Forth road bridge closed completely, effect on rail network?

[Scotrail84]

Did nobody read my post? There will be several additional loco hauled services each day starting and terminating at Haymarket platform 0. Top and tailed 67s and 4 coaches.

 

[Chester025]

Did nobody read my post? There will be several additional loco hauled services each day starting and terminating at Haymarket platform 0. Top and tailed 67s and 4 coaches.

In addition to the two Class 68 sets?

 

[Scotrail84]

In addition to the two Class 68 sets?

Yes, that is my understanding. These coaches have come from somewhere down south and are receiving a deep clean and safety checks before being brought into service. I was told these will be operating from Wednesday onwards. This in turn will free up dmus to strengthen other areas such as tweedbank.

 

[Chester025]

Yes, that is my understanding. These coaches have come from somewhere down south and are receiving a deep clean and safety checks before being brought into service. I was told these will be operating from Wednesday onwards. This in turn will free up dmus to strengthen other areas such as tweedbank.

Great thanks, any ideas which services the 67s are planned to work?

Top 'n' tail 68s ufn are expected to work the following diagram

2K18 07:35 Cardenden - Haymarket 08:33
1Z05 08:54 Haymarket to Inverkeithing 09:14
1Z08 09:31 Inverkeithing to Haymarket 09:51
1Z09 10:12 Haymarket to Dunfermline Town 10:37
1Z12 10:46 Dunfermline Town to Haymarket 11:13
1Z13 11:21 Haymarket to Dunfermline Town 11:46
1Z14 12:00 Dunfermline Town to Haymarket 12:26
1Z15 12:49 Haymarket to Cowdenbeath 13:27
1Z18 13:35 Cowdenbeath to Haymarket 14:10
1Z23 14:23 Haymarket to Cowdenbeath 14:56
1Z22 15:04 Cowdenbeath to Haymarket 15:39
1Z19 16:17 Haymarket to Inverkeithing 16:32
1Z26 16:49 Inverkeithing to Haymarket 17:08
2G13 17:12 Haymarket to Glenrothes 18:13

18:15 Glenrothes - Edinburgh 19:31

68006 & 68007 are on the above today

68002 is allox 2K01/2G02/2L69

 

[Scotrail84]

Great thanks, any ideas which services the 67s are planned to work?

Top 'n' tail 68s ufn are expected to work the following diagram

2K18 07:35 Cardenden - Haymarket 08:33
1Z05 08:54 Haymarket to Inverkeithing 09:14
1Z08 09:31 Inverkeithing to Haymarket 09:51
1Z09 10:12 Haymarket to Dunfermline Town 10:37
1Z12 10:46 Dunfermline Town to Haymarket 11:13
1Z13 11:21 Haymarket to Dunfermline Town 11:46
1Z14 12:00 Dunfermline Town to Haymarket 12:26
1Z15 12:49 Haymarket to Cowdenbeath 13:27
1Z18 13:35 Cowdenbeath to Haymarket 14:10
1Z23 14:23 Haymarket to Cowdenbeath 14:56
1Z22 15:04 Cowdenbeath to Haymarket 15:39
1Z19 16:17 Haymarket to Inverkeithing 16:32
1Z26 16:49 Inverkeithing to Haymarket 17:08
2G13 17:12 Haymarket to Glenrothes 18:13

18:15 Glenrothes - Edinburgh 19:31

68006 & 68007 are on the above today

68002 is allox 2K01/2G02/2L69

Got to be honest I've not got a clue, that's all I was told yesterday. If I hear anything else I'll post it here.

 

[AndrewE]

Great!. Well done Scotrail.
Sam

Congratulations from me too.

It's feeling just like the old days, lots of criticism and predictions of failure (even from people on here) when in reality "the railway" actually comes up trumps and makes a pretty good job given what we know about available resources. Mind you, if it had been somewhere away from the capital in England or Scotland I wonder whether the response would have been as good.
A

 

[atillathehunn]

I would contend that on many occasions they have responded with the same gusto. For example when Workington flooded the Army built a new station and DRS operated FloodEx trains with top and tail locos and MKIIIs.

The only other event of similar proportion was the closure of the Dawlish sea wall. There was no alternative rail route, so they did what they could with road transport and shuttles.

Then for example on the Cambrian when that sailed away to Ireland there were a series of shuttle trains operating and road transport for the rest. It wasn't the same level, because there aren't the same number of people there as trying to get into Edinburgh.

Thankfully we didn't really have too many other problems like this.

 

[jimm]

Congratulations from me too.

