West Lothian buses

[Gingerbus1991]

I’ve always assumed that the 38 was really meant for lots of overlapping local journeys. Do many people even travel across Falkirk or Linlithgow? A few concessions or bus nuts might do Falkirk or Linlithgow into Edinburgh, but for anyone else there’s the train. Not sure if there’s any market for longer distance Green Arrows (ie to Stirling). Citylink’s 909 is always being tinkered with, suggesting it isn’t the strongest performer. I suspect the Green Arrow has come too late to benefit from Scotrail’s woes. For much of last winter the rail service was terrible with drivers taken off for training, but things have improved a lot since about Easter. I suggested to a colleague who lives in Linlithgow that she might want to try the coach and she looked at me as if I was mad – M9 traffic was the killer.

The M9 traffic is the killer because government and local authorities won't get serious about bus priority!

 

[Jordan Adam]

You're right - people do get fixated on the end to end journey but the reality is there is probably a load of overlapping journey flows.

Exactly. It's the exact reason why the route still exists in it's entirety today and hasn't been split. The bulk of the passengers do journeys like Sirling to Polmont, Larbert to Kirkliston etc. There won't be much if anyone who does the route from Stirling to Edinburgh, or even Falkirk to Edinburgh. But it's those smaller journeys once all added up that make the route work end to end.

The issue the EX2 has is it doesn't have this to it's advantage, it purely runs off Linlithgow - Edinburgh passengers. A passenger flow which isn't strong enough to make it viable and sustainable.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

I wasn't saying people would use it from Edinburgh to Stirling. In simplified terms what i was saying is the 38 works because it's longer and serves more areas.

Either way I wouldn't want to sit on a streetlite all the way!

 

[Jordan Adam]

Either way I wouldn't want to sit on a streetlite all the way!

Neither, but that's irrelevant to the point i was making.

 

[Driver362]

So much smoke and mirrors on the thread, and it's clear were people loyalties lay. You could highlight the plain truths and there just get whitewashed.

Simple fact is this 27/28 were crap, and were only kept because of Scotrail controls, Original 27 went to Whitburn. The only links that are not provide by First are East Milder or Craigshill to Bathgate. Here is the thing if the 27/28 were so great why didn't LCB fully replace it? First had 4ph LCB only has 2pH. Big Q: where are the missing two buses per hour from LCB? still not happened. I think it's clear the demand isn't there for what First offered. With St John's, where First buses stops it's just stone throw away to the MacMillan centre doors and the Bangor hospital wards. Why do people need to go the Main doors is that the only part of the hospital people go to?

With First upping its game? Has first needed more new buses? No. Has First changed its fares? No. Has first changed its weeklys and monthly? Barely. Where has First upped its game? expect for the normal lets throw out a few extra buses. 21 is not a great example because the 21 wasn't the only direct bus between Whitburn and Armadale. Remember the No6, the council could have used the 30min layover to provide an extra trip but there was no demand, Why would extending the X18 to Fauldhouse help? 26 is still faster and ( went the way of the old 20) you can't run buses like throwing seeds. Back in August 2018 First got alot of responses from people about the changes and made a number of alterations, this part got very little complaints.

No38 is a strange one, it's really is a knee jerk reaction, apart from certain times there is no demand for a 15min service between linlithgow and Edinburgh, 20min would be better. If it was that good Lothian would have come already but maybe it's learnt its lesson from 27/28. Ex1 and Ex2 has stand on its own two feet it won't get much cross passenger help from Lothian network. Pensions might use the Ex1 going into Edinburgh and Change at haymarket but would there do so on the return trip since you need to wait around or just jump on the X18 without having to wait around at haymarket?

Competition is good, but only when the other side are pulling its weight. LCB are lazy, misguided and has disappointed many many people, ( read the above and your see where people have been disappointed ) with its backwards routes and its strange policy of no proper weekly/monthly tickets, and no M-tickets don;t cut the mustards. It's why First still has managed to keep its passengers...

Honest Q: What has LCB brought to the table? It really feels like Lothian Heart isn't in this adventure.

I do believe there is enough demand for two companies but both will need to up their game to grab new passengers IE Car Drivers.

