It's more which is the Horsham, irrespective of the northern origin. One could argue the Horsham should skip all stops on the East Croydon-Gatwick section besides Purley, Redhill and Horley as it's travelling further away from London.
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Ideas to solve Thameslink reliability by reducing its network
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It's more which is the Horsham, irrespective of the northern origin. One could argue the Horsham should skip all stops on the East Croydon-Gatwick section besides Purley, Redhill and Horley as it's travelling further away from London.
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R
RailUK Forums
I believe trains can still stop at Purley on the fast lines if they open the gate (same way they do at Selhurst occasionally)
Yes, the platforms can be used, but scheduling trains to stop at Purley gets in the way of other services going fast to Gatwick.
The Horsham trains already cause a gap in the timetable between East Croydon and Gatwick Airport. Stopping at Purley would make that gap even worse.
Good point. Services north to Peterborough are only 3 mins ahead of the Victorias at Purley and 4 mins ahead of the Brightons in the other direction. Still, not stopping at Merstham or Coulsdon adds a bit more time so this isn't too much of an issue.
Minstral25
Established Member
Except that is not happening after December Timetable change - all Redhill's on the slows
Northbound Peterborough trains still crossing to fast lines at Stoats Nest Junction. Southbounds all on the slows.
Trains at East Croydon for Peterborough on 5 January.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...23-01-05/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt
They can't go up the slow as the East Grinstead uses platform 4 at East Croydon at that time. Southbound, the path is now available with fewer trains running to Caterham / Coulsdon Town etc.
I‘m sure that a Thursday lunchtime, southbound from Peterborough, two trains’ worth of people would have plenty of space on a 12 coach 700. No-one would be complaining about it being busy, or undesirable.
What would have been undesirable is running it as booked, then being 30 minutes late on its return journey, which forms an evening peak service to Peterborough. As it was, that ran on time. So for inconveniencing a few passengers at Lunchtime, several hundred passengers got home from work on time. Right decision in the circumstances, no?
I haven't done the move in quite some time but I'm pretty sure an FLU (12 Car).
Can't fit in the reverse sidings as it's limited to a very tight 8.
It’s tight for an 8 car, and not extendable without land take.
You're right, the St Albans reversing siding is 8 car, and I wasn't implying that it could take a 12 car. I was merely trying to use the St Albans dwell time to estimate the dwell time needed for a 12 car at Bedford.
One of the Thameslink aspects that 3rd rail people sometimes miss is the small number of places in a/c land where a 12 car can be reversed.
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Thanks, I didn't have a source to check that.
You will also need to consider that turnaround times are also restricted by Union agreement.
Is that any different to "DC land"? Most bay platforms (except super new ones like Gravesend and Rainham) only take 8, maybe 10 cars, and aren't used much for that reason.
bramling
Veteran Member
I don’t doubt it was the right decision from an operational point of view, indeed if one reads back to what I originally wrote I said exactly that. However the reason why it was the right decision is because the railway has planned the service in such a way, with a short turnaround at Horsham, so that it is necessary to take significant corrective action to recover disruption. It doesn’t really help anyone at somewhere like Arlesey that their train goes missing in order to protect people later on, merely because there isn’t much natural recovery in the timetable, and of course that disruption is now significantly more likely compared to 2017.
I do think people here underestimate the importance of a half-hourly service being dependable. It isn’t if stops keep being pulled. I’ve seen it happen in the evening in the northbound direction where trains are altered to run fast from Stevenage to Peterborough, and I can assure that - even with another train close behind - users don’t exactly embrace being turfed out at Stevenage.
Yes. Large parts of DC land are fully geared up for 12 car operation, especially the Brighton Main Line. In AC Land both GN and MML electrifications were designed for 8 car trains, and only have a few add-ons to allow limited 12 car operation.
adrock1976
Established Member
Do you or anyone else for that matter ever see in 40 to 50 years time the GN side of Thameslink having its own tunnel and converging with (or remaining separate from) the Midland side of Thameslink somewhere south of the Thames?
I am basing this question on the former Metropolitan Railway's Stanmore Branch, when by the 1930s the Met had problems with congestion at Baker Street, with the Stanmore Branch being transferred to the Bakerloo Line. Come the 1970s, the Bakerloo began to have the same problems that the Met had, with the Stanmore Branch becoming its own dedicated line (the Fleet Line, which is the present day Jubilee Line) in 1977-79.
