BTP launch appeal after "abhorrent" attack on train driver

[GadgetMan]

I didn't dare say at the time of the copy and paste above, but yes, contempt of court laws (amongst other things) mean that this trail is "live", so we can't say anything much specifically. Not a conspiracy, it's standard (and indeed legal!) practice.

They'll be walking out of court (if it goes that far) with a grin on their face and increased confidence when committing their next crime regardless of whether we discuss it or not. Perhaps the railway should give them a Free 1st Class All Line annual pass by way of an apology for causing them the inconvenience of being apprehended and violated by the boys in blue.

 

[PR1Berske]

They'll be walking out of court (if it goes that far) with a grin on their face and increased confidence when committing their next crime regardless of whether we discuss it or not. Perhaps the railway should give them a Free 1st Class All Line annual pass by way of an apology for causing them the inconvenience of being apprehended and violated by the boys in blue.

 

[theageofthetra]

I thought you may want some local flavour on this story. I was born in Sevenoaks 40 odd years ago and have travelled on trains in and around the area since getting slammer electrics and Hastings diesels to school and commuted on the main line during BR , Connex, & early Southeastern days.

The Bat 'n Ball line as its is known locally was off my radar for years as I never had much cause to use it until a couple of years ago.

To those not familiar with the area Bat and Ball station is horrible. The station is run down, unstaffed and doesn't even have a ticket machine! Despite Sevenoaks being seen as a quiet posh Tory town it does have some very rough estates around this station and consequent high petty crime.

I had to travel daily for about 3 weeks on this line in 2011 and was utterly shocked at the behaviour I witnessed on it. I have been in many places in the London, the UK and abroad which many would describe as dodgy and undesirable and , touch wood, apart from a close shave in Marseille I have been ok. I am a big bloke and not easily intimidated but this line has a feeling of being unsafe more than any other I have travelled on (Wakefield Kirkgate comes close!). This is in part to the lack of any security at the stations, low numbers of passengers off peak and the lack of staff. Oddly it is worse during daytime when it attracts truanting kids.

In my 3 weeks of using it I witnessed numerous fights, open drug taking, urinating on the train (during the daytime) litter chucking and other rubbish behaviour.

In this period I did not see one RPI or other ticket checkers despite the stations south of Swanley being notorious in the area for ticket dodging.

I hope the driver has recovered and the rail Unions will put pressure on those in charge to improve security of all stake holders in OUR railway on this line.

 

[reb0118]

The youth aged 16 of no fixed address....w[as] arrested on suspicion of causing grievous bodily harm on Friday, 25 January. [He has] since been released on police bail, pending further enquiries, until.........Wednesday, 13 March.

It is possible to bail somebody to "no fixed address"?

 

[Smudger105e]

It is possible to bail somebody to "no fixed address"?

I belive it is not, what would need to happen is for the Youth Offending Service or one of their partner services) to ensure that an accomodation address is provided.

 

[swj99]

I hope the driver has recovered and the rail Unions will put pressure on those in charge to improve security of all stake holders in OUR railway on this line.

Same here. But does the rail industry take much notice of the rail unions, or are they just ridiculed and ignored ?

A few words spring to mind here. "Cause", and "effect". And "allow". I'll come back to "allow" a bit later.

I don't know how many of you have dogs as pets. Or if you realize that if you don't bring a dog's attention to it's wrongdoing at the time when it happens, and attempt to punish it later, it will not realize why, or what it has done wrong. This is cause and effect. Dog does bad thing, you immediately tell dog off, it learns to associate the bad thing with being told off, and modifies it's behaviour. But if you only notice it's done something wrong several hours later, it's too late, because the dog won't associate or even remember which particular thing it's done that you don't like. I'd liken this to some of the mindless people who behave like animals on trains and railway property.

Allow !

What does this mean ? In the context of, for example, "you are not allowed to ride on the outside of trains," most, if not all people know that it's actually against the law to do this. But if, despite the law, they did it anyway, and unless the person was physically prevented from doing it, it could be said that they were actually allowed to do it. What I'm getting at, is that in practical terms, these people are being allowed to act like thugs and animals because of an absence of a real deterrent, or any means of actually stopping them doing these antisocial things. This country, and the legal system, is in a mess. I'm not talking here about a few con artists pulling a fast one and changing the date on their train ticket, I mean the nutters, the wasters, the underclass of people who only know one way to be, who have never been shown how to behave in a civilised manner. They aren't scared of being caught smashing up train stations, they're not even bothered that theoretically at least, they can be watched doing it on CCTV. Look at what kicked off in Tottenham not so long ago. It very quickly spread to other parts of London, and then to other cities around the country. A lot of the people involved were arrested afterwards and taken to court. But I wonder how many were not caught. And why many of them didn't seem to be worried about the risk of being caught. And I think it's basically because;-

a) according to their own morals, they didn't think what they were doing was wrong, and

b) even though they may have known their actions were illegal, they believed there was little risk of consequences. The fact that many people were caught later is not the point, it's their belief that they wouldn't be caught which was a motivating factor.

Cause and effect again. Smash shop window, attack innocent passer by, whatever, run away, nothing happens, rinse and repeat ! Same on a train. Let's smash it up. Oh look, there's the driver, or the guard, never mind, there's only one of him, there's 5 of us, we can hit him and run away, and we don't care, etc.

