More Delay for HS2, and how should we proceed?

[hwl]

The mad thing is that this options appraisal hasn't been done already! Though I'm not sure that tops letting contracts for Euston before determining the construction cost...

HS2/DfT seem to have made an absolute pig's ear of this one.

Exactly, they seem to have been focused on not letting the schedule slip further for quite a long time.
Now though they appear to have gone the other way in that it is unclear how much how much more "no regrets" at not huge cost stuff they will keep doing on the station and approaches. E.g. Hampstead Bridge western side replacement, the new retaining wall elements, on the western side of the alignment North of Hampstead Road all of which would reduce construction impact locally when complete.

 

[BananaRepublic]

If this is true, it's a national scandal........

HS2 not being paused, but being ‘bulldozed’ says insider

There has been disappointment from supporters, and delight from detractors, over the news that construction of Britain’s high speed rail project, HS2, would be “paused” over much of its length, with the exception of the core route between London and Birmingham. However, according to sources...

www.railtech.com

w

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It's hard to see what might be "trashed", as nothing substantial has been built yet between Lichfield Jn (where Phase 2a leaves Phase 1) and Crewe.
The Phase 2a route is currently a series of unconnected compounds and haul roads which are under construction, with sections of ground investigations in progress.
You can see these works (mainly boreholes in fields) south of Crewe and around Whitmore/Madeley where HS2 will approach and then cross the WCML.
I don't think all the route is yet in HS2 ownership as they are still in the compulsory purchase phase.

If the "trashing" is on the Water Orton-Handsacre section of Phase 1, that would indeed be a serious matter, as permanent structures are going up.

 

[zwk500]

It's hard to see what might be "trashed", as nothing substantial has been built yet between Lichfield Jn (where Phase 2a leaves Phase 1) and Crewe
The Phase 2a route is currently a series of unconnected compounds and haul roads which are under construction, with sections of ground investigations in progress.
You can see these works (mainly boreholes in fields) south of Crewe and around Whitmore/Madeley where HS2 will cross the WCML.
I don't think all the route is yet in HS2 ownership as they are still in the compulsory purchase phase.

If the "trashing" is on the Water Orton-Handsacre section of Phase 1, that would indeed be a serious matter, as permanent structures are going up.

There's a lot of design work that will only stay valid for so long, too long a pause and anything that needs to be sent back to the office is a doubled cost.

 

[Fazaar1889]

Not sure where the best place to post this is but..

Fatality on HS2 site in Birmingham | New Civil Engineer​

The incident occurred on Balfour Beatty Vinci JV’s (BBV) site at Marston Green in East Birmingham on 27 April and his passing was confirmed today, 28

www.newcivilengineer.com

Fatality on HS2 site in Birmingham​

There has been a fatality of a worker on a High Speed 2 (HS2) site in Birmingham.
The incident occurred on Balfour Beatty Vinci JV’s (BBV) site at Marston Green in East Birmingham on 27 April and his passing was confirmed today, 28 April. The deceased was working for a contractor in BBV’s supply chain.

A source told NCE that the worker who lost his life was not wearing adequate personal protective equipment at the time of the accident.

An HS2 Ltd spokesperson said: “We are deeply saddened to confirm that an employee working for a company in the supply chain of HS2’s contractor Balfour Beatty VINCI died today following an incident on site near Marston Green on Thursday 27 April. Our thoughts are with his family, friends and colleagues at this very sad time. We are working with our construction partner and the relevant authorities to understand the cause of this incident.”

More details to follow.

 

[Tezza1978]

It's hard to see what might be "trashed", as nothing substantial has been built yet between Lichfield Jn (where Phase 2a leaves Phase 1) and Crewe.
The Phase 2a route is currently a series of unconnected compounds and haul roads which are under construction, with sections of ground investigations in progress.
You can see these works (mainly boreholes in fields) south of Crewe and around Whitmore/Madeley where HS2 will approach and then cross the WCML.
I don't think all the route is yet in HS2 ownership as they are still in the compulsory purchase phase.

If the "trashing" is on the Water Orton-Handsacre section of Phase 1, that would indeed be a serious matter, as permanent structures are going up.

