BTP launch appeal after "abhorrent" attack on train driver

[Mintona]

It's worth noting that Bat & Ball is unstaffed. This likely wouldn't have happened at a busier station further up the same line like Bromley South.

Just FYI - it was an Orpington based Southeatern driver involved. We wish him all the best in his recoveries. From what I've heard, he may be off for some time.

 

[Oswyntail]

As someone who has served in the armed forces in the past and who has members of my family still in active service I find this comment grossly offensive and inappropriate. :mad:

While I can understand your sensitivity, the comment you quote is true as it stands - more a criticism of international politics than the armed forces.

 

[Smudger105e]

Good job you dont live in "our " world then isnt it!

Lets not forget one of our "family" is currently serving 5 years because he pressed a button at the wrong time, I mean it isnt like the 16 year old being drunk and drugged up had any bearing on how she acted that day was it, or the fact her friends let her get in that state in the first place, or her parents considered it "normal" for a 16 year old girl to get paralytic and take illegal drugs was it, no its all the nasty guards fault so forgive us if we have no faith in this poxy "justice" system!

Ok, let's look at this scenario.

You have a 16 year old daughter, beautiful and freindly, her whole life in front of her.

She goes to her friend's house for a party, but unbeknown to you, actually goes to a nightclub in town. While out with her friends, she has too much to drink.

They all leave the Club together, in high spirits, and walk to a bus stop to catch a bus home. Your daughter, together with her friends, are all giggling and generally having a good time.

The bus arrives and they start to board, but your daughter decides to stand outside the bus and pull on the bus doors. The bus driver tells her a few times to stand away, but she fails to to so. The driver therefore closes the doors and drives off.

Your daughter's clutch bag gets caught on the bus, and she gets dragged along the road, and gets caught under the bus wheels, causing fatal injuries.

How would you expect the bus driver to be dealt with by the justice system? Would you have the view that your daughter should not have been drunk, you should have been a better parent and that the bus driver should be let off scot free for causing her death?



This thread seems to be several posters ganging up on PR1Berske, but I have to agree with most of his posts on this thread.

Prisons are not the cushy establishments that they are reported to be by the right of centre press. My wife is a Probation Officer and makes regular visits to Category A and B (and C) prisons as well as YOIs and Secure Training Centres. The big punishment of being jailed is the loss of liberty. Employment may also be a problem for someone with a criminal conviction, look at some of the worried posters in the 'Disputes and prosections' area of these boards!

If a prison sentence is 'halved' what actually happens is that the ofender is released under license, and if any offending behavious is reported during this time, the offender is rapidly arrested and returned to prison.

I do feel that all 'youth' are at risk of being labelled as druggie dropouts, but I also do not and cannot condone violent behaviour towards one of my colleagues, and feel that robust action should be taken against the perpetrators of this act.

No, our justice system is not perfect, but it is far better than a lot of other locations in the world in which we live...

 

[fusionblue]

Just FYI - it was an Orpington based Southeatern driver involved. We wish him all the best in his recoveries. From what I've heard, he may be off for some time.

Thanks for the detail. Hope he is well.

 

[Anon Mouse]

Firstly, I hope these scroats get caught and done for their actions and that the Driver is ok and is back to work soon, such a horrible incident and one that could happen to any member of railway staff. The driver had to investigate and get the kids fooling with the doors away from the train. If he had of left it and not bothered to try and get these people away from the train and set off and one of these 'individuals' had of got dragged along, clipped and seriously injured or killed then the driver would be in serious bother and probably imprisoned like our Brother in Liverpool.

Secondly, I am going to take issuie with the person who seems to have a very liberal view on the 'little darlings' that commit this type of crime, that the current law is 'too harsh' and that 'how dare we lock up criminals'. These people should be locked up, punished harshly, have voting rights withdrawn and in general have their liberty withdarawn (and no, before you start I am not right wing, I don't read the Mail, I don't read the Sun and my politics are more often found in the pages of Socialist Worker than in the pages of the Daily Express). Our system is soft (compared to other Countries), just take that drug mule from Redcar facing the Firing Squad in Bali. We treat these people as 'individuals' as kids looking for 'self expression' and needing a 'release'. We have tried that way and we are now getting laughed at for it. My Wife is Chinese and she cannot belive how namby pamby we are towards anti-social behaviour and none of it would be tolerated in The Peoples Republic of China (and no, before anyone starts I am not saying we should become a totalitarian Communist state).