Unless the cycle of cause and effect is broken or interrupted, nothing will change. Unless or until people know they will be caught doing these antisocial, sick, dangerous things, they will continue to do them. To them, there's no reason to stop. But if they knew that they'd be nicked before the day was out, put in a cell somewhere and properly punished, rather than sent for counselling, or on a holiday to Spain, then they probably would think twice. Then they might ask themselves, "Do I really want to risk doing a stretch inside for this ?"

At the moment, whilst attacking train drivers, smashing railway property and generally being a nutter, is illegal, sadly it is still very much "allowed", by virtue of the fact that in many cases, nothing and nobody is likely to stop it happening.

 

[Flamingo]

Good post SWJ, thank you.

 

[Smudger105e]

But does the rail industry take much notice of the rail unions, or are they just ridiculed and ignored ?

I think this may answer your question.

http://www.workplacevictimisation.net/afightingorganisation.html

?

they might ask themselves, "Do I really want to risk doing a stretch inside for this ?"

Do people think this when they shoot someone in the States? "If I shoot this man, I will be executed". Does not seem to stop it happening.

 

[jimm]

And if the police came knocking to lock me up, wouldn't that just prove the point perfectly?!

No. You can't pick and choose the laws that suit you. And contempt of court can be an extremely serious offence. Long, complex and expensive trials have had to be started again from scratch as a result of some cases of contempt.

Well, we don't want the little darlings to be able to claim they can't get a fair trial...

No, we don't. The basic underpinnings of the law in this country are that people are innocent until proven guilty and that people are entitled to a fair trial, whatever they are accused of.

 

[BestWestern]

No. You can't pick and choose the laws that suit you. And contempt of court can be an extremely serious offence. Long, complex and expensive trials have had to be started again from scratch as a result of some cases of contempt.



No, we don't. The basic underpinnings of the law in this country are that people are innocent until proven guilty and that people are entitled to a fair trial, whatever they are accused of.

Bearing in mind that the whole sorry incident has been reported in all of it's gory detail in the media, I really don't think a small number of trainfans discussing it on a forum is likely to bring the case crashing down. Still, best to be paranoid in this wonderful world of ours I suppose...

 

[jimm]

Bearing in mind that the whole sorry incident has been reported in all of it's gory detail in the media, I really don't think a small number of trainfans discussing it on a forum is likely to bring the case crashing down. Still, best to be paranoid in this wonderful world of ours I suppose...

Doesn't matter what had been reported by the media or posted here prior to arrests. Once arrests are made, then contempt law applies, the rules change and subsequent media reports are circumspect until a case gets to court and the evidence is heard, which can be reported. Forums are not exempt. It's not paranoid. It's the law.

 

[PR1Berske]

I agree with Jim.

I've known many a forum/messageboards over the years where "live" cases have resulted in threads being curtailed or locked to avoid contempt of court accusations.

 

[swj99]

Still, best to be paranoid in this wonderful world of ours I suppose...

There's nowt wrong with a bit of healthy paranoia. Within reason of course.

Contempt of Court

For a forum to be at risk of prosecution for contempt of court, (Contempt of Court Act 1981) specific details relating to the case would need to have to be published by being addressed to the public at large, or any section of the public. And that publication would have to create a substantial risk that the course of public justice would be seriously impeded or prejudiced.
Simply discussing in general terms on forum threads, subjects such a urban decay, public disorder, violence, the risk of violence to which people who work in public facing roles face, and the rights or wrongs of toughening up the sentencing guidelines for convicted criminals would not constitute contempt of court. If it did, then publications such as the Crown Prosecution Service’s own legal guidance would also fit the criteria for contempt of court.

Obviously a bit of care and common sense is required. If people on the internet started naming suspects who were on bail, gossiping about them and publishing their personal details online, then sure, they’re asking to get shut down so to speak. But to put this into perspective, look at how badly a couple of tabloid newspapers behaved before they got done for contempt over the arrest of Chris Jefferies. I mentioned that case in one of those threads about saint Jimmy of Savile, if you can be bothered to look it up. Otherwise, google Chris Jefferies and read about it on Wikipedia, there’s a load of blah about the contempt cases and his civil claims against various newspapers on there.

Bedtime reading for insomniacs available at - http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/a_to_c/contempt_of_court/

 

[BestWestern]

Thank you for the above ^^ Adds a little perspective.

We all need to be a little careful on here, not only in situations such has this but also for those of us who work within the industry. However, we are all entitled to free speech, provided it recognises the borders between what is sensible and what is not. We should all be grateful for that right, and not be afraid to make good use of it!

 

[HSTEd]

You'd be paranoid too if everyone was plotting against you.....

*jumps into corner*

 

[Flamingo]

Just because I'm paranoid does't mean they are not out to get me...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Just because I'm paranoid does't mean they are not out to get me...

"Infamy! Infamy! They've all got it in for me!"......

 

[Flamingo]

One of Kenneth Williams's (I think) best ever lines!

 

[Zoidberg]

One of Kenneth Williams's (I think) best ever lines!

From 'Carry on Cleo'

 

[455driver]

One of Kenneth Williams's (I think) best ever lines!

Along with "frying tonight".