The UK and white elephant stations

[A S Leib]

Winslow's not massive, but going by the paths in RTT from December, I think there to Euston should be doable in under an hour once passenger services start (quicker than they'd be to Marylebone if the Aylesbury branch were to proceed). 40-50 minutes to Oxford city centre (including walking time from the station) seems time-competitive with driving, and 2 tph should be attractive enough.

I don't know if it will be able to attract any people driving from Buckingham who currently go to Bicester or Bletchley / Milton Keynes instead, especially going towards London.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't know if it will be able to attract any people driving from Buckingham who currently go to Bicester or Bletchley / Milton Keynes instead, especially going towards London.

It wouldn't make any sense at all to drive to Winslow for a slower, less frequent connectional rail journey than the faster, twice the frequency service from Bletchley. Other than Chiltern afficionados I doubt many use Bicester for London as it takes almost twice as long and is a lot more expensive, and Chiltern afficionados probably use Aylesbury or Vale Parkway which while also slower than Bletchley is at least cheaper!

Certainly the one guy I know who lives in Buckingham only ever uses Bletchley or MKC.

There's one niche it might possibly appeal to, though. There is an off road cycle path all the way from Buckingham to Winslow, so you may well get some people deciding to trade driving to Bletchley (there is no nice cycle route, your choice is the A421 or a very hilly avoiding route) for cycling, possibly by e-bike, to Winslow. However I suspect this will be a minority.

Demand for Buckingham to Oxford is likely to depend on what happens with the X5 bus service after the line opens, which without access to Stagecoach's financials is very speculative indeed.

 

[Stopper]

There really should be some kind of inquiry into the huge waste of money building Reston in a sparsely populated area, and then having to beg around to get a service to stop there .
Soham isn’t much better. Its on a line that goes in the wrong directions, a line that is too important for other traffic to be stopping trains at tiny towns en route.

Reston shouldn’t have been opened. Anyone pretending that it’s a ‘railhead’ for Eyemouth, Duns etc is simply looking on a map and has zero local knowledge of the area. It’s a ghost station that would be quiet on a branch line, let alone the ECML where nothing can stop.

Edinburgh Gateway is one I consider a white elephant. Having stopped there a few times I've never seen anyone get on or off there. Usage even seems to have halved since it opened, which must be something of a record for new stations.

One issue is the way such projects get gold plated once they look like going ahead. Bristol Parkway, and some of the new local stations in West Yorkshire from a generation ago, were built pretty minimalist, and for those that succeeded (Bristol Parkway in particular) have been added to as and when justified.

Incidentally, for those above placing much store on the official usage figures, which can sometimes look skewed from reality (both ways), they are based on a range of algorithms rather than someone sitting there counting entries. On occasion the algorithms have changed and there were then substantial year-on-year differences both ways - the Merseyrail electric stations had a big recalculation a while ago where all the branch terminal stations lost more than half their usage figures, while the adjacent intermediate stations gained amounts. I believe split ticketing is a particular issue not addressed. This comes as no surprise; even Beeching's figures were found by his economist Stewart Joy, who seriously doubted some of them, to be a fiction as reported by the local management, when he went to them and physically counted them.

Another completely bizarre ghost station that doesn’t serve the airport, unless you want to get an overpriced tram after an overpriced train, and doesn’t serve the local area even half as well as Edinburgh Park or South Gyle do.

 

[Arewethereyet?]

Where do you think the good burghers of mid-Worcestershire want to travel most often: Birmingham and London, or Plymouth and Edinburgh?!

Worcestershire Parkway has 335,000 passengers a year, making it significantly busier than any of the other stations on the Cotswold Line between Oxford and Worcester. It has been an undoubted success. I don't think the station promoters are the people suffering from a lack of "rationality" right here.

Take care with the passenger use numbers for Worcestershire Parkway, the regularity with which late running London trains are turned back at Worcester and Birmingham trains cancelled means that part of the 'growth' in use comes from travellers from Malvern and beyond (including my good self) using Parkway to access a more reliable service!

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

But living in the area and driving through Caersws to get to Mach for work each day, if you can’t or don’t drive, life is difficult due to being in rural wales and having a station at Carno wouldn’t make a huge difference unless you live near.

I think we pretty much agree but, having relatives in the area, there's a heck of a differance between asking a neighbour or family member to give you a short lift to Carno and asking them to drive you to either Caersws or Mach. It's just common sense for a social railway to have an intermediate stop. Everyone seems to agree on that - but it never happens!

 

[Bikeman78]

There have been a few new station opening success stories in recent years - Leven, Woolwich, Okehampton, Tweedbank etc.
But for the few that do well, there seems to be an increasing amount of white elephant (not much use, yet high maintenance) stations being built.

