Ideas to solve Thameslink reliability by reducing its network

[PGAT]

Maybe East Croydon platform 5 could work instead, with the Watford Jct service cut back to Clapham Junction.

Still squeezing in a bit. Also have to remember that the Caterhams via Norbury also terminate there. Probably South Croydon Plat 4 would work.

 

[SE%Traveller]

00 Bedford to Brighton
05 Hertford to Orpington
07.5 St Albans to Sutton via Mitcham
10 Bedford to Horsham
15 Cambridge to Brighton
17.5 St Albans to West Croydon via Crystal Palace
20 Bedford to Reigate
25 Welwyn to Sevenoaks
27.5 St Albans to West Croydon via Crystal Palace
30 Bedford to Brighton
35 Hertford to Orpington
37.5 St Albans to Sutton via Mitcham
40 Bedford to Horsham
45 Cambridge to Brighton
47.5 St Albans to West Croydon via Crystal Palace
50 Bedford to Reigate
55 Welwyn to Sevenoaks
57.5 St Albans to West Croydon via Crystal Palace

Could you not swap Welwyn to Sevenoaks with Bedford to Brighton in your run order and give both an an even 15 min Orpingtons and Brighton's respectively?

Presumably the St Allans to Sutton then for the Blackfriars terminators via Wimbledon?

Think 6 tph through Herne Hill will be a problem.

Hertford loop can't even take 8 car trains, maximum is 6 cars.

i didn't realise this, is it all of them or just a few? the 700s have SDO (the rear carriage never opens at platform 1 Elephant & Castle) so just wondering if a flyer or not...

 

[London Trains]

Hertford North is impossible because of the bridge at the north end and the points into the carriage sidings at the south end.

Sorry, missed that bit! But presumably still running through at Sutton?

If there is absolutely no way of extending the platforms, then run the Thameslink onwards to Stevenage and use SDO at Hertford North. The GN service can terminate at Hertford North.

Yes they would still run through at Sutton. I can't see any other way of running these services without destroying services towards Epsom.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Sep 2022 ==

Still squeezing in a bit. Also have to remember that the Caterhams via Norbury also terminate there. Probably South Croydon Plat 4 would work.

Simple solution there, extend those back to Caterham again!

 

[PGAT]

If there is absolutely no way of extending the platforms, then run the Thameslink onwards to Stevenage and use SDO at Hertford North. The GN service can terminate at Hertford North.

Yes they would still run through at Sutton. I can't see any other way of running these services without destroying services towards Epsom.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Sep 2022 ==


Simple solution there, extend those back to Caterham again!

That would require some units to replace the class 455s which haven’t been provided yet

 

[London Trains]

Could you not swap Welwyn to Sevenoaks with Bedford to Brighton in your run order and give both an an even 15 min Orpingtons and Brighton's respectively?

Sevenoaks and Orpington are currently split 20-10 min intervals as this allows a fast Southeastern service to Victoria to use the Catford loop, and I was avoiding changing that.

Additionally if Sevenoaks/Orpington was an even 15 mins then an even 4tph couldn't run to Welwyn or Hertford as Thameslink and Moorgate services would need the same paths on the Finsbury Park to Alexandra Palace section of the ECML.

 

[JonathanH]

Before getting too excited about any proposals, note that there is no money for more 700s and no money for any infrastructure work in this area so it all needs to fit within existing operational and infrastructure constraints.

 

[London Trains]

That would require some units to replace the class 455s which haven’t been provided yet

Cutting back the Watford Junction service to Clapham Junction saves a unit. Given some metro services are unnecessarily running 12 coaches now, there are definitely a couple of extra units spare as well.

 

[Magdalia]

i didn't realise this, is it all of them or just a few? the 700s have SDO (the rear carriage never opens at platform 1 Elephant & Castle) so just wondering if a flyer or not...

If there is absolutely no way of extending the platforms, then run the Thameslink onwards to Stevenage and use SDO at Hertford North. The GN service can terminate at Hertford North.

Ever since electrification Hertford loop trains have always been maximum 6 cars, either 2*313 or 1*717, because that's how long the platforms are between Drayton Park and Moorgate. I don't know for sure, but I expect that the new bay platform 5 at Stevenage is 6 cars too.

The only place on the loop that I think might be feasible for turning 8 cars is Gordon Hill, but it would take some major rebuilding.

