More Delay for HS2, and how should we proceed?

[Jonny]

At the Transport Select Committee last Thursday

Thurston said that current Euston overspend was down to a 1.2B bill for creating access to LUL station without a justification that its taken them this long to work out what was actually needed which is pretty dreadful sate of affairs. Based on current govt plans he then suggested it should open c8yrs after Old Oak Common but Merriman says everybody needs to come together to develop a viable scheme. In between time the site is being demobilised and they will hand back as much of the temporary site to Camden Council.

So Labour can say they will progress the full Y but just delay its completion so far into this century its all becoming meaningless and just politician speak.

The LUL station at Euston is pretty tight in terms of space - you might have to build completely new everything in addition to what is already there (like King's Cross-St. Pancras, but with more capacity needed.)

 

[HSTEd]

Come on, they can't be serious. 1.2B just for access to LUL station? What are they building? Gold plated anti-gravity travelators?

It sounds to me like preparing ground for future blaming of the TfL for the HS2 overspend. It would be politically very convenient for the DfT.

That's what complex surface interacting construction costs in London.

Just look at that site, how are you even going to get plant in there?

How are you going to dispose of the spoil from such an excavation? It's not even like a conventional underground station where you can use a conveyer in the tunnel bore.

Months of utility relocations and disruption.
And that's before you consider the inevitable rebuild of the station when you treble or quadrouple the number of passengers using it.
Why do you think this passageway has never been built before now?

All conducted next to one of the busiest roads in central London.

EDIT:

Remember how Euston was way better than all the other options which were all terrible and unbuildable?

 

[stuu]

That's what complex surface interacting construction costs in London.

Just look at that site, how are you even going to get plant in there?

How are you going to dispose of the spoil from such an excavation? It's not even like a conventional underground station where you can use a conveyer in the tunnel bore.

Months of utility relocations and disruption.
And that's before you consider the inevitable rebuild of the station when you treble or quadrouple the number of passengers using it.
Why do you think this passageway has never been built before now?

All conducted next to one of the busiest roads in central London.

EDIT:

Remember how Euston was way better than all the other options which were all terrible and unbuildable?

No it doesn't, not even now. Look at the work at Bank, or on the EL. Bank cost £800m for 750m of running tunnel, a new platform, various new pedestrian tunnels including travelators and a new entrance in one of the most expensive areas of London

The site at Euston is mostly already in HS2's hands, it's next to the enormous open site which may or may not become the HS2 station one day which makes access for plant quite a lot easier. It is enormously easier than say Bond Street on the EL, which cost half as much and was much, much larger. None of the spoil from the core stations on the EL was done via the tunnels

 

[Geogregor]

That's what complex surface interacting construction costs in London.

Just look at that site, how are you even going to get plant in there?

How are you going to dispose of the spoil from such an excavation? It's not even like a conventional underground station where you can use a conveyer in the tunnel bore.

Months of utility relocations and disruption.
And that's before you consider the inevitable rebuild of the station when you treble or quadrouple the number of passengers using it.
Why do you think this passageway has never been built before now?

All conducted next to one of the busiest roads in central London.

EDIT:

Remember how Euston was way better than all the other options which were all terrible and unbuildable?

Nobody was planning to build entirely new LUL station there. Just new ticket hall and a few connections to the Euston HS2. If that suppose to costs twice the price of the deep EL stations we can just as well pack up, close the shop, and stop building anything in London

1.2 Bln for the LUL station is simply blame game on the part of HS2 and DfT. It really is as simple as that.

 

[Jonny]

EDIT:

Remember how Euston was way better than all the other options which were all terrible and unbuildable?

Perhaps they might have thought differently if they had merely paid a visit to Euston LUL and seen how tight it is. The ticket "hall" is a glorified corridor.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Perhaps they might have thought differently if they had merely paid a visit to Euston LUL and seen how tight it is. The ticket "hall" is a glorified corridor.

Is the idea to have a "behind the barriers" link between Euston Underground and Euston Square Underground? Or is it seen as less of an Underground interchange and really only as a way for people from Euston mainline station to conveniently access Euston Square Underground, as an alternative to Euston Underground, without going out onto the road (together with expanding capacity at Euston Underground station at the same time)? In which case will the underground passage which will effectively link the two Underground stations (outside the ticket line) be easily accessible from street level to provide an alternative public way - for non-Underground users - to get across/along Euston Road there?