I don't see the cost of a brand new two track tunnel with several stations being justified when there is already a perfectly good alternative, even in a few decades.
Minstral25
Established Member
Thameslink would run a lot better if there had been more provision for 12-car turn round points on both MML/ECML other than end destinations, plus "some" extended sidings in central London where a 12 car can be quickly turned to allow for a service during disruption.
Yes, I know those sidings would have added an extra couple of 10's of millions to the price of Thameslink but it falling over every time there is a touch of wind north of the Thames I am sure it would have had a positive BCR for the cost of the thousands of disrupted journeys the lack of provision has caused.
Having access to 3/4 at Blackfriars from London Bridge would have helped
The trains was over 30 minutes late, the following service in a 30-minute pattern was literally departing Peterborough minutes later and thus having both call would have meant passengers getting two trains in minutes and the delay continuing for the rest of the day. By calling catch up occurred and passengers at Arlesey had a train 8 minutes later than they would have if the original train had called all stations as planned.
When the service is running properly the Turnrounds are sufficient, with built in catch up in the timetable most issues are quickly covered. Look at the following train 9J35 - the 13 minutes late departure was only 3 minutes by London Bridge and zero by Redhill. With a train covering such long distances over busy lines slack is necessary in the Timetable to keep it on time most of the time, so it's not just the turnround time.
Rather more than that.
Besdies there are already two very large facilities for turning round 12 car trains on both the MML and ECML - Cricklewood and Hornsey.
I am sure it wouldn’t!
Hornsey is not a large facility for turning trains as it has a very restricted bottleneck for getting in via the flyover outside the depot, requiring two reversals to get into the sidings. And don't mention the Bowes Park reversing siding, which is mainly for the even more inaccessible Bounds Green.
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Ok, not Hornsey itself, but it is possible to turn trains at the Ferme Park / Hornsey ’complex’
I'd be looking at what could be done with the Northern City Line at that juncture. Already linked to the ECML. Possible divert it after Old Street to serve Liverpool Street and then head under the Thames.
would need to be before Old St - nowhere for it to go south of there due to building foundations and the Northern line being in the way.
Minstral25
Established Member
Yes, sort of imagined I may have left a 0 out of 10's
If there are two large facilities, why are they never used? When wires are down at Stevenage trains from the South of London could thus head back from Ferme Park, and when St Albans is broken they could turn back at Cricklewood. Yet services are always completely withdrawn instead! Why not bus/taxi a few drivers down from Bedford/Peterborough if there are not enough in the Southern side of the system.
I suspect it depends on your point of view.
Thameslink is excellent when it runs, but the slightest hint of a problem everything collapses. I don't really feel as per the premise of this thread that it needs major surgery, just the ability to have some decent contingencies when things go wrong. The lack of places to turn round in emergency is a key problem. Obviously, platforms are not available as they are being used, so a few usable places where 12 cars can turn round would make a major improvement.
The passengers leaving rail services due to constant unreliability locally is increasing. Hearing along Redhill route news that many long-time users deserting as Railway/Thameslink has become so unreliable, with stations having regular 2- or 3-hour gaps when things go wrong. Possible good news is that services to some stations which were running at around 70% of trains actually in service is now around 90% which is a good improvement but shouldn't have been so bad in first place.
I think for those customers the BCR is very positive, the lost productivity to the economy is possibly huge - but I guess that depends how you work out the BCR.
I have finally finished the map. It is attached here in two parts (Core, MML and ECML and south of London) for clarity and size reasons. Below I have listed all Great Northern and Thameslink services proposed by the map, with their stopping patterns and frequencies. Below that is a list of various combined frequencies for each operator. All feedback welcome.