It's feeling just like the old days, lots of criticism and predictions of failure (even from people on here) when in reality "the railway" actually comes up trumps and makes a pretty good job given what we know about available resources. Mind you, if it had been somewhere away from the capital in England or Scotland I wonder whether the response would have been as good.
A

What predictions of failure? I must have missed them, both here and elsewhere. And we know what sort of response there was in Workington in 2009-10 - nowhere near a capital city.

So long as someone is prepared to foot the bill - presumably the Scottish Government in this case - and paths for trains can be identified, stock is available to be hired in and staff to work the trains can be found, then of course the railway will be able to deliver some sort of interim solution.

But there are only so many charter coaches and locos to be had and some people, not unreasonably, have voiced concerns about the impact/wisdom of cancelling services elsewhere or reducing the length of trains on other routes to provide dmus to strengthen services for Fife.

The fact remains that no one knows how long this situation might last. If the weather is kind, then the engineers might complete work within weeks and people can get back in their cars and Scotrail's services can get back to normal. If not, or further faults on the bridge are identified, then we could be looking at months.

How long will the staff be willing to put in the overtime required to keep the extra services running, for example? Are the charter stock and locos contracted for other work in a few weeks/months? Will the passengers elsewhere whose trains have been suspended/shortened switch to cars or buses and stick with them the longer this goes on?

All perfectly fair points for discussion.

 

[me123]

How long will the staff be willing to put in the overtime required to keep the extra services running, for example?

It's a matter of national importance. Most of the country is somehow affected by the closure of the bridge, obviously some areas moreso than others. It's also Christmas - a time when people are looking for overtime work to help fund the "perfect Christmas".

Combine these two things, and you'll have a situation where you've got potentially lots of drivers looking for work, and lots of managers/"higher ups" who are being pressurised to deliver these extra services. I'm sure there'd be the potential to increase overtime wages if the staff weren't biting.

As long as the work is completed by the New Year estimate (which it seems to be), then I'm sure that people will manage.

Anyway, how are things working out today? Are the extra services sufficient for demand? How many existing services have been lengthened? Any surprises that we weren't expecting? Has there been any further reduction in train lengths elsewhere?

 

[DarloRich]

I have little doubt the railway will deliver. Firefighting is what we do best ! don't ask about smoke alarms though!

 

[47271]

I don't know about the inbound morning peak but I left Waverley on a Perth train this morning and and all appeared calm and running smoothly both there and on passing Haymarket.

The only hooha I picked up on at Waverley was from people diverted off the West Coast trying to get to Lancashire and the NW via York, or sitting around waiting for replacement buses beyond Carlisle, but that's nothing to do with the Road Bridge.

Apologies to anyone who might have had a bad morning with it, I'm only reporting what I've witnessed.

 

[jimm]

It's a matter of national importance. Most of the country is somehow affected by the closure of the bridge, obviously some areas moreso than others. It's also Christmas - a time when people are looking for overtime work to help fund the "perfect Christmas".

Combine these two things, and you'll have a situation where you've got potentially lots of drivers looking for work, and lots of managers/"higher ups" who are being pressurised to deliver these extra services. I'm sure there'd be the potential to increase overtime wages if the staff weren't biting.

As long as the work is completed by the New Year estimate (which it seems to be), then I'm sure that people will manage.

Anyway, how are things working out today? Are the extra services sufficient for demand? How many existing services have been lengthened? Any surprises that we weren't expecting? Has there been any further reduction in train lengths elsewhere?

It may be 'a matter of national importance' but if people find themselves working on rest days week after week, with no end in sight, then I'm afraid their enthusiasm is likely to wane rapidly, however much they are paid for the overtime/pressure is applied. And the 'perfect' Christmas/New Year also involves people being able to take time off from work.

It is indeed to be hoped that repair work on the road bridge will be completed by the date estimated but there are no guarantees, given the obvious difficulties of working in such an exposed position in the teeth of winter weather.

Various views/comments on travel situation today at http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-scotland-35024589

Passengers at Invekeithing were apparently unable to board the first two trains to Edinburgh this morning as they were already full with passengers from further north. Long queues at the road bridges further west and lots of complaints about cars being banned from the A985 as part of attempts to segregate them from buses and lorries.

 

[berneyarms]

It may be 'a matter of national importance' but if people find themselves working on rest days week after week, with no end in sight, then I'm afraid their enthusiasm is likely to wane rapidly, however much they are paid for the overtime/pressure is applied. And the 'perfect' Christmas/New Year also involves people being able to take time off from work.

Or perhaps they might have a more positive outlook than you appear to do in your posts, and understand that they are making a very real difference to their communities.

I do wish you just sometimes could actually be more positive in your posts - you seem perpetually to be in an indignant mode, and frankly it's beginning to wear a bit thin. Not everyone is as negative in their outlook as your posts suggest.