 

[Jonny]

Is the idea to have a "behind the barriers" link between Euston Underground and Euston Square Underground? Or is it seen as less of an Underground interchange and really only as a way for people from Euston mainline station to conveniently access Euston Square Underground, as an alternative to Euston Underground, without going out onto the road (together with expanding capacity at Euston Underground station at the same time)? In which case will the underground passage which will effectively link the two Underground stations (outside the ticket line) be easily accessible from street level to provide an alternative public way - for non-Underground users - to get across/along Euston Road there?

I'm not sure, I haven't seen any plans I was just commenting on my last visit to Euston LUL (earlier this year) but it would have only required those responsible for planning the HS2 to Underground link to walk the small distance into the underground station at Euston and they would be able to see the issue for themselves. If they're expecting an up-tick in numbers they will need a larger area to handle the extra people. Especially if they go for the full HS2-phase2 Y that would take passengers from Kings Cross St Pancras as the current opposition would seek to in government. Perhaps they got the ide a from the link from Euston LUL to the DC Lines platforms at Euston NR, but even that is even tighter than the Euston LUL ticket "hall". Pretty much all of my Oyster-era experiences are changes between LU and the Overground DC lines, that is as much as I know. I also know that King's Cross St Pancras (LUL combined complex) was massively rebuilt for HS1 and Euston LU is even tighter than the old King's Cross St Pancras.

Yes such a new-build link "behind the barriers" might work well - I've come across one between Bakerloo and Elizabeth Line at Paddington. However as this is the non-speculative thread I am more bothered about commenting on how Euston LUL is in terms of ability to handle large volumes of passengers if announced plans by government (or political parties who could readily become the government at the next general election) are implemented. From that point of view, more passenger-interchange infrastructure is needed before Euston can take more trains.

 

[stuu]

Is the idea to have a "behind the barriers" link between Euston Underground and Euston Square Underground? Or is it seen as less of an Underground interchange and really only as a way for people from Euston mainline station to conveniently access Euston Square Underground, as an alternative to Euston Underground, without going out onto the road (together with expanding capacity at Euston Underground station at the same time)? In which case will the underground passage which will effectively link the two Underground stations (outside the ticket line) be easily accessible from street level to provide an alternative public way - for non-Underground users - to get across/along Euston Road there?

Not behind the barriers - the plan is for an entrance in Gordon Street with the road closed to traffic, with a link to Euston Square, and then a new link/concourse along Melton St with connections to the deep level tubes and then coming back up in the HS2 concourse. Ianvisits has the details

 

[eldomtom2]

So has there been a delay or not? After reading the whole thread again I'm still not sure.

 

[zwk500]

So has there been a delay or not? After reading the whole thread again I'm still not sure.

What's your reference point

 

[Dan G]

So has there been a delay or not? After reading the whole thread again I'm still not sure.

Well there's two possibly contradictory/possibly both correct pieces of information. There is a two-year "construction pause" to reduce government spending, and the statement that "Euston will be delivered alongside phase 2b in the early 2040s." It's not known if HS2 Ltd will continue with the current design (after spending £289mn on developing designs) or develop a third option during the "pause".

It's unclear if the "pause" includes boring the tunnel from Old Oak Common to Euston, which seemingly cannot be bored after Old Oak Common station is built. "Critical work" required to deliver the tunnel is continuing, so I guess it's probably ok.

Everything re Euston depends on the decisions of the next government after the general election, really.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2023 ==

Oh yeah and the construction of the Handsacre link to the WCML beyond Birmingham is being delayed by two years as well, meaning HS2 will most likely open as a "captive railway" with a few trains per hour between Old Oak Common and Birmingham Curzon Street.

 

[Nottingham59]

I noticed the six-monthly report for June 2023 has been published

HS2 6-monthly report to Parliament: June 2023

Review of HS2 including programme update, benefits, local community impact and engagement, land and property, programme governance and a forward look.

www.gov.uk

"Work is progressing north of Birmingham but has been rephased south of Old Oak Common and at Euston."

Does this mean Delta Junction to Handsacre is still being progressed at this time?

 

[snowball]

Does this mean Delta Junction to Handsacre is still being progressed at this time?

The latest other info on this seems to be a bit contradictory, see #1078-#1083. Maybe parts of it are continuing and others not??

 

[Nottingham59]

The latest other info on this seems to be a bit contradictory, see #1078-#1083. Maybe parts of it are continuing and others not??

Maybe they just mean up to the Marston Box, which I assume is still needed to access the "HS2 concrete segment manufacturing plant" between the A4097 and the M42.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

From the various statements made, it appears some work is continuing north of Birmingham, but overall construction is being rescheduled in line with the plan to build Phase 2a, so that Delta-Crewe should open at the same time (along with OOC-Euston).
It does mean Old Oak-Curzon St will be a captive line for the initial period of operation.
Which begs the question as to how new trains will reach the depot at Washwood Heath - via Calvert?

