown and scheduling trains to cross there instead of Tallerddig would be best in my opinion, always better to be stuck in a platform than in the middle of nowhere in my opinion.

I would agree, although the loop at Tallerddig is so close you would probably either extend it or replace it to allow trains to stop only in a platform.
Although the local catchment is tiny, the social value of a connection would be high to those living there. One thing that might pose a cost problem is the level crossings in the area, although it depends exactly where you put the platforms.

 

[Taunton]

Edinburgh Gateway is one I consider a white elephant. Having stopped there a few times I've never seen anyone get on or off there. Usage even seems to have halved since it opened, which must be something of a record for new stations.

One issue is the way such projects get gold plated once they look like going ahead. Bristol Parkway, and some of the new local stations in West Yorkshire from a generation ago, were built pretty minimalist, and for those that succeeded (Bristol Parkway in particular) have been added to as and when justified.

Incidentally, for those above placing much store on the official usage figures, which can sometimes look skewed from reality (both ways), they are based on a range of algorithms rather than someone sitting there counting entries. On occasion the algorithms have changed and there were then substantial year-on-year differences both ways - the Merseyrail electric stations had a big recalculation a while ago where all the branch terminal stations lost more than half their usage figures, while the adjacent intermediate stations gained amounts. I believe split ticketing is a particular issue not addressed. This comes as no surprise; even Beeching's figures were found by his economist Stewart Joy, who seriously doubted some of them, to be a fiction as reported by the local management, when he went to them and physically counted them.

 

[Mr. SW]

Liverpool Baltic Triangle is destined to be very busy over the next few years. There's even some suggested outline planning for the old Wapping Station.
My nephew works for a developer which has considerable interest in old dock area.

https://www.lccdigitaloce.com/regeneratingliverpool/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/6734_BalticTriangle_SRF_V6.1_FINAL2020_Web.pdf

A document that shows ideas and planning for the area.

[Edit for spelling.]

 

[Siemens Trains]

Edinburgh Gateway is one I consider a white elephant. Having stopped there a few times I've never seen anyone get on or off there. Usage even seems to have halved since it opened, which must be something of a record for new stations.

One issue is the way such projects get gold plated once they look like going ahead. Bristol Parkway, and some of the new local stations in West Yorkshire from a generation ago, were built pretty minimalist, and for those that succeeded (Bristol Parkway in particular) have been added to as and when justified.

Incidentally, for those above placing much store on the official usage figures, which can sometimes look skewed from reality (both ways), they are based on a range of algorithms rather than someone sitting there counting entries. On occasion the algorithms have changed and there were then substantial year-on-year differences both ways - the Merseyrail electric stations had a big recalculation a while ago where all the branch terminal stations lost more than half their usage figures, while the adjacent intermediate stations gained amounts. I believe split ticketing is a particular issue not addressed. This comes as no surprise; even Beeching's figures were found by his economist Stewart Joy, who seriously doubted some of them, to be a fiction as reported by the local management, when he went to them and physically counted them.

In fairness, Edinburgh Gateway was intended to be on the new line between Edinburgh and Glasgow, which subsequently was dropped from the general E to G Improvement Programme. It's meant to be an interchange with the tram to Edinburgh Airport and the nearby business park (including RBS at Gogar), plus it's on the doorstep of a reasonably large shopping centre. There's quite a lot of development planned nearby too.

However I take your point that it's embarrassingly underused outside peak times at present, given its size and amount of investment 10 years ago. Even although it's new and staffed, the station feels a bit second rate. It's quite a miserable place to board or alight, especially for airport passengers who will probably notice the contrast between rail and air travel.