Keep taking the tablets cheif. In fact for a bit of fun, pop down our yard and tell my boss he's lazy, once he's picked himself up from the floor he'll show you the door. smoke and mirrors lol

 

[overthewater]

Good for you, your loyalties are with LCB so your always one sided. Im no fan of First but I'll hold my hands up and say there better than LCB right now. ( I have over six years of saying First are crap so to defend them now means something) I'm not the only one who thinks LCB is smoking something weird..... Most of us are extremely disappointed with LCB and its conduct with West Lothian over the past 10 Months. The bus War could have been over and done with by now, but no Lothian is taken passengers for a ride with is over priced weekly tickets etc and backwards routes.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Good for you, your loyalties are with LCB so your always one sided. Im no fan of First but I'll hold my hands up and say there better than LCB right now. ( I have over six years of saying First are crap so to defend them now means something) I'm not the only one who thinks LCB is smoking something weird..... Most of us are extremely disappointed with LCB and its conduct with West Lothian over the past 10 Months. The bus War could have been over and done with by now, but no Lothian is taken passengers for a ride with is over priced weekly tickets etc and backwards routes.

What passengers?

I know i'll get backfire from the fanboys for this but it's purely intended as sarcasm...

 

[alchemy]

What on earth is a backward route?

 

[overthewater]

What on earth is a backward route?

X17, Ex1,Ex2, 281, 287


280 is just a carbon copy of First 25.. it seems only First can copy other peoples routes..

 

[alchemy]

X17, Ex1,Ex2, 281, 287


280 is just a carbon copy of First 25.. it seems only First can copy other peoples routes..

But backward??

 

[Jordan Adam]

What on earth is a backward route?

But backward??

"Backwards" in that context means something done wrong.

I really hope you genuinely didn't know what it meant as some of the replies from a certain group of members to specifically OTW's post on here regarding wording and/or one letter typos which are clearly still understandable are simply getting petty beyond believe now.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

X17, Ex1,Ex2, 281, 287


280 is just a carbon copy of First 25.. it seems only First can copy other peoples routes..

So would that make the X18, X27/X28 and 275 non backwards routes? Again the X27/X28 isent original despite the changes within the city and the X18 is practically an all day 20. and the 275 is pretty much the most original route out of them all.

 

[overthewater]

So would that make the X18, X27/X28 and 275 non backwards routes? Again the X27/X28 isent original despite the changes within the city and the X18 is practically an all day 20. and the 275 is pretty much the most original route out of them all.

Im not going to waste my time if your going to more goals poss.. I never mentioned the X27/28 or 275. Your mist out Ex1,2, 281 and 287... that a bit back handed.. If the X27/X28 was so great why are there not back to every 15mins like When First operated the routes?

 

[alchemy]

"Backwards" in that context means something done wrong.

I really hope you genuinely didn't know what it meant as some of the replies from a certain group of members to specifically OTW's post on here regarding wording and/or one letter typos which are clearly still understandable are simply getting petty beyond believe now.

I honestly cant believe that anyone doing an English exam would get a mark for " backward means done wrong" in any context

 

[TheEastCoaster]

Im not going to waste my time if your going to more goals poss.. I never mentioned the X27/28 or 275. Your mist out Ex1,2, 281 and 287... that a bit back handed.. If the X27/X28 was so great why are there not back to every 15mins like When First operated the routes?

I was only referring the ones you missed out in particular just because I was curious as to why you never mentioned them in the first place, I mean I don’t know why the frequency for the X27/X28 hasn’t been increased although they put the 280 up to every 20 minutes compared to all their other services. I can only comment on the services that serve the city since I’m not a West Lothian local, i can only say that the X27/X28 looks to be more popular compared to the X17/X18 from whenever I’ve seen it, but it’s not like I can watch from a guard tower and see every service and count the passenger numbers now can I haha!

 

[overthewater]

I would suggest coming to Livingston for the day and watch some buses and do some shopping. It's strange that the 280 is doing well and it's the only route to be increased, of course its Carbon copy of the 25s which are every 15mins. Lothian has thrown out a lot of seeds and are hopping to pick up passengers. Tell me why would you use LCB in deans or Knightsbridge, when you can use a faster service operated by first and also get a cheaper Weekly ticket? First were told off for running everything via Howden or Craigshills that will its buses operate faster routes. LCB hasn't learnt that lesson. 281 and X17 come along because it wanted that piece of action down to West Calder.. I'm starting to get fed up with late running X17 and X18 how either one is late is anyone clues during the middle of the day!