Somebody also mentioned 'National Service'. Do we really want all the chav's enlisted into the services? Can you imagine if a load of Chavs suddenly ended up at say, Catterick? I suspect petty crime would go up, they would run wild outside of camp, bullying will go up and like Rats, they will take over. I doubt any of our Lads & Lasses in the Armed Services will want a load of scroats and chavs forced to join up and I certainly don't feel comftable with that idea too.

Anyway, I best shut up before I open any more cans of worms!

 

[BestWestern]

The big punishment of being jailed is the loss of liberty. Employment may also be a problem for someone with a criminal conviction, look at some of the worried posters in the 'Disputes and prosections' area of these boards!

If a prison sentence is 'halved' what actually happens is that the ofender is released under license, and if any offending behavious is reported during this time, the offender is rapidly arrested and returned to prison.

I do feel that all 'youth' are at risk of being labelled as druggie dropouts, but I also do not and cannot condone violent behaviour towards one of my colleagues, and feel that robust action should be taken against the perpetrators of this act.

Some fair points raised. Firstly, on the subject of drunk (and drugged) teenage daughters, as I've said previously I fully agree that the Guard in the Merseyrail case was, regretfully, entirely the author of his own demise. I have no doubt he is a gutted, ruined man, who would never have had any intention of leading to somebody's death, but sadly what's done is done.

To prisons - you suggest that the loss of liberty is the primary punishment of being imprisoned. Here lies the problem. I would have to suggest that in this world of ours, that just isn't enough any more. There are far too many who simply aren't deterred by this, they just don't care. We see short sentences, people coming back out having hardly touched the sides, it just isn't enough. You mention people being on licence - again, many just don't care. Watch an episode of any of those 'Traffic Cops' style shows, every time they'll be someone caught driving whilst disqualified or similar, that's just one example of how people walk straight out of Court and carry on doing whatever was they were there for. I would suggest many do the same when they walk out of prison.

And that brings us to the most pertinent point, your hope that 'robust action' is taken against those who assaulted your colleague. It's pretty simple - it won't be, will it?! You know as well as I do, whatever punishment they receive is highly unlikely to make any difference to the toxic cesspit of an attitude that they so obviously have. It never does.

 

[tbtc]

Just FYI - it was an Orpington based Southeatern driver involved. We wish him all the best in his recoveries. From what I've heard, he may be off for some time.

I echo your sentiments

(and will try to do so without going off at a tangent about National Service/ ASBOs/ Daily Mail etc that have nothing to do with this sad story)

 

[TDK]

A very interesting point on which to focus.

455 has made his view very clear. Due to one infamous case and anecdotes, he has an attitude against the processes of law and justice in this country. And that is his right. It does not mean, however, that his negative prejudices are accurate. They are not.

"Lock them up and throw away the key" is an outdated, outmoded attitude which should be left in the 19th century, not taken into the 21st. We are a better country than that, and we are better people than that.

I did not condemn him for being suspicious of violent gangs. I took him up on the prejudiced view that all younger people are potential drug taking thugs. The distinction is important.

So Mr. Clever - If these people are caught and found guilty of assault on this train driver what sentance/Punishment do YOU think they should get?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Sod all this pointless bickering! to the Driver who was assaulted if you are reading this (or even if you are not) hope you heal up soon and get back on your feet (or in your cab) don't let the lowlife scum win.

 

[Wolfie]

The UK is different. We're never out of wars and invasions. We're never out of other sovereign states, nor rarely out of killing innocent women and children in oil rich countries. An Austrian teenager may never see 'action', and so there is a reasonable argument in favour of them training with the army for weeks or months.

A British teenager may well find himself potentially joining active service. That would be wholly inappropriate.

That sort of DaveSpart comment confirms that the ignore button is the only thing for you sir! The Socialist Worker crowd amuse me - one thing none of them do is actually work! - but they are "enlightened" and know better than us how things should be. My response to such types is simple: If you don't like this country do the rest of us a favour and foxtrot oscar - North Korea would welcome you!