 

[jimm]

Or perhaps they might have a more positive outlook than you appear to do in your posts, and understand that they are making a very real difference to their communities.

I do wish you just sometimes could actually be more positive in your posts - you seem perpetually to be in an indignant mode, and frankly it's beginning to wear a bit thin. Not everyone is as negative in their outlook as your posts suggest.

If you find my posts so bothersome, then don't read them. Simple.

 

[overthewater]

Extra train from tomorrow,

Inverkeithing - Edinburgh Waverley: 0552

 

[Class83]

Extra train from tomorrow,

Inverkeithing - Edinburgh Waverley: 0552

Sounds sensible, most of the worst overcrowding seemed to be early on from twitter (people couldn't board at Inverkeithing on 1st train) though there were a few mentions of short formed (i.e. <6 car) trains during the peaks, perhaps once the 2 additional loco hauled trains arrive on Wednesday this will improve.

 

[overthewater]

I do wonder why there is not a train at that time in the first place. Even Stagecoach runs buses at that time of the morning.

I take it, this will longer go ahead? https://www.scotrail.co.uk/sites/default/files/assets/download_ct/sr1512_edinburgh_fife.pdf

 

[berneyarms]

I do wonder why there is not a train at that time in the first place. Even Stagecoach runs buses at that time of the morning.

I take it, this will longer go ahead? https://www.scotrail.co.uk/sites/default/files/assets/download_ct/sr1512_edinburgh_fife.pdf

I'm not sure why you're reaching that conclusion?

The national rail timetable will change on December 13th, but that route will have supplemental extra services until the bridge reopens, and whatever other temporary changes are needed to operate them on the Fife route and other routes where necessary.

 

[380101]

It's a matter of national importance. Most of the country is somehow affected by the closure of the bridge, obviously some areas moreso than others. It's also Christmas - a time when people are looking for overtime work to help fund the "perfect Christmas".

Combine these two things, and you'll have a situation where you've got potentially lots of drivers looking for work, and lots of managers/"higher ups" who are being pressurised to deliver these extra services. I'm sure there'd be the potential to increase overtime wages if the staff weren't biting.

As long as the work is completed by the New Year estimate (which it seems to be), then I'm sure that people will manage.

Anyway, how are things working out today? Are the extra services sufficient for demand? How many existing services have been lengthened? Any surprises that we weren't expecting? Has there been any further reduction in train lengths elsewhere?

It may be a matter of 'national importance' but you'll not get any drivers working rest days in ScotRail apart from a Saturday. There is no rest day agreement Monday - Friday in place as Scotrail very recently stated they don't require rdw. They will have to get round the negotiating table with Aslef if they want it. And it will cost them to get it in place.

 

[dk1]

Quite amusing to see tweets that trains should run Boxing Day simply because the FRB is closed :roll:

 

[Class83]

It may be a matter of 'national importance' but you'll not get any drivers working rest days in ScotRail apart from a Saturday. There is no rest day agreement Monday - Friday in place as Scotrail very recently stated they don't require rdw. They will have to get round the negotiating table with Aslef if they want it. And it will cost them to get it in place.

I think there are only actually 4 extra diagrams involved (rough guess from additional train times on scotrail website) and 2 of those will presumably be operated by drivers from the loco's own operating company.

However, I'm sure the overtime chequebook will be available to fill any shortages and a lot of Scotrail staff will be having nice holidays next year. We should be grateful to all workers rail/police/bridge repairmen who're no doubt working long shifts and indeed everyone else who has to leave home an hour earlier to get to work without overtime pay.

 

[Starmill]

Quite amusing to see tweets that trains should run Boxing Day simply because the FRB is closed :roll:

Because there should be some services running regardless? Yes, quite agree.

 

[me123]

It may be 'a matter of national importance' but if people find themselves working on rest days week after week, with no end in sight, then I'm afraid their enthusiasm is likely to wane rapidly, however much they are paid for the overtime/pressure is applied. And the 'perfect' Christmas/New Year also involves people being able to take time off from work.

There is end in sight. It will end around about the New Year. They seem to be very sure of that. As I've said, it's the time of year when people want money, and people will probably be more willing to do overtime.

As for time with family, you've already got Christmas Day, Boxing Day and New Years Day. This is the time that people want to spend with their family. This is over and above existing rest days. Obviously staff won't be working every single today, even with rest day working. I don't know the staffing scenario intimately, but I think there'll be enough interest for 3-4 weeks.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It may be a matter of 'national importance' but you'll not get any drivers working rest days in ScotRail apart from a Saturday. There is no rest day agreement Monday - Friday in place as Scotrail very recently stated they don't require rdw. They will have to get round the negotiating table with Aslef if they want it. And it will cost them to get it in place.