You can add East Linton to the list. Bizarrely, it has 12 southbound trains but only 10 northbound. With the reduced Scotrail timetable, six southbound and four nortbound are missing. If it cannot justify an hourly service then why bother?

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I would not say that Bow Street is a white elephant. Been through to Aber a few times 2022 - 2024 and there are always people getting on and off. Would say from my trips through it is well used. Trains are now almost hourly in each direction. What does amuse me is the house which is some distance from the platform which has "Welcome to Hell" painted on the wall. Apparently the person who lives wasn't happy about the reopening! Not sure why as the house is away from the railway. Perhaps he doesn't like all the cars using the P&R which seems well filled.

Seems a like a railway problem neigbour! https://www.countytimes.co.uk/news/19126902.bow-street-station-neighbour-paints-welcome-hell-wall/

One of the biggest complaints appears to be the auto announcements. With trains running from 0500 to 2345, I can sympathise. There must be a way to switch them off, or at least reduce the volume at certain times. It's unlikely that someone turning up at 0600 at a station with a single line will get on the wrong train. Even if they do board a late running Aber train by mistake, they are no worse off because it will be the same train coming back.

 

[Porty]

Apart from the infrequent and irregular service (no Edinburgh services between 10:46 and 14:37), I find it slightly annoying that there's no bus service from East Linton station to the National Museum of Flight. For the 34th-most visited attraction in Scotland (https://news.stv.tv/scotland/nation...mong-most-visited-tourist-attractions-in-2022), the fact that it can take close to two hours to get to a railway station a ten minutes' drive away is far from attractive. (I think there are buses to North Berwick, but that's less useful from southeast of Edinburgh.)

Now that Eve have been taken over by Lothian Buses there is better marketing of the bus services linking the museum to both Haddington and North Berwick. I was there last week and was pleasantly surprised to see a bus stop flag and timetable outside a WW2 building providing an enclosed waiting room. Great to see the stop well within the site giving easy access on foot. Connections at Haddington for the half hourly X7 to East Linton/Dunbar or Edinburgh. An interesting circular tour, in either direction, by bus from Edinburgh if the X5 (or train) is used via North Berwick.

 

[John Luxton]

One of the biggest complaints appears to be the auto announcements. With trains running from 0500 to 2345, I can sympathise. There must be a way to switch them off, or at least reduce the volume at certain times. It's unlikely that someone turning up at 0600 at a station with a single line will get on the wrong train. Even if they do board a late running Aber train by mistake, they are no worse off because it will be the same train coming back.

House appears to have double glazing thus not sure how noise permeates so much over 60 yards. For all my life until 2007 I lived by a very busy main road into Liverpool City Centre just the pavement between where I lived and four lanes of traffic. Okay not so busy at night except weekends but never noticed it and where I lived then had the old sash single glazed windows. You just get used to it and eventually you don't notice it. Surprised he hasn't got used to it.

 

[Sprinter107]

I have used the Worcestershire Parkway station a few times and noticed a lot of connecting traffic between the GWR Cotswold Line and the Cross Country Birmingham to Cardiff line. Whilst I have no knowledge of the Park and Ride usage, in the past I have known of many people using stations on the Cotswold Line to travel into London for business purposes so I assume that there is a market.

Shortly there will be three new stations opening in Birmingham on the Camp Hill Line which has not seen local services since 1941. I would expect this line to be a success requiring over the coming years increasing capacity over the opening planed 2tph and become a success like Birmingham's Cross City Line which reopened back in the 1970s, which was also closed in 1941. The example of the recently rebuilt University Station which is now operating at about 4x the planned maximum of the original on this line is an example of what is possible if the infrastructure is provided.

The Cross City line didnt close in 1941, as the service as it stands didnt exist before 1978. The West Suburban line, across which the Cross City trains run kept its local trains. They were only reduced right down in frequency around 1966, after bring reprieved from the Beeching Closures. The only station to close temporarily was Five Ways in 1944, which was made permanent in 1950. Church Road had already closed in 1925, and Somerset Road in 1931. The local stations at Selly Oak, Bournville, Kings Norton, Northfield and Barnt Green didnt close in 1941 but remained open and kept their local trains from Redditch and Worcester to Birmingham New Street.

 

[Bikeman78]

House appears to have double glazing thus not sure how noise permeates so much over 60 yards. For all my life until 2007 I lived by a very busy main road into Liverpool City Centre just the pavement between where I lived and four lanes of traffic. Okay not so busy at night except weekends but never noticed it and where I lived then had the old sash single glazed windows. You just get used to it and eventually you don't notice it. Surprised he hasn't got used to it.