Great Northern:
Thameslink:
Combined frequencies (Great Northern):
Combined frequencies (Thameslink):
Great Northern:
Old Street, Essex Road, Highbury & Islington, Drayton Park, Finsbury Park, Hornsey, Harringay, Alexandra Palace, Bowes Park, Palmers Green, Winchmore Hill, Grange Park, Enfield Chase, Gordon Hill, Crews Hill, Cuffley, Bayford
Old Street, Essex Road, Highbury & Islington, Drayton Park, Finsbury Park, Hornsey, Harringay, Alexandra Palace, Bowes Park, Palmers Green, Winchmore Hill, Grange Park, Enfield Chase, Gordon Hill, Cuffley, Hertford North, Watton-at-Stone
Old Street, Essex Road, Highbury & Islington, Drayton Park, Finsbury Park, Alexandra Palace, Palmers Green, Winchmore Hill, Enfield Chase, Gordon Hill, Cuffley, Hertford North, Watton-at-Stone
Old Street, Essex Road, Highbury & Islington, Drayton Park, Finsbury Park, Hornsey, Harringay, Alexandra Palace, New Southgate, Oakleigh Park, New Barnet, Hadley Wood, Potters Bar, Brookmans Park, Welham Green, Hatfield
Old Street, Essex Road, Highbury & Islington, Drayton Park, Finsbury Park, Alexandra Palace, New Southgate, Oakleigh Park, New Barnet, Potters Bar, Hatfield
Cambridge, Cambridge North, Waterbeach, Ely, Littleport, Downham Market, Watlington
Finsbury Park, Potters Bar, Hatfield, Welwyn Garden City, Welwyn North, Knebworth, Stevenage, Hitchin, Letchworth Garden City, Baldock, Ashwell & Morden, Royston, Meldreth, Shepreth, Foxton
Stevenage, Hitchin, Huntingdon
Thameslink:
Luton Airport Parkway, Harpenden, St Albans City, Radlett, Elstree & Borehamwood, Mill Hill Broadway, West Hampstead Thameslink, Thameslink Core, London Bridge, Grove Park, St Mary Cray, Swanley, Eynsford, Otford, Borough Green & Wrotham, West Malling
Hatfield, Potters Bar, New Barnet, Oakleigh Park, New Southgate, Alexandra Palace, Finsbury Park, Thameslink Core, Elephant & Castle, Denmark Hill, Peckham Rye, Nunhead, Crofton Park, Catford, Bellingham, Beckenham Hill, Ravensbourne, Shortlands, Bromley South, Bickley, St Mary Cray, Swanley, Eynsford, Shoreham, Otford, Bat & Ball
(Luton Airport Parkway, Harpenden, St Albans City, West Hampstead Thameslink, Kentish Town, Thameslink Core,) Elephant & Castle, Denmark Hill, Peckham Rye, Nunhead, Crofton Park, Catford, Bellingham, Beckenham Hill, Ravensbourne, Shortlands, Bromley South, Bickley, Petts Wood
(Flitwick,) Luton Airport Parkway, Harpenden, St Albans City, Radlett, Elstree & Borehamwood, Mill Hill Broadway, Thameslink Core, London Bridge, Norwood Junction, East Croydon, South Croydon, Sanderstead, Riddlesdown, Upper Warlingham, Woldingham, Oxted, Hurst Green, Lingfield, Dormans
Hitchin, Stevenage, Knebworth, Welwyn Garden City, Hatfield, Potters Bar, New Barnet, Alexandra Palace, Finsbury Park, Thameslink Core, London Bridge, East Croydon, South Croydon, Sanderstead, Oxted, Hurst Green, Lingfield
Cambridge, Meldreth, Royston, Baldock, Letchworth Garden City, Hitchin, Stevenage, Finsbury Park, Thameslink Core, London Bridge, East Croydon, Gatwick Airport, Three Bridges, Balcombe, Haywards Heath, Wivelsfield, Burgess Hill
Flitwick, Harlington, Leagrave, Luton, Luton Airport Parkway, Harpenden, St Albans City, West Hampstead Thameslink, Thameslink Core, London Bridge, East Croydon, Gatwick Airport, Three Bridges, Haywards Heath, Burgess Hill, Hassocks, Preston Park
Leagrave, Luton, St Albans City, Thameslink Core, London Bridge, East Croydon, Gatwick Airport, Three Bridges, Haywards Heath, Preston Park
Huntingdon, St Neots, Sandy, Biggleswade, Arlesey, Hitchin, Stevenage, Finsbury Park, Thameslink Core, London Bridge, East Croydon, Purley, Redhill, Horley, Gatwick Airport, Three Bridges, Crawley, Ifield, Faygate (1tph), Littlehaven