Oh, and you ranted on about us being a "democracy". This is only in part true. What we actually are is a party-based representative pseudo-democracy. We elect representatives (mostly from a political party, how many times do independents get elected) who follow their conscience/the part whip (delete as appropriate) in Parliament. How often do they actually listen to the British people? Make no mistake, said people would, given half a chance, vote for the death penalty (failing that "life means life") and much more severe penal policy. Would the "great and the good" ever offer the populace that voting chance....yeah, right!

 

[Smudger105e]

And that brings us to the most pertinent point, your hope that 'robust action' is taken against those who assaulted your colleague. It's pretty simple - it won't be, will it?! You know as well as I do, whatever punishment they receive is highly unlikely to make any difference to the toxic cesspit of an attitude that they so obviously have. It never does.

Assault is taken very seriously by the courts, and if a weapon was involved, even more so. Unprovoked violence also increases the severity of the sentencing, as does offending history.

Personally, I do not believe that custodial sentences are of benefit to offenders of society as a whole in all but a very small number of cases. What we need is rehabilitation and education.

Britain has the hightest per capita prison population in Europe. source http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/uk/06/prisons/html/nn1page1.stm. So is increasing this population really the way we want to go? It's not cheap imprisoning someone, either, average £26,978 per prisoner in 2010/11 http://www.justice.gov.uk/downloads...ormance-stats/prison-costs-summary-10-11.pdf .

 

[PR1Berske]

So Mr. Clever - If these people are caught and found guilty of assault on this train driver what sentance/Punishment do YOU think they should get?

They should receive whichever punishment is considered appropriate by the courts.

I don't believe in "justice as revenge". Some here in this thread want to ramp up punishment higher, further, harsher, which can only mean neglecting appropriateness for a blood lust style power trip. We rightly criticise abuses of power by states less developed than ours; why should respect at home the democratic donations we demand are built abroad.

 

[DarloRich]

Firstly, let us be clear there is no place for this kind of behaviour in a civilised society. The gang of "youths" (I would prefer a different, more industrial word) who attacked this train driver should be caught and dealt with. I hope the poor driver involved is ok, back at work and able to resume his life as quickly as possible. He is the victim in all this.

I think there is a distinct lack of understanding as to how the criminal justice system in this country works. Several people seem to think the “guilty” should be almost immediately sent to prison without any opportunity to defend themselves or with little or no investigation.

The right to a fair trial, and I include the right to a robust defence within that, should be the central point of any civilised justice system. Would you accept a less than robust defence should you find yourself before the court? Would you not expect your defence team to suggest some mitigating factors and/or character support at the very least? I have no problem with someone receiving a defence. Even the most heinous of criminals deserve the evidence against them to be tested and challenged, if only to ensure they receive a robust and appropriate conviction.

The main issue, however, comes with the lack of understanding of how sentences are calculated and handed down. Despite what the press and many of you seem to believe, judges are not fools. That said the judges are bound to sentence in accordance with the sentencing guidelines laid down by the sentencing council. The idea of the council is to ensure a consistent approach to determining sentences in this country

As an example, this link will take you to the sentencing guidelines associated with assault based offences. I would suggest an examination of the section dealing with Actual Bodily Harm. Without knowing enough about the situation it is hard to gauge what offence the perpetrators could be charged with so we will choose one in the middle. http://sentencingcouncil.judiciary.gov.uk/docs/Assault_definitive_guideline_-_Crown_Court.pdf .The judge is bound to follow these guidelines. The guidelines set out what must be considered, both for and against, before handing down a sentence. You can see the range of sentences available to the judge. He must weigh up what is appropriate in each case based on the particular circumstances of each offense.

The question, therefore, is whether or not you feel the guidelines are correct. You should also consider that the CPS will only proceed with a prosecution IF they feel there is a realistic chance of a conviction. This is often why someone will be tried for a lesser offence than it seems they could be. This often means that justice is not seen to be done and leads to a loss of confidence in the system.

Do I think the system is perfect? No, it isn’t but it is about the best we can expect in a civilised democracy. Would I like to see harsher sentences for serious offences and a harder prison regime? Of course. Whilst I don’t think that prison works because it doesn’t, and I have experience form a previous life of dealings with “recalcitrant prisoners”, it is the best option we have. Prisoners need to be punished; they need to locked away from the rest of society. The most violent or heinous criminals need to be excluded from society for long periods. Consider however, that while everyone wants more people locked up, and we have record numbers of prisoners, no one seems to want a prison building near them. Nor does the government seem keen on paying to build them!