Thanks for this insight - I read that article and was wondering exactly how much of the 2a route could be "trashed" if all that had been done was what you mentioned. Closing a few compounds up doesn't feel like trashing and the compulsory purchases will still be going through as you say. The way that anonymous insider was trying to paint a picture, people were bulldozing major buildings and burning structures to the ground, im pretty sure that would be a much more major news story if actually happening - and would counteract the govt commitment to build 2a and 2b just over a longer timeline which would would be front page news.

I don't like anything about this government but I really don't think there is some sort of nefarious plot here.

 

[Dave_Cardboard]

Thanks for this insight - I read that article and was wondering exactly how much of the 2a route could be "trashed" if all that had been done was what you mentioned. Closing a few compounds up doesn't feel like trashing and the compulsory purchases will still be going through as you say. The way that anonymous insider was trying to paint a picture, people were bulldozing major buildings and burning structures to the ground, im pretty sure that would be a much more major news story if actually happening - and would counteract the govt commitment to build 2a and 2b just over a longer timeline which would would be front page news.

I don't like anything about this government but I really don't think there is some sort of nefarious plot here.

I was musing that the story would be more credible if some actual examples had been cited. One can understand why a whistle-blower may not care to be named (and we've certainly been here before with disgruntled former employees who decided to turn whistle blower coincidently after they'd been sacked) but a story backed by no evidence lacks credibility. Just like all those stories about how the scheme is about "to be cancelled" that do the rounds every 6 months or so which turn out to be nothing but myths and wishful thinking.

 

[Brubulus]

Looking at Euston, just build a concrete box with 5 island platforms in it. Ensure it is strong enough to hold an office block above it and without requiring the station to be shut. At least it will be in keeping with the existing structure at Euston and it will cost pretty much nothing in comparison to what is currently planned.

 

[Xavi]

Phase 2a has Royal Assent and cannot be canned or changed in anyway unless DfT wants to spend £millions more and set the project back 5-10 years. Perhaps it’s not unlikely…..!

 

[zwk500]

Phase 2a has Royal Assent and cannot be canned or changed in anyway unless DfT wants to spend £millions more and set the project back 5-10 years. Perhaps it’s not unlikely…..!

HMG can always pass an act repealing the act with Royal assent. The bigger issue will be how many contracts have already been signed and penalties committed to.

 

[Dave_Cardboard]

An Act of Parliament confers powers on the Govt to be able to do something, but just because the Act confers such powers, it does not compel the Govt. to use them (unless the Act is so drafted.) They can just sit on it, refuse to fund it or cancel the project at any time. Politically embarrassing as that might be. Often Acts for things like a capital project will have sunset clauses in them so that Govt. cannot win the powers therein from Parliament, "bank" them so to speak but sit on them in perpetuity blighting those that might be directly affected.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

HMG can always pass an act repealing the act with Royal assent. The bigger issue will be how many contracts have already been signed and penalties committed to.

So far, the contracts let for Phase 2a are for design and enabling works.
The main civils contracts were due to be let any time now (along with the track and signalling for Phase 1 and 2a).

 

[HSTEd]

The mad thing is that this options appraisal hasn't been done already! Though I'm not sure that tops letting contracts for Euston before determining the construction cost...

HS2/DfT seem to have made an absolute pig's ear of this one.

The options appraisal has been done repeatedly, the results just aren't the ones the DfT want.

Therefore another analysis is ordered, this will continue until a quart manages to fit into a pint glass.

The more information comes out the more it appears the reality is that there is not enough money to deliver the planned Euston station and that is the way it is.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 May 2023 ==

It's not a good look if your shiny new trains on your shiny new railway rock up at some bland non descript boring station that looks like it was made for 10p. The public aren't going to like it if they can't see how it cost £100b+.

People won't really care, they will be too busy worrying about other things or staring at their phone.

EDIT: The New Civil Engineer article seem to boil down to "it will be cheaper, honest". Hardly fills me with confidence.

Time for the nuclear option, open air station with the only covered structure being the shelter for the gate line.

 

[JW4]

Thanks for this insight - I read that article and was wondering exactly how much of the 2a route could be "trashed" if all that had been done was what you mentioned. Closing a few compounds up doesn't feel like trashing and the compulsory purchases will still be going through as you say. The way that anonymous insider was trying to paint a picture, people were bulldozing major buildings and burning structures to the ground, im pretty sure that would be a much more major news story if actually happening - and would counteract the govt commitment to build 2a and 2b just over a longer timeline which would would be front page news.