Flitwick, Harlington, Leagrave, Luton, Luton Airport Parkway, Harpenden, St Albans City, Thameslink Core, London Bridge, Norwood Junction, East Croydon, South Croydon, Coulsdon South, Merstham, Redhill, Earlswood, Salfords, Horley, Gatwick Airport (, Three Bridges, Ifield, Faygate (1tph), Littlehaven, Horsham, Billingshurst, Pulborough, Arundel)
Radlett, Elstree & Borehamwood, Mill Hill Broadway, Hendon, Cricklewood, West Hampstead Thameslink, Kentish Town, Thameslink Core, Elephant & Castle, Loughborough Junction, Herne Hill, Tulse Hill, Streatham, Mitcham Eastfields, Mitcham Junction, Hackbridge, Carshalton, Sutton, West Sutton, Sutton Common, St Helier, Morden South, South Merton, Wimbledon Chase, Wimbledon, Haydons Road, Tooting, Streatham, Tulse Hill, Herne Hill, Loughborough Junction, Elephant & Castle, Thameslink Core, Kentish Town, West Hampstead Thameslink, Cricklewood, Hendon, Mill Hill Broadway, Elstree & Borehamwood, Radlett
Radlett, Elstree & Borehamwood, Mill Hill Broadway, Hendon, Cricklewood, West Hampstead Thameslink, Kentish Town, Thameslink Core, Elephant & Castle, Loughborough Junction, Herne Hill, Tulse Hill, Streatham, Tooting, Haydons Road, Wimbledon, Wimbledon Chase, South Merton, Morden South, St Helier, Sutton Common, West Sutton, Sutton, Hackbridge, Carshalton, Mitcham Junction, Mitcham Eastfields, Streatham, Tulse Hill, Herne Hill, Loughborough Junction, Elephant & Castle, Thameslink Core, Kentish Town, West Hampstead Thameslink, Cricklewood, Hendon, Mill Hill Broadway, Elstree & Borehamwood, Radlett
Elephant & Castle, Loughborough Junction, Herne Hill, Tulse Hill, Streatham, Mitcham Eastfields, Mitcham Junction, Hackbridge, Carshalton, Sutton, West Sutton, Sutton Common, St Helier, Morden South, South Merton, Wimbledon Chase, Wimbledon, Haydons Road, Tooting, Streatham, Tulse Hill, Herne Hill, Loughborough Junction, Elephant & Castle
Elephant & Castle, Loughborough Junction, Herne Hill, Tulse Hill, Streatham, Tooting, Haydons Road, Wimbledon, Wimbledon Chase, South Merton, Morden South, St Helier, Sutton Common, West Sutton, Sutton, Hackbridge, Carshalton, Mitcham Junction, Mitcham Eastfields, Streatham, Tulse Hill, Herne Hill, Loughborough Junction, Elephant & Castle
Combined frequencies (Great Northern):
Off-peak:
- 8tph to Moorgate
- 4tph to Hertford North
- 6tph to Welwyn Garden City (2tph from King's Cross, 4tph from Moorgate)
- 6tph to Stevenage (4tph from King's Cross, 2tph from Moorgate via the Hertford Loop)
- 4tph to Hitchin
- 2tph to Peterborough
- 4tph to Cambridge
- 2tph to Ely and King's Lynn
Peak:
- 12tph to Moorgate
- 6tph to Hertford North
- 8tph to Welwyn Garden City (2tph from King's Cross, 6tph from Moorgate)
- 8tph to Stevenage (4tph from King's Cross, 4tph from Moorgate via the Hertford Loop)
- 4tph to Hitchin
- 2tph to Peterborough
- 4tph to Cambridge
- 2tph to Ely and King's Lynn
Combined frequencies (Thameslink):
Off-peak:
- 18tph through the core
- 12tph to St Albans City
- 8tph to Luton
- 4tph to Bedford
- 6tph to ECML
- 4tph to Bickley via the Catford Loop
- 8tph to Three Bridges
- 4tph to Redhill
- 4tph to Brighton
- 4tph St Mary Cray-Otford
- 4tph Elephant & Castle-Streatham
- 2tph on the Sutton Loop
- 2tph to East Grinstead
- 2tph to Horsham
- 1tph serving Faygate
Peak:
- 24tph through the core
- 16tph to St Albans City
- 12tph to Luton
- 8tph to Bedford
- 8tph to ECML
- 4tph to Bickley via the Catford Loop
- 10tph to Three Bridges
- 4tph to Redhill
- 6tph to Haywards Heath
- 4tph to Brighton
- 4tph St Mary Cray-Otford
- 8tph Elephant & Castle-Streatham
- 4tph on the Sutton Loop
- 4tph to East Grinstead
- 4tph to Horsham
- 2tph serving Faygate
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They are, quite often, but getting drivers in the right place is rather difficult.