The report does post the existence of "AP2", an additional provisions statement on the Crewe-Manchester Bill now going through parliament.
AP1 was the deletion of the Golborne link from the Crewe-Manchester Bill.

Costs shown are not alarming, but they are at 2019 levels so don't include recent inflation.
DfT is naturally liaising with the Treasury on the actual cash position.
It appears the award of railway contracts has been delayed while more competitive bids are sought.

 

[The Planner]

From the various statements made, it appears some work is continuing north of Birmingham, but overall construction is being rescheduled in line with the plan to build Phase 2a, so that Delta-Crewe should open at the same time (along with OOC-Euston).
It does mean Old Oak-Curzon St will be a captive line for the initial period of operation.
Which begs the question as to how new trains will reach the depot at Washwood Heath - via Calvert?

There are apparently plans for a temporary link at Washwood Heath to get rail etc in. So that could be used.

 

[Greybeard33]

Passing through the site of Handsacre Junction on a train today, there were only a handful of cars in the work compound. But there was a bit of activity visible where the WCML crosses the alignment of the HS2 main line near Whittington.

 

[Dan G]

I noticed the six-monthly report for June 2023 has been published

HS2 6-monthly report to Parliament: June 2023

Review of HS2 including programme update, benefits, local community impact and engagement, land and property, programme governance and a forward look.

www.gov.uk

Does this mean Delta Junction to Handsacre is still being progressed at this time?

Interesting. Government is indeed going for a third Euston station design.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Interesting. Government is indeed going for a third Euston station design.

With stakeholders told they will have to make compromises.

 

[eldomtom2]

So is it definite that there have been delays then, and those that said earlier in this thread that there weren't were wrong?

 

[zwk500]

Interesting. Government is indeed going for a third Euston station design.

It will be interesting to see how much it's actually a full redesign or whether it's just removing anything deemed to be 'not strictly necessary'

 

[HSTEd]

Well it's going to be some humongous set of compromises to get a build able station design.

 

[Trainbike46]

Well it's going to be some humongous set of compromises to get a build able station design.

Will the politicians accept those compromises though? I'm not particularly confident, tbh

 

[Pete_uk]

Platforms with a glass canopy over?..

 

[zwk500]

Will the politicians accept those compromises though? I'm not particularly confident, tbh

Given that they're the ones insisting on them, you'd hope so! However, given their record I do share your pessimism.

 

[Dan G]

Platforms with a glass canopy over?..

The current design is platforms with prefab metal roofing, assembled off-site and bolted together on-site.

I can't see how it can be simpler.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jun 2023 ==

So is it definite that there have been delays then, and those that said earlier in this thread that there weren't were wrong?

Yes. They were dreaming.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Costs shown are not alarming, but they are at 2019 levels so don't include recent inflation.
DfT is naturally liaising with the Treasury on the actual cash position.
It appears the award of railway contracts has been delayed while more competitive bids are sought.

This was a hollow update basically regurgitating what has already been said and putting off again a proper update on outturn costs for whole project. They've increased forecast spend this year on phase one by 0.5B due to additional design costs and burnt through another 0.3B of contingency. Remember this all at 2019 prices so its not inflation and no doubt at the cash level the costs are even higher.

In terms of civils activity they are making good progress and by now you would have expected the railway systems packages to have been let giving time for final design and mobilisation activity to begin so on site task can begin as soon as sections are completed but those contracts are yet to be awarded. Thus i guess its no surprise that the window for opening remains so uncertain and whilst i get they don't want a crossrail debacle a four year window is pretty poor on a project that has consumed huge amount of expensive design and engineering time on what is globally well honed technology now.

And finally this report is silent again on the rolling stock contract.

 

[Geogregor]

This was a hollow update

I would say this is non-update update. Exercise in the art of speaking a lot and not saying anything useful

 

[eldomtom2]

The saga continues...

Delays to HS2 announced by the government earlier this year in order to help ‘balance the books’ are likely to cost the taxpayer at least £366 million, according to new analysis exclusively leaked to Sky News.

The government briefing also predicts the two-year pause to construction work on a key section is actually set to last 3.5 years - because of the additional time needed to ramp up the work.

HS2 'pause' designed to save money is costing the taxpayer more than £360m, leaked govt briefing reveals

In March, the government said work on the leg between Birmingham and Crewe would have to be put on hold because of the impact of inflation and in April the Transport Secretary confirmed that work has also been stopped for two years at London's Euston station.

news.sky.com

 

[Cross City]

It's almost as if they don't know how inflation works.

Get the bloody thing built, it'll never be cheaper than right now.