I have also lived overlooking a busy road with single glazed windows. As you say, it wasn't a problem, although I slept a lot better in my 20s than I do now. Also, I get the impression that hearing see it, say it, sorted blasting out at all hours would get on my nerves a lot more than traffic noise!

 

[Lurcheroo]

I think we pretty much agree but, having relatives in the area, there's a heck of a differance between asking a neighbour or family member to give you a short lift to Carno and asking them to drive you to either Caersws or Mach. It's just common sense for a social railway to have an intermediate stop. Everyone seems to agree on that - but it never happens!

Oh yeah I definitely appreciate that!

Unfortunately we live under Capitalism so everything is about money, things of other value such as social benefits get overlooked.
Maybe one day whilst I’m still driving on the Cambrian we will see it get re-opened!

 

[The exile]

House appears to have double glazing thus not sure how noise permeates so much over 60 yards. For all my life until 2007 I lived by a very busy main road into Liverpool City Centre just the pavement between where I lived and four lanes of traffic. Okay not so busy at night except weekends but never noticed it and where I lived then had the old sash single glazed windows. You just get used to it and eventually you don't notice it. Surprised he hasn't got used to it.

To be fair though, there is a difference between continuous traffic noise and announcements every half hour or so, in the same way that heavy rain often seems quite soporific while a dripping tap can keep you awake.

 

[Stopper]

You can add East Linton to the list. Bizarrely, it has 12 southbound trains but only 10 northbound. With the reduced Scotrail timetable, six southbound and four nortbound are missing. If it cannot justify an hourly service then why bother?

East Linton at least serves a place, unlike Reston, and is on the right side of Dunbar for a local service. It would benefit from the ScotRail Dunbar services coming back regularly though rather than relying on TPE services every so often.

 

[DJ_K666]

Personally I see Parkway stations being either a flashy name (the proposed Rugby Parkway should really be called Houlton, or Houlton & Crick, as the proposed station is on the A428, around ¾ of a mile from a motorway and west of a large warehouse estate. I do wonder if the Parkway name is just a good sounding idea knocked around by suits in conference rooms.

 

[takno]

Personally I see Parkway stations being either a flashy name (the proposed Rugby Parkway should really be called Houlton, or Houlton & Crick, as the proposed station is on the A428, around ¾ of a mile from a motorway and west of a large warehouse estate. I do wonder if the Parkway name is just a good sounding idea knocked around by suits in conference rooms.

It usually relates to there being a decent-sized car-park, and the expectation that most of the passengers will be parking their cars and making their way by train. Being near a motorway is neither here nor there.

 

[The exile]

Personally I see Parkway stations being either a flashy name (the proposed Rugby Parkway should really be called Houlton, or Houlton & Crick, as the proposed station is on the A428, around ¾ of a mile from a motorway and west of a large warehouse estate. I do wonder if the Parkway name is just a good sounding idea knocked around by suits in conference rooms.

Well, its original incarnation had nothing to do with car parking (though it was a nice “double meaning” as that was the point of the station.) It established a precedent for “XYZ Parkway” meaning “Station with a large car park not a million miles from XYZ”

 

[A S Leib]

Well, its original incarnation had nothing to do with car parking (though it was a nice “double meaning” as that was the point of the station.) It established a precedent for “XYZ Parkway” meaning “Station with a large car park not a million miles from XYZ”

I don't know how much parking France's TGV [region] stations generally have, but I don't think lots of them are brilliantly connected to towns, e.g. via Arras being the best route by rail from Amiens to TGV Haute Picardie.

 

[The exile]

I don't know how much parking France's TGV [region] stations generally have, but I don't think lots of them are brilliantly connected to towns, e.g. via Arras being the best route by rail from Amiens to TGV Haute Picardie.

Fairly certain some of them were nothing more than sops to local politicians- actual practical use being very much a secondary concern.

 

[signed]

but I don't think lots of them are brilliantly connected to towns

Basically only Saint-Pierre-des-Corps (having a 4tph TER shuttle), Avignon TGV (being only 6km from the center), and maybe Valence TGV are really quite well connected. The rest are in the absolute middle of nowhere. Especially Lorraine TGV.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Personally I see Parkway stations being either a flashy name (the proposed Rugby Parkway should really be called Houlton, or Houlton & Crick, as the proposed station is on the A428, around ¾ of a mile from a motorway and west of a large warehouse estate. I do wonder if the Parkway name is just a good sounding idea knocked around by suits in conference rooms.