Come on Lothian come up with more original and faster services..

 

[Jordan Adam]

I honestly cant believe that anyone doing an English exam would get a mark for " backward means done wrong" in any context

It's actually quite a common phrase/expression, i can't believe you've not heard it used before. If it's any help look it up on Urban Dictionary.

I was only referring the ones you missed out in particular just because I was curious as to why you never mentioned them in the first place, I mean I don’t know why the frequency for the X27/X28 hasn’t been increased although they put the 280 up to every 20 minutes compared to all their other services. I can only comment on the services that serve the city since I’m not a West Lothian local, i can only say that the X27/X28 looks to be more popular compared to the X17/X18 from whenever I’ve seen it, but it’s not like I can watch from a guard tower and see every service and count the passenger numbers now can I haha!

I thin he was more just listing examples than all the routes he thought were wrong?

The X27/X28 cover a bigger market than the X18, with them serving Livingston. the X17 is a whole different story! I suspect the reason the frequency has not went up is simply due to the fact the 23/X23 exist and there's not demand at all.

 

[route101]

Used the EX 1 today from Bathgate to Edinburgh . Only two othe people got on , and they were bus nuts . The other buses looked quiet . I thought the old station bus stop is a strange place for it to start .

 

[BathgateNoMore]

I've been reading this thread since it started a year ago (along with the related First threads) and have only now decided to join in the fun.

The main reason Lothian Country came calling into West Lothian was due to the major changes that First applied last year and the associated uproar over them - I was at Firsts consultation event and the amount of people complaining about there not going to be a direct Craigshill - Edinburgh route was a lot. The LC X27/X28 appears to be a response to these complaints. Other LCB routes such as the 280 were started due to First cutting most of the buses from St John's Hospital* - the Alderstone Road bus syopy is not a suitable replacement for the elderly and disabled who use the buses most to get into the hospital as the route from the bus stop is not flat and involves crossing the pass of reversing cars (I'm surprised no one has been run over due to a driver not using their mirrors here.)

*I know St John's didn't want as many buses going into the grounds but First shouldn't have cut off as many places as they did.

Users on this thread are going on about LCB being slower than First but when you look at the times there isn't really much of a difference between truly competing routes - the First 25 isn't much faster than the LCB 280 between Deans/Carmondean to Livingston Centre, and pass holders/people buying singles won't favour a specific bus, they'll get the bus that turns up first. People aren't bothered by the 280 taking an extra 5 minutes to go around the hospital as it's not a massive hassle and they're sitting on a bus rather than waiting around at a cold bus stop - on the frequent corridors in Livingston people just turn up and go. It's similar between Blackridge/Armadale and Bathgate, people get whatever bus turns up first and not wait for a specific bus. I've seen busy buses and empty buses from both operators - it all depends what turns up first. There's more comparisons, but I don't want to make this post any longer!

It can be argued that First have the more modern fleet, but most of their buses are Streetlites, are these awful things honestly better than LCB's ex London Geminis and even the 04 plate B7RLE's? Before the First E400s are mentioned, these are limited and seem to be wasted on the 600 route where everyone on it could be fitted into one of the small Darts while a single decker is packed to the gunnels on another route that could use the double decker. Also, Lothian have working heaters on their buses and not the freezers that's a First Streetlite in the winter.

Can't say I'm impressed with all of LCB's choices though, they seriously need to bring the Ridacards out here as other posters have mentioned to get workers away from First - the workers are married to the Week/Month/Year tickets (if they don't drive or take the bus.) The EX1 green arrow is pointless, Bathgate does not need another bus as the place is oversaturated with them - the Linlithgow pensioner brigade might like the EX2 better as it'll save them their £4.00 pass return on the train but again I don't think the pensioners would want to walk from Lothian Road. Green Arrow should have started as one route, the Linlithgow route with an extension to Edinburgh Bus Station or Regent Road. Bathgate already had the X18.

Personally I prefer using LCB, mainly to avoid Streetlites, their ride makes me feel sick.