 

[PGAT]

Before getting too excited about any proposals, note that there is no money for more 700s and no money for any infrastructure work in this area so it all needs to fit within existing operational and infrastructure constraints.

Exactly. You can not improve right now, only compromise and optimise.

 

[WizCastro197]

Before getting too excited about any proposals, note that there is no money for more 700s and no money for any infrastructure work in this area so it all needs to fit within existing operational and infrastructure constraints.

Yes I was about to say. Reigate proposal isn’t going forward. And extending platforms also too expensive.

Cutting back the Watford Junction service to Clapham Junction saves a unit. Given some metro services are unnecessarily running 12 coaches now, there are definitely a couple of extra units spare as well.

I know this isn’t the post that it is stated in, but why does Redhill need to have 2 Bedfords with Identical calling pattern. Unless I have misread it.
Maybe the Reigate one is fast and the other isn’t?


IMHO, the service pattern around Redhill doesn’t need to be altered too much considering most issues spur out of the ECML. The fast Redhill-Bedfords missing Merstham and C.South is great way to reach the core.
Both PBOs and Bedfords as well as Victoria Seevices are all very popular.

 

[Magdalia]

Before getting too excited about any proposals, note that there is no money for more 700s and no money for any infrastructure work in this area so it all needs to fit within existing operational and infrastructure constraints.

There's enough trains, because the fleet should already be big enough to deliver 24 tph through the core in the peak. The potential problem is mismatching supply and use of FLUs and RLUs.

 

[PGAT]

There's enough trains, because the fleet should already be big enough to deliver 24 tph through the core in the peak. The potential problem is mismatching supply and use of FLUs and RLUs.

What is the fleet requirement with the current services?

There’s 55 12 cars and 60 8 cars so that’s a bit to work with.

 

[JonathanH]

There's enough trains, because the fleet should already be big enough to deliver 24 tph through the core in the peak. The potential problem is mismatching supply and use of FLUs and RLUs.

Availability has never been as high as expected. Rainham is further out than was originally planned. It would appear that some turnarounds may be longer than might have have been in the original plan. The stabling space is a compromise. 24tph would only have ever run in the high peak for a short time.

 

[WizCastro197]

Als

I will most likely post this again in a new thread in a few days with my changes to Southern, Great Northern, SWR, EMR and Southeastern also explained, but here is my idea for Thameslink.

Changes I have made:

The biggest change I have made is to convert the service north of the core to a 6tph base timetable instead of 4tph. This has many benefits, including that Brighton services can be equally spaced every 15 mins from the core southwards and still run to both Bedford and Cambridge, and skip-stopping services to Luton (currently the Rainham services) that provide additional services to some stations but skipping others will not be needed anymore, simplifying service patterns.

Sutton via Wimbledon services run into the Blackfriars bays, as these services are unnecessary anyway since the Northern Line to E&C is much faster than Thameslink from the Morden and Tooting areas.

My plan requires a new 12 coach Platform 3 at Reigate to be built.

New services run to West Croydon via Tulse Hill and Crystal Palace, providing new connectivity along the corridor of the 68/468/X68 bus routes which are very popular.

Services run all stations to both Welwyn and Hertford, with both lines having an equally spaced 4tph that alternates between Thameslink and Moorgate. Some platform extensions will be needed on these routes.


Service pattern (stations in core not shown as it would be repetitive):

Bedford to Brighton 2tph (12 coach)
(Flitwick, Harlington, Leagrave, Luton, Luton Airport Parkway, Harpenden, St Albans, Brent Cross, West Hampstead...London Bridge, East Croydon, Gatwick Airport, Haywards Heath, Wivelsfield, Burgess Hill, Hassocks, Preston Park)

Cambridge to Brighton 2tph (12 coach)
(Royston, Baldock, Letchworth, Hitchin, Stevenage, Finsbury Park...London Bridge, East Croydon, Horley, Gatwick Airport, Three Bridges, Balcombe, Haywards Heath, Burgess Hill)

Bedford to Horsham 2tph (12 coach)
(Flitwick, Harlington, Leagrave, Luton, Luton Airport Parkway, Harpenden, St Albans, Brent Cross, West Hampstead...London Bridge, Norwood Jct, East Croydon, Purley, Coulsdon South, Merstham, Redhill, Earlswood, Salfords, Horley, Gatwick Airport, Three Bridges, Crawley, Ifield, Littlehaven)