It is often forgotten that whilst punishment is one pillar of justice, the other is rehabilitation. This simply does not happen on a consistent basis. This is also wrong as this traps prisoners in to a criminal cycle from which it is very hard to escape because they aren’t assisted in obtaining the skills they need to get out of the criminal cycle. This is why prison doesn’t work. IF it did you would have few repeat offenders when the reality is the prisons are full of them. Note that revenge, whilst entirely understandable, forms no part of our justice system. That way leads to anarchy.

Hopefully, the evidence in this case is clear cut and the perpetrators can be tried for the most severe offence possible and sentenced to prison accordingly. Clear CCTV images identifying the perpetrators and their actions would be VERY helpful! The problem then comes IF it isn’t open and shut.

 

[Anon Mouse]

That sort of DaveSpart comment confirms that the ignore button is the only thing for you sir! The Socialist Worker crowd amuse me - one thing none of them do is actually work! - but they are "enlightened" and know better than us how things should be. My response to such types is simple: If you don't like this country do the rest of us a favour and foxtrot oscar - North Korea would welcome you!

Oi! I work!

BTW North Korea is NOT a Communist Country. Its a National Socialist Country. They are only Communist in name. They have much more in common with Nazi Germany than The Soviet Union. Even China is becoming more wary of The DPRK than they were of The Soviet Union when they were close to going to war with the USSR!

The DPRK would certainly not welcome Marxists, they abandoned the Marxist line years ago

I do agree however with some of your other pointers, so peace?

 

[PR1Berske]

I will take being put on ignore and labelled a Socialist tbh.

I'm stunned by the prevailing attitude in this thread. I think arguing further just gets us all into circles without resolution

 

[jon0844]

To prisons - you suggest that the loss of liberty is the primary punishment of being imprisoned. Here lies the problem. I would have to suggest that in this world of ours, that just isn't enough any more. There are far too many who simply aren't deterred by this, they just don't care. We see short sentences, people coming back out having hardly touched the sides, it just isn't enough. You mention people being on licence - again, many just don't care. Watch an episode of any of those 'Traffic Cops' style shows, every time they'll be someone caught driving whilst disqualified or similar, that's just one example of how people walk straight out of Court and carry on doing whatever was they were there for. I would suggest many do the same when they walk out of prison.

The loss of liberty, or a chance to be in a secure environment (not just the literal 'secure') with set meals, time for exercise, TV, being around other like minded individuals..

..or outside with next to nothing and having to fend for yourself.

That's why the kid I was listening to made it quite clear it was, frankly, s&&t being back out.

It's hardly any wonder that so many quite enjoy being on the inside and seek to go back as quickly as possible. If you had very little, you might find prison the only sense of order and purpose in your life.

Clearly the ones that don't want to ever go back will come out and not re-offend and turn their lives around. Good on them, but let's not have these do gooders who believe that everyone will be like that. Some need harsh punishments, or to be kept inside longer purely because that's the only way to reduce crime. The cost of keeping them locked up is no doubt saving a shed load of money outside.

Now if the kids concerned in this assault handed themselves in and showed extreme remorse and wanted to make things right, I'd have some sympathy. But that hasn't happened has it?

 

[455driver]

I will take being put on ignore and labelled a Socialist tbh.

I'm stunned by the prevailing attitude in this thread. I think arguing further just gets us all into circles without resolution

Why dont you try answering some of the direct questions you have been asked, all you have done is state that fining them doesnt work, prison doesnt work, national Service wont work, so, oh all seeing one-

In your opinion what WILL work!

Also what job do you do?

 

[PR1Berske]

Why dont you try answering some of the direct questions you have been asked, all you have done is state that fining them doesnt work, prison doesnt work, national Service wont work, so, oh all seeing one-

In your opinion what WILL work!

Also what job do you do?

Recognising and respecting the courts independence from mob rule mentality is a good start.

And with that, I leave this thread before we get any deeper into this territory:

 

[mr williams]

I remember watching a documentary on prisons a few years ago and well remember the words of one repeat offender about the first time he went to jail. He said something on the lines of "I was absolutely terrified, and if, after 48 hours, I had been let out I would never have broken the law ever again. But after a week I started getting used to it and after a month it didn't bother me"

OK, anybody can make a mistake or get in with the wrong sort when they are young and they deserve a second chance, but I wonder what would happen if, instead of repeated cautions, fines, suspended sentences, community service orders etc, the second time somebody was convicted of an imprisonable offence they got two or three days in a tough jail and let's see if they wanted to go back there.