 

[Jordan Adam]

The main reason Lothian Country came calling into West Lothian was due to the major changes that First applied last year and the associated uproar over them - I was at Firsts consultation event and the amount of people complaining about there not going to be a direct Craigshill - Edinburgh route was a lot. The LC X27/X28 appears to be a response to these complaints.

The X23 covers that market.

 

[Weemidi135]

The X23 covers that market.

But is slower than LCB so it’s not really helping on that front

 

[Jordan Adam]

But is slower than LCB so it’s not really helping on that front

Yes, however the point being made was that (and i quote) "the amount of people complaining about there not going to be a direct Craigshill - Edinburgh route was a lot" - But there is still a direct route though the X23.

In actual fact the X23 is only 6 minutes slower from Craigshill Fire Station to Haymarket than the previous Service 22 was and from Tay Walk it's 8 minutes faster. So if you were to look at it at an overall perspective the 22 and X23 are on par. The X17 is however faster with the X27/X28 being the slowest of the lot.

 

[BathgateNoMore]

The X23 covers that market.

Not in First's original plans - the X23 finished at Livingston Centre from the Edinburgh direction I believe before the consultation and never went towards Craigshill or Broxburn. X23 was changed after the backlash from Craigshill residents. I think Lothian saw the chance to profit from the backlash and decided to run the X27/X28 (it also covered some other complaints such as the hospital and also the few Dedridge residents who somehow needed a bus to Bathgate).

 

[overthewater]

Its called a consultation for a reason. First suggested, the public were not happy and thus first made some minor changes.

The timings are to tight to suggest lothian saw a chance.. This attack was planned before the summer.

 

[Weemidi135]

Its called a consultation for a reason. First suggested, the public were not happy and thus first made some minor changes.

The timings are to tight to suggest lothian saw a chance.. This attack was planned before the summer.

Attack it’s called competition don’t be so dramatic first have been looking to sell up for years lothian are just competing just like other operators. And I know you don’t like Lothian that’s been made very clear but as I’ve said don’t be so dramatic

 

[Jordan Adam]

Attack it’s called competition don’t be so dramatic first have been looking to sell up for years lothian are just competing just like other operators. And I know you don’t like Lothian that’s been made very clear but as I’ve said don’t be so dramatic

It was more of an attack though even if the use of the word "attack" is a little dramatic, especially at this point given the sheer volume of buses flooded in to West Lothian and the duplication of some First routes. Clearly Lothian have intentions to try and oust First in the area, otherwise they wouldn't be doing this venture. First will sell any division if given the right price, however clearly they see value in West Lothian since they're fighting back.

OTW to a degree is right in what he says. First had a consultation, passengers brought up a fault and First offered a resolution. Yes it may not be perfect, but service changes are never going to please everyone (Just look at Lothian's next changes as a perfect example). All that being said, whether or not Lothian had the idea of the X27/X28 prior to First announcing their changes we don't know. However i do personally suspect Lothian had something in the planning (perhaps not the X27/X28) prior to First announcing the proposals. On the whole the First changes were a good thing, they saw overall increases in frequency and more logical route numbering and routing.

 

[overthewater]

I'm more disappointed with Lothian than anything else.

 

[Train368]

Is their any possibility Lothian could buy First West Lothian? I don't really know how bus operations work but obviously First are selling their bus networks in the UK and it would be the best option if Lothian truly want West Lothian?

 

[BathgateNoMore]

Is their any possibility Lothian could buy First West Lothian? I don't really know how bus operations work but obviously First are selling their bus networks in the UK and it would be the best option if Lothian truly want West Lothian?

Possibly, perhaps this is why Lothian are staying in West Lothian at the moment - the bus war would likely make First's West Lothian operations less interesting to a potential buyer due to them having to immediately compete with LCB rather than having a monopoly such as down in the Falkirk area. This could mean if First sold up that Lothian could buy First's operations a bit cheaper than if there was no competition.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Possibly, perhaps this is why Lothian are staying in West Lothian at the moment - the bus war would likely make First's West Lothian operations less interesting to a potential buyer due to them having to immediately compete with LCB rather than having a monopoly such as down in the Falkirk area. This could mean if First sold up that Lothian could buy First's operations a bit cheaper than if there was no competition.

Surely if you set up a competitive incursion, you're making it more difficult as any subsequent sale will definitely reduce competition?