Bedford to Reigate 2tph (12 coach)
(Flitwick, Harlington, Leagrave, Luton, Luton Airport Parkway, Harpenden, St Albans, Brent Cross, West Hampstead...London Bridge, Norwood Jct, East Croydon, Purley, Coulsdon South, Merstham, Redhill)

St Albans to Sutton 2tph (8 coach)
(Radlett, Elstree & Borehamwood, Mill Hill Broadway, Hendon, Brent Cross, Cricklewood, West Hampstead, Kentish Town...E&C, Loughborough Jct, Herne Hill, Tulse Hill, Streatham, Mitcham Eastfields, Mitcham Jct, Hackbridge, Carshalton)

St Albans to West Croydon 4tph (8 coach)
(Radlett, Elstree & Borehamwood, Mill Hill Broadway, Hendon, Brent Cross, Cricklewood, West Hampstead, Kentish Town...E&C, Loughborough Jct, Herne Hill, Tulse Hill, West Norwood, Gipsy Hill, Crystal Palace, Norwood Jct)

Welwyn to Sevenoaks 2tph (8 coach)
(Hatfield, Welham Green, Brookmans Park, Potters Bar, Hadley Wood, New Barnet, Oakleigh Park, New Southgate, Alexandra Palace, Hornsey, Harringay, Finsbury Park...E&C, Denmark Hill, Peckham Rye, Nunhead, Crofton Park, Catford, Bellingham, Beckenham Hill, Ravensbourne, Shortlands, Bromley South, Bickley, St Mary Cray, Swanley, Eynsford, Shoreham, Otford, Bat & Ball)

Hertford North to Orpington 2tph (8 coach)
(Bayford, Cuffley, Crews Hill, Gordon Hill, Enfield Chase, Grange Park, Winchmore Hill, Palmers Green, Bowes Park, Alexandra Palace, Hornsey, Harringay, Finsbury Park...E&C, Denmark Hill, Peckham Rye, Nunhead, Crofton Park, Catford, Bellingham, Beckenham Hill, Ravensbourne, Shortlands, Bromley South, Bickley, Petts Wood)


Order of services and intervals between each service in the core (not the actual times):

00 Bedford to Brighton
05 Hertford to Orpington
07.5 St Albans to Sutton via Mitcham
10 Bedford to Horsham
15 Cambridge to Brighton
17.5 St Albans to West Croydon via Crystal Palace
20 Bedford to Reigate
25 Welwyn to Sevenoaks
27.5 St Albans to West Croydon via Crystal Palace
30 Bedford to Brighton
35 Hertford to Orpington
37.5 St Albans to Sutton via Mitcham
40 Bedford to Horsham
45 Cambridge to Brighton
47.5 St Albans to West Croydon via Crystal Palace
50 Bedford to Reigate
55 Welwyn to Sevenoaks
57.5 St Albans to West Croydon via Crystal Palace

Also assuming with this is plan, Victoria services remain largely the same unless you have changed them as well?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Sep 2022 ==

Availability has never been as high as expected. Rainham is further out than was originally planned. It would appear that some turnarounds may be longer than might have have been in the original plan. The stabling space is a compromise. 24tph would only have ever run in the high peak for a short time.

Yes. Also with the planned Maidstone East/ Ashford services would’ve really extended the network assuming those plans are now cancelled?

 

[PGAT]

Yes. Also with the planned Maidstone East/ Ashford services would’ve really extended the network assuming those plans are now cancelled?

Pretty sure it’s been cancelled but can’t confirm. The route has been split in twain with Cambridge - Kings Cross running 2tph and Blackfriars - Ashford/Maidstone running a couple times a day

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Sep 2022 ==

Also assuming with this is plan, Victoria services remain largely the same unless you have changed them as well?

There should probably be another thread for this.

 

[WizCastro197]

Pretty sure it’s been cancelled but can’t confirm. The route has been split in twain with Cambridge - Kings Cross running 2tph and Blackfriars - Ashford/Maidstone running a couple times a day

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Sep 2022 ==


There should probably be another thread for this.