I don't like anything about this government but I really don't think there is some sort of nefarious plot here.

I think they’re blocking the likely incoming labour government from really being able to reverse any of their decisions as well. If they trash it getting it back could be difficult.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 May 2023 ==

The anti-rail attitude from the DFT overall won’t the easy to rid alongside that

 

[Xavi]

An Act of Parliament confers powers on the Govt to be able to do something, but just because the Act confers such powers, it does not compel the Govt. to use them (unless the Act is so drafted.) They can just sit on it, refuse to fund it or cancel the project at any time. Politically embarrassing as that might be. Often Acts for things like a capital project will have sunset clauses in them so that Govt. cannot win the powers therein from Parliament, "bank" them so to speak but sit on them in perpetuity blighting those that might be directly affected.

Yes, indeed. One key point to note is government cannot tweak Ph 2a without starting the process all over again. The Royal Assent is for the exact line of route and nothing else.

 

[Dave_Cardboard]

Yes, indeed. One key point to note is government cannot tweak Ph 2a without starting the process all over again. The Royal Assent is for the exact line of route and nothing else.

Interesting to note (at time of writing) some people and parish councils are calling for the line of route for Phase2B to be changed "because reasons" (salt mines seems to be one of their favourites) despite the fact that the Committee has no power to order such a change.

When The Mayor of Manchester and his councils present, I wonder whether they will continue to lobby for an underground "through" station despite the fact that it is also is outside the remit of the Committee to order it.

Whilst one could imagine (although I am surprised) a parish council does not fully understand the Parliamentary process, Mayor Burnham (a former MP) has no such excuse so it will be interesting to see whether he uses his time before the Committee to try and achieve something practical for those he represents or whether he'll use is as an opportunity for some political grandstanding.

Popcorn on standby...

 

[Xavi]

Interesting to note (at time of writing) some people and parish councils are calling for the line of route for Phase2B to be changed "because reasons" (salt mines seems to be one of their favourites) despite the fact that the Committee has no power to order such a change.

When The Mayor of Manchester and his councils present, I wonder whether they will continue to lobby for an underground "through" station despite the fact that it is also is outside the remit of the Committee to order it.

Whilst one could imagine (although I am surprised) a parish council does not fully understand the Parliamentary process, Mayor Burnham (a former MP) has no such excuse so it will be interesting to see whether he uses his time before the Committee to try and achieve something practical for those he represents or whether he'll use is as an opportunity for some political grandstanding.

Popcorn on standby...

Phase 2b does does not have Royal Assent, so can be altered without restarting the process.

 

[Dave_Cardboard]

Phase 2b does does not have Royal Assent, so can be altered without restarting the process.

Not in any substantial way - the "principle" of the Bill is established on passing the 2nd Reading vote in the Commons, which in the case of HS2 Phase2B includes things like the line of route, number and location of stations, depots, etc. Any variance outside the "limits of deviation" as defined in the plans submitted with the Bill would require the legislation to be redrawn or new legislation, new statutory consultation periods, new environmental statements and a new vote (at least on the amendments) and probably other legal/statutory/Parliamentary processes I haven't remembered as write this. It's not quite "restarting the process" but it's well on the way to it and would cause years of delay.

 

[Dan G]

Is it me, or is the six-monthly construction update well overdue?

 

[Snow1964]

Is it me, or is the six-monthly construction update well overdue?

Election purdah won't delay a factual summary of the past, or of form next few months continue building X and Y. But a look forward might be on risky ground (from purdah) if it starts listing local improvements that were not previously mentioned.

Get local elections out of the way, (and Coronation weekend), and hopefully back to normal on announcements next week.

 

[Xavi]

Not in any substantial way - the "principle" of the Bill is established on passing the 2nd Reading vote in the Commons, which in the case of HS2 Phase2B includes things like the line of route, number and location of stations, depots, etc. Any variance outside the "limits of deviation" as defined in the plans submitted with the Bill would require the legislation to be redrawn or new legislation, new statutory consultation periods, new environmental statements and a new vote (at least on the amendments) and probably other legal/statutory/Parliamentary processes I haven't remembered as write this. It's not quite "restarting the process" but it's well on the way to it and would cause years of delay.

That’s right, it’s the “principle” (not the final) which is established in the 2nd reading which not the same as Royal Assent (2a). Many of the processes are not completed or even started for 2b.