 

[jon0844]

Do courts often get influenced by mob rule?

I think if they were, we wouldn't see some laughable sentences.

There is a flip side though; there are often cases where you see people who don't appear to be a risk to society getting incredibly long sentences..

I do think that people think 'petty' crimes aren't that serious and don't realise that being soft then makes people move up the ladder.

I for one would quite like to get the 'three strikes' idea here. Make it four strikes if you prefer. Then you can allow for a couple of moments of madness, but eventually say 'enough is enough'. I think that would be fair and stop these habitual offenders that have been in front of court hundreds of times.

 

[GWRtom]

Nice to see the stereotyping of youths.

Pathetic.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I've got to say here that I'm afraid I think our colleague signed his own death warrant, so to speak. The evidence was, as I understand it, pretty clean cut. She was leaning against the train, he shouted a warning, then went. You just can't do that, or somebody just might end up dead. I'm sure many might have done the same thing, but nobody would really have had any excuse. The issue of her being intoxicated and drugged, at the age of 16, is a concern. But ultimately we're well paid and this is why A very sad day all round.

Well exactly. If the guard had done his job properly that poor girl would never had died. The guard will have to serve 5 years (probably less) but a teenager has had her life taken from her.

 

[jon0844]

Nice to see the stereotyping of youths.

Pathetic.

Sorry, can you highlight where this has happened?

I think it's quite clear that most youths that commit crime do follow a pretty common stereotype, but I really don't see how that lumps all youths in the same boat.

Most kids aren't breaking the law. If they were, we'd have anarchy and nobody would feel safe stepping out of the door (and that's assuming their door wasn't being kicked in anyway).

 

[Monty]

Nice to see the stereotyping of youths.

Pathetic.

I fail to see where youth's have been sterotyped...

 

[GB]

Well exactly. If the guard had done his job properly that poor girl would never had died. The guard will have to serve 5 years (probably less) but a teenager has had her life taken from her.

Perhaps you would like to read the RAIB report again which clearly states that had the guard dispatched as per the official dispatch procedure the end result would have been more than likely the same.

 

[DarloRich]

Perhaps you would like to read the RAIB report again which clearly states that had the guard dispatched as per the official dispatch procedure the end result would have been more than likely the same.

expect, perhaps, for him.

 

[455driver]

Recognising and respecting the courts independence from mob rule mentality is a good start.

And with that, I leave this thread before we get any deeper into this territory:

At least you have admitted you are wrong!

Still not answered any of the questions I see, yawn. :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Nice to see the stereotyping of youths.

Pathetic.

As one bleeding heart Liberal leaves so another one starts!.

Can you post links to 4 posts (dates and times or post numbers will do) where that is actually the case please?

How long will we have to wait folks?

 

[Oswyntail]

....Also what job do you do?

Asking this question seems to be a common tactic on this forum. The implication is often that, if you do not work on the railways, then your opinion is worth less than someone who does. This may be the case if your opinion is on something in the rule book or on the arcana of operating practice. However, it is not the case in questions about society in general (such as the philosophy of punishment, as here) or about practices that are not unique to railways (such as whether customer-facing people should be polite). And, so long as we do not descend to childish abuse, we should all be free to give our opinions here without fear or favour.
Well, that's my opinion, anyway.

 

[FGW_DID]

Also what job do you do?

Judging by some of the posts made, I doubt they are in Law Enforcement or the Armed Forces

 

[455driver]

Asking this question seems to be a common tactic on this forum. The implication is often that, if you do not work on the railways, then your opinion is worth less than someone who does.

You might think that and that is your prerogative :roll:,I know a lot of very knowledgeable people who dont work on the railway and they know more about some/lots of bits about the railways that I dont have a clue about. Just because I see signals every day doesnt mean I know all the ins and outs about them does it.

I was just curious because he hasnt answered any of the direct questions he has been asked anywhere on this thread.

In my case it was just so I could throw generalised, bitchy comments around about his profession like he does ours, childish but damn good fun.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Judging by some of the posts made, I doubt they are in Law Enforcement or the Armed Forces

Very good!