Yes. I was just wondering wether @London Trains was changing Victoria services say the Reigate extension went ahead (which it isn’t) and their plan comes to fruition as in the Network rail idea, they wanted to scrap REI-VIC services.


@London Trains I think should maybe make a new thread as in their second proposal they mentioned about outlining SWR, Southern, EMR services which in this thread would be off topic.

 

[London Trains]

Also assuming with this is plan, Victoria services remain largely the same unless you have changed them as well?

There should probably be another thread for this.

My plan is to make another thread once I have written the corresponding changes to other TOCs.

But yes I have removed the Victoria to Reigate service.

 

[PGAT]

Yes. I was just wondering wether @London Trains was changing Victoria services say the Reigate extension went ahead (which it isn’t) and their plan comes to fruition as in the Network rail idea, they wanted to scrap REI-VIC services.


@London Trains I think should maybe make a new thread as in their second proposal they mentioned about outlining SWR, Southern, EMR services which in this thread would be off topic.

With a 3rd platform you could fit both the Bedfords and the Victorias, and some could remain on platform 2 if required.

 

[WizCastro197]

My plan is to make another thread once I have written the corresponding changes to other TOCs.

But yes I have removed the Victoria to Reigate service.

Does there need to be significant changes to SWR considering there current pattern (non metro) pattern isn’t as complex and works rather well?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Sep 2022 ==

With a 3rd platform you could fit both the Bedfords and the Victorias, and some could remain on platform 2 if required.

I think one of the main points about the extension was freeing up platform 2 as the Victoria services sit there for some time blocking GWR services

 

[London Trains]

Does there need to be significant changes to SWR considering there current pattern (non metro) pattern isn’t as complex and works rather well?

No, my changes to SWR are only about the services via Epsom since my plans for the Southern services have an affect on them.

 

[WizCastro197]

No, my changes to SWR are only about the services via Epsom since my plans for the Southern services have an affect on them.

Thanks for clearing it up

Would you keep Victoria services from Reigate say your revised Bedford’s come in?

 

[Magdalia]

Availability has never been as high as expected. Rainham is further out than was originally planned. It would appear that some turnarounds may be longer than might have have been in the original plan. The stabling space is a compromise. 24tph would only have ever run in the high peak for a short time.

I hope that we never see more than 20tph in the peak, which possibly saves a few units, though I expect Kings Cross-Cambridge would still be class 700/0.

You're right that going further out requires more units, Rainham being an example, but I think most proposals junk Rainham, either completely, or replacing it with a destination closer to the core.

 

[London Trains]

Would you keep Victoria services from Reigate say your revised Bedford’s come in?

No, I would divert them from Redhill to Gatwick and potentially onwards. I won't go into much more detail as I will be going off topic.

 

[PGAT]

I hope that we never see more than 20tph in the peak, which possibly saves a few units, though I expect Kings Cross-Cambridge would still be class 700/0.

You're right that going further out requires more units, Rainham being an example, but I think most proposals junk Rainham, either completely, or replacing it with a destination closer to the core.

Yeah honestly Rainham is like the sore thumb in the network. Could easily be replaced by SE, and even more irrelevant going through the core because of the connections at Abbey Wood

 

[SE%Traveller]

Sevenoaks and Orpington are currently split 20-10 min intervals as this allows a fast Southeastern service to Victoria to use the Catford loop, and I was avoiding changing that.

Additionally if Sevenoaks/Orpington was an even 15 mins then an even 4tph couldn't run to Welwyn or Hertford as Thameslink and Moorgate services would need the same paths on the Finsbury Park to Alexandra Palace section of the ECML.

I'd have thought something could be done about the timing of the Gillingham Service TBH. It's pathed at 20 mins BMS to DMK (XX:20) as it follows the Sevenoaks Services (XX:17) up the Loop. If the Sevenoaks Service is cancelled it will do it in 15 and languish at Denmark Hill for 5 minutes and that's after putting in the extra peak stops at Bellingham and Croften Park!

The Ashford to Blackfriars Service seems to be pathed much better, it leaves Bromley South on the Fasts at the same time at the same as the Luton leaves on the Slows XX:43 and gets to Denmark Hill in 11 Mins XX:54 and in so doing has actually caught up with the 'Fast' Gillingham Service....*

(*Fasts/Slows as used not as named)

I think the Ashford's are going in December, the last remnants of the Maidstone East Services down South...

all of which to say is that you could quite easily play around with Thameslink timings on the Loop with no Regards to the Gillingham Services and accidentally benefit it. Set the Sevenoaks Service off 5 minutes earlier and it won't get caught, 5 mins late it will overtake at Shortlands.