Because there isnt a room full of drivers at Bedford / Peterboro’ waiting to be bussed. And even if there was, it would take time to organise a bus, get them down to (say) Cricklewood, meanwhile there’s 10 trains stuck without a forward driver and nothing moves, even those trains where there are drivers.
All transport BCRs are calculated in the same way - the net present value of benefits divided by the net present value of the costs. The benefits of avoiding delays would not be paid for by the costs of the extra infrastructure; there are far cheaper ways of doing it, not least stopping some of the incidents happening in the first place.
Minstral25
Established Member
Really - have never seen it happen in disruption at least with Horsham to Peterborough trains. Appreciate it is difficult.
What I meant was organise a Taxi when there is disruption to get any Drivers trapped north of the Disruption to a point where they can join their planned trains (and back after duty ends). I assume currently they are stuck with a train (which means they can't) or in a mess room (they can).
I wasn't expecting a load of extra Drivers to be spare - that would be quite a luxury.
To my mind it was a fault of the Thameslink program that no contingency measures seem to have been planned in. Calculating BCR without considering the cost to the economy and peoples personal lives has probably led to that. It seems a lack of imagination on the "Accountants" whose only plan was to minimise the cost. Sometimes you need to spend a bit more to get a decent product that improves revenues. I appreciate that Government doesn't work that way sadly.
In this case, only running 70-90% of timetabled trains to some destinations on Redhill Route is the cost of that lack of imagination, which in turn is disincentivising usage of the railway and thus reducing revenue. Long term it is probably not a good saving on something that could have been fantastic but remains a bit of a failure to many.
miklcct
Established Member
The railway is a public service that the BCR should be calculated with the whole society as a whole, where the benefit is the economy output and the cost is the tax money spent.
well over £100m wa spent on contingency measures to reduce disruption. The conductor bar through the core for example - there has never been an OLE fault to my knowledge as a result. The bi di signalling. The high performance rail - something like 3 times the price of normal rail - so rail defects are much less likely. The automatic reconfigurable signalling power supplies (that alone has saved at least three big system shutdowns). The POSAs - which means that most track circuit failures are not even noticed by passengers (there was one yesterday, for example). The Herne Hill turn back. The West Hampstead turnback (signalled). I could go on!
Happens routinely with Cricklewood. Train emptied at W Hamsptead, into Cricklewood, waitign time for return working, back out South. Sometimes happens for the other direction too. However it is difficult to do with the whole service.
Ah I see.
That’s exactly how it works.
SE%Traveller
Member
My two cents worth. Most Thameslink through Services not much affected, I've assumed Max 22 tph through. Assumes that SouthEastern run 2tph Cannon Street via Greenwich and replacement of existing SE Gillingham Victoria.
Main Focus has been to get more out of the bays at Blackfriars as all trains via Elephant in the peaks are pretty full. This provides20TPH 18TPH via Elephant in the Peaks dropping to 10 TPH Off Peak. To do this I've removed all conflicting moves on the Holborns so all Sutton Trains Terminate at Blackfriars all day with a doubling of frequency during the Peaks. The Bromley South taking trains take over the St Albans Route with an additional Bellingham Welwyn in the peaks so increasing frequency by a third on the busiest part of the Catford Loop during the peaks.
On completion i realised i had missed the new Dartford via Sidcup service. So 1 TPD conflicting move, but it can run in parallel to something on the Slows on the UP at least provided it goes to platform 3 and the other to platform 4...
Main Focus has been to get more out of the bays at Blackfriars as all trains via Elephant in the peaks are pretty full. This provides
On completion i realised i had missed the new Dartford via Sidcup service. So 1 TPD conflicting move, but it can run in parallel to something on the Slows on the UP at least provided it goes to platform 3 and the other to platform 4...
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