 

[Dan G]

It's not purdah. Local elections don't affect national government so it doesn't apply.

The update was due in March anyway

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is it me, or is the six-monthly construction update well overdue?

It was posted as coming in "May" some time ago.
I imagine a lot of care will be taken over its wording.
The DfT ministerial team in charge has changed as well.

 

[Nottingham59]

It's not purdah. Local elections don't affect national government so it doesn't apply.

Perhaps. But the government may still use purdah as an excuse for not publishing a potentially embarrassing story until after the election.

 

[Dan G]

It was posted as coming in "May" some time ago.
I imagine a lot of care will be taken over its wording.
The DfT ministerial team in charge has changed as well.

Thank you

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What's the state of the Princes Risborough-Aylesbury closure to connect the HS2 deviation and overbridge?
The HS2 construction update for March posted an 8-week closure about now, but there's nothing on the NRE or Chiltern sites about it.
Or has the Nuneham rebuild knocked it on the head for now?

 

[The Planner]

What's the state of the Princes Risborough-Aylesbury closure to connect the HS2 deviation and overbridge?
The HS2 construction update for March posted an 8-week closure about now, but there's nothing on the NRE or Chiltern sites about it.
Or has the Nuneham rebuild knocked it on the head for now?

It has been moved later, not because of Nuneham though.

 

[Greybeard33]

A story on building.co.uk, which has apparently been confirmed by HS2 Ltd, says that Phase One work north of Birmingham is being delayed two years:

https://www.building.co.uk/news/mor...e-out-of-birmingham-finalised/5123217.article

Work on a section of the planned route between the HS2 station at Birmingham Curzon Street and Handsacre in Staffordshire, where the railway is set to join the existing West Coast Main Line, is being slowed down in the wake of transport secretary Mark Harper’s announcement in March.

The latest work to be affected is on phase one and runs across a 30km-long stretch between Curdworth in north Warwickshire and Handsacre and is being carried out by the Balfour Beatty Vinci joint venture, two of the three firms building the new station at Old Oak Common.

Earthworks and preparatory works that are already underway, such as utilities diversions, will be completed while some new work will also start.

But in an email sent out last week, and seen by Building, BBV staff were told that a “HS2 instruction informs BBV that we are to stop, or not start, a number of work packages in Mainline North. We understand that the works which are to stop, or not start, are to be deferred for approximately two years.”

The email adds: “The instruction also directs that we stop design activity on assets we’re not continuing to work on.

“Having now received this instruction, we are required to act responsibly and at pace. This means that work must safely stop on a number of assets.”

The number of jobs under threat has not been spelt out but in a statement, a HS2 spokesperson said: “Some work on this section will be rephased but construction works that are already underway, critical utility works and the majority of earthworks will continue as planned, in addition to new work starting. We are working closely with our supply chain to implement these changes and will keep local communities informed. We are continuing to work with our contractors to understand the impact on roles on the project. Where possible, redeployment is the preferred option.”

Since Phase 2a has already been delayed by two years, I guess this could mean that the scheduled opening date for the Handsacre link will now be delayed to become the same as that for Phase 2a. This would leave the Handsacre link vulnerable to outright cancellation, because it would not be used at all until Euston opens, and then only for 1tph to Stoke.

 

[Fazaar1889]

A story on building.co.uk, which has apparently been confirmed by HS2 Ltd, says that Phase One work north of Birmingham is being delayed two years:

https://www.building.co.uk/news/mor...e-out-of-birmingham-finalised/5123217.article

Since Phase 2a has already been delayed by two years, I guess this could mean that the scheduled opening date for the Handsacre link will now be delayed to become the same as that for Phase 2a. This would leave the Handsacre link vulnerable to outright cancellation, because it would not be used at all until Euston opens, and then only for 1tph to Stoke.

see you guys in 50 years when HS2 is finally finished

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The apparent 2-year delay to "mainline north" to align with Phase 2a, takes us back to the stoppage of work near Handsacre on the day after Mark Harper's announcement.
It would be nice to have some confirmation of all this, rather than being drip-fed via the contractors.
Without a WCML link, HS2 is going to have just 3tph to Curzon St initially, until the route to the north is available.
Work could be slowed in other areas too to match 3tph (rolling stock, station platforms/facilities etc).