Anyway, slightly off topic. I'll try and recover by throwing in Rainham Luton via Bromley South in the mix. can take the paths of the now defunct Maidstone Service (and replace both Gillingham Victoria and Rainham Luton)

I'll defer to others up on northern section....



Bromley South:


Denmark Hil

 

[MotCO]

Rainham is further out than was originally planned.

I'm almost certain Rainham has not moved

 

[London Trains]

I'd have thought something could be done about the timing of the Gillingham Service TBH. It's pathed at 20 mins BMS to DMK (XX:20) as it follows the Sevenoaks Services (XX:17) up the Loop. If the Sevenoaks Service is cancelled it will do it in 15 and languish at Denmark Hill for 5 minutes and that's after putting in the extra peak stops at Bellingham and Croften Park!

The Ashford to Blackfriars Service seems to be pathed much better, it leaves Bromley South on the Fasts at the same time at the same as the Luton leaves on the Slows XX:43 and gets to Denmark Hill in 11 Mins XX:54 and in so doing has actually caught up with the 'Fast' Gillingham Service....*

(*Fasts/Slows as used not as named)

I think the Ashford's are going in December, the last remnants of the Maidstone East Services down South...

all of which to say is that you could quite easily play around with Thameslink timings on the Loop with no Regards to the Gillingham Services and accidentally benefit it. Set the Sevenoaks Service off 5 minutes earlier and it won't get caught, 5 mins late it will overtake at Shortlands.

Anyway, slightly off topic. I'll try and recover by throwing in Rainham Luton via Bromley South in the mix. can take the paths of the now defunct Maidstone Service (and replace both Gillingham Victoria and Rainham Luton)

I wasn't looking at the current timetable, which is awful given what could be achieved. I was looking at optimal times for running both 4tph fast and 4tph stopping services along the line.

With optimal paths, from Denmark Hill to Bromley South, fast services take 12 minutes and stopping services take 24 minutes.

If there were 4tph Thameslink stopping services evenly spread every 15 mins, then a fast service leaving Denmark Hill directly before a stopping service will catch up to the next stopping service.

With uneven 10-20 minute intervals, 2 fast services can run directly before a slow service and the fast services will not catch up the slow in front, using these timings (adjust times within the hour): 00F, 03F, 06S, 16S, 30F, 33F, 36S, 46S

 

[nw1]

It is essential that the train from Cambridge to Gatwick and Brighton is retained. This is the most important gain from having the Canal Tunnel.

I'd guess that also imposes a significant constraint on the timetable though, while the old 15-min interval Brighton-Bedford is (at a guess) easier to timetable. Others have explained that the Redhill link is important, so how about the suggestion made upthread of having a Cambridge to Three Bridges (as well as retaining the Peterborough to Horsham) via Redhill as a fourth 15-min interval route on top of the "classic" three? Wouldn't go to Brighton, true, but easy changes at Three Bridges or Gatwick would be possible.

 

[London Trains]

I'd guess that also imposes a significant constraint on the timetable though, while the old 15-min interval Brighton-Bedford is (at a guess) easier to timetable. Others have explained that the Redhill link is important, so how about the suggestion made upthread of having a Cambridge to Three Bridges (as well as retaining the Peterborough to Horsham) via Redhill as a fourth 15-min interval route on top of the "classic" three? Wouldn't go to Brighton, true, but easy changes at Three Bridges or Gatwick would be possible.

This is another reason why my idea which changes the service north of the core to a 6tph base timetable (6tph to Bedford (fast), St Albans (slow) and the ECML) is a good idea. It enables the Brighton services to revert to equal 15 minute intervals from the core southwards while still alternating between Bedford and Cambridge.

 

[nw1]

This is another reason why my idea which changes the service north of the core to a 6tph base timetable (6tph to Bedford (fast), St Albans (slow) and the ECML) is a good idea. It enables the Brighton services to revert to equal 15 minute intervals from the core southwards while still alternating between Bedford and Cambridge.

Yes, that's an interesting idea.