Well, its original incarnation had nothing to do with car parking (though it was a nice “double meaning” as that was the point of the station.) It established a precedent for “XYZ Parkway” meaning “Station with a large car park not a million miles from XYZ”

There was a W.R. competition to name the station that became Bristol Parkway. The winner cleverly used the then-name for what's now known as the M32. I think, but not sure, that the motorway followed the alignment of Parkway Road.

Happy coincidence, really; at the time the station was intended more to provide a service from Bristol to South Wales without adding journey time to the latter than a massive parking area.

Watford Junction station car park was massively extended in about 1970 and the Area Manager was very proud of the big increase in passengers to London that it produced. Unfortunately the downside was that driving from the North to London had been unattractive because of central London congestion and parking, so people caught the train from Manchester and other cities in the north and Midlands. Once the car park opened - comparatively convenient for the M1 - the A.M.s new business was composed of abstracted long distance Inter-City business by people who were happy with motorway but not London driving. Probably the same effect with Luton Airport Parkway, even closer to the M1.

 

[Transilien]

Personally I see Parkway stations being either a flashy name (the proposed Rugby Parkway should really be called Houlton, or Houlton & Crick

I find it really weird that Didcot had to be renamed Didcot Parkway as it is in the town of Didcot. Having lots of car parking dosent need to change the name of the station. (Sorry this is quite off topic)

 

[The exile]

There was a W.R. competition to name the station that became Bristol Parkway. The winner cleverly used the then-name for what's now known as the M32. I think, but not sure, that the motorway followed the alignment of Parkway Road.

The “Parkway” name (for the M32) follows the precedent of the 1920s “Portway” link road from the centre of Bristol out towards Avonmouth (now the A4). Once clear of Eastville, the M32 passes through parkland almost all of the way out to the M4.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I do wonder if the Parkway name is just a good sounding idea knocked around by suits in conference rooms.

I think the name describes what it is very well: a station with a large car park in the orbit of a town, but certainly not within the town.

It's definitely better than the old railway habit of naming somewhere "X Road" just so the railway company could pretend it served X.

The success of these types of stations very much depends on how attractive it ends up being as a railhead for the local area.

 

[Merle Haggard]

The “Parkway” name (for the M32) follows the precedent of the 1920s “Portway” link road from the centre of Bristol out towards Avonmouth (now the A4). Once clear of Eastville, the M32 passes through parkland almost all of the way out to the M4.

Thanks for the info. I'm not from those parts, but was working at Paddington R.H.Q. at the crucial time and the details are hazy in my memory.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

"Parkway' roads were originally a US concept, particularly in NY State, under the direction of transport planner Robert Moses, who was also notorious for pushing 'expressways' through city districts. In Manchester, the extension of Kingsway, Princes Parkway opened in the '30s, originally had trees, flowers and shrubbery but soon lost to widening and the M56!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Sep 2024 ==

Edit not Kingsway but Princes Road.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

I don't know how much parking France's TGV [region] stations generally have, but I don't think lots of them are brilliantly connected to towns, e.g. via Arras being the best route by rail from Amiens to TGV Haute Picardie.

The magnificently nicknamed "gares des betteraves" - or "beetroot stations", as in they're situated in a beetroot field rather than an actual town. (French-language article about them: https://www.lemonde.fr/smart-cities...rop-souvent-deconnectees_6142352_4811534.html)

 

[Russel]

It seems many of these stations were built in the hope of large housing estates being built around them, maybe, we need a system where stations can be mothballed easier until the demand for them is there?

Or, does it need to be easier to close stations that clearly no longer serve a purpose, Teeside Airport et...?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Edit not Kingsway but Princes Road.

Princess Road (a.k.a. Princess Parkway) presumably?

 

[The exile]

It seems many of these stations were built in the hope of large housing estates being built around them, maybe, we need a system where stations can be mothballed easier until the demand for them is there?

Or, does it need to be easier to close stations that clearly no longer serve a purpose, Teeside Airport et...?

Any transport infrastructure built to serve a new development needs to be up and running from the word go otherwise people develop alternative travel habits that are then hard to break. If that means running almost empty for a bit, then so be it - developers ought to have to contribute a subsidy until a certain percentage of a development is occupied- thus also providing an incentive to get on with it.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Soham was a vanity project for James Palmer. He was the first mayor of Cambridgeshire and Peterborough, and came from Soham.

Usage is respectable in comparison with other local stations, but whether that level of usage justifies the cost of building a new station is a different question.

Perhaps, but the question I would ask of Soham is not "does a town of 12,000 on an existing railway line deserve a station?" but "why does it cost £18.6m to build that station?".