And I'm sure that the Scottish Government will do everything in their power to fund this. The unions are in a great position here. They'll have interest within their membership for extra hours (for money and perhaps to some extent to "play their part"), and a government who can't afford to lose their only link over the Forth!

It's a matter of national importance, so if the drivers aren't biting I expect that Scotrail (and by extension the Scottish Government) will do everything in their power to keep the services running.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Quite amusing to see tweets that trains should run Boxing Day simply because the FRB is closed :roll:

Why not? If there's demand for it, even an Inverkeithing-Haymarket shuttle would be worthwhile. This is where getting the staff onboard would be more difficult, but I would expect that discussions may be happening about service over the festive period (even though it may not come to anything).

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I think there are only actually 4 extra diagrams involved (rough guess from additional train times on scotrail website) and 2 of those will presumably be operated by drivers from the loco's own operating company.

However, I'm sure the overtime chequebook will be available to fill any shortages and a lot of Scotrail staff will be having nice holidays next year. We should be grateful to all workers rail/police/bridge repairmen who're no doubt working long shifts and indeed everyone else who has to leave home an hour earlier to get to work without overtime pay.

Drivers aren't really an issue, it's engineering staff at Haymarket TMD that will be needed. If availability and reliability of the stock can be improved, more carriages can be put into service, running in multiple.

 

[dk1]

Why not? If there's demand for it, even an Inverkeithing-Haymarket shuttle would be worthwhile. This is where getting the staff onboard would be more difficult, but I would expect that discussions may be happening about service over the festive period (even though it may not come to anything).

Good luck with that one. We hear the same cries for trains on Boxing Day every year, usually sparked off by some popularity seeking MP. You will always get the members of traincrew who would be tempted by treble time, a day in lieu & a few other carrots, but I for one ain't going anywhere near a cab on the 25th or 26th. Getting signallers & dispatch staff onboard too is another ball game.

 

[ainsworth74]

Perhaps we could stick to the Forth road bridge rather than the annual 'Trains should/should't run on Boxing Day' argument?

Thank you

 

[dk1]

Perhaps we could stick to the Forth road bridge rather than the annual 'Trains should/should't run on Boxing Day' argument?

Thank you

It's the FRB tweets that relate to Boxing Day so that was relevant in my opinion.

 

[Class83]

Drivers aren't really an issue, it's engineering staff at Haymarket TMD that will be needed. If availability and reliability of the stock can be improved, more carriages can be put into service, running in multiple.

I agree entirely, my reply mentioning drivers was to 380101 (and as in any group of employees I suspect a few of them will happily take the money anyway) fitters will probably be more important (and presumably overtime will be similarly available), I wonder if any Northern Rail (Abellio) staff fancy a month in a hotel in Edinburgh with copious overtime, given they're experts in making the unserviceable, serviceable. Other than that there is a shortage of ticket selling staff and general marshalling of queues, but that should be possible to cover by putting managers/admin staff at Fife Circle stations from 6-9am with a portable ticket machine (surely can't take that long to train them to sell day returns) and contract security staff.

 

[Carntyne]

Passengers at Invekeithing were apparently unable to board the first two trains to Edinburgh this morning as they were already full with passengers from further north. Long queues at the road bridges further west and lots of complaints about cars being banned from the A985 as part of attempts to segregate them from buses and lorries.

Which is why the 0552 has been added in from tomorrow INK-HYM. Difficult to say how 70,000 extra people will act with no warning, hence the extra service on weekdays now until the FRB reopens.

SR have pulled off a small miracle today considering the circumstances.

I very much doubt anything will run Boxing Day as there's engineering works at Haymarket junctions.

 

[380101]

I agree entirely, my reply mentioning drivers was to 380101 (and as in any group of employees I suspect a few of them will happily take the money anyway) fitters will probably be more important (and presumably overtime will be similarly available), I wonder if any Northern Rail (Abellio) staff fancy a month in a hotel in Edinburgh with copious overtime, given they're experts in making the unserviceable, serviceable. Other than that there is a shortage of ticket selling staff and general marshalling of queues, but that should be possible to cover by putting managers/admin staff at Fife Circle stations from 6-9am with a portable ticket machine (surely can't take that long to train them to sell day returns) and contract security staff.

As I stated there is no rest day agreement in place between ScotRail and Aslef for working rest days Monday to Friday. ScotRail stated just last week they don't need it. Aslef don't want it and majority of drivers do not want it. ScotRail cannot just pick and choose when it suits them to have rest day working. Bridge or no bridge, weekday rest day working will not be back unless ScotRail pay us minimum time and a half. And they won't do that.