BTP launch appeal after "abhorrent" attack on train driver

[NSEFAN]

You and me are on the same wavelength but just to keep the Liberals happy ,
You are obviously wrong because (as stated by the lilly livered Liberals such as PR1Berske throughout this thread) that clip round the ear either killed you or caused you severe brain damage hence your continuation of said physical abuse to others!

Goodness you sound like the schoolmaster from The Wall

Out of interest, how would you legally define a clip round the ear? There are some parents who use discipline as an excuse to beat their children black and blue. People like this are the reason it is legally unnacceptable to hit children with any sort of force (and quite rightly so in my opinion).

 

[Oswyntail]

You and me are on the same wavelength but just to keep the Liberals happy ,
You are obviously wrong because (as stated by the lilly livered Liberals such as PR1Berske throughout this thread) that clip round the ear either killed you or caused you severe brain damage hence your continuation of said physical abuse to others!

I am still waiting for your proposal PR1Berske (or any other Liberal on here) to "fix" the problem of feral youths and law and order in general or will you shy away from making any usefull proposals (well any proposals actually) at all really as you always do! :roll:

And of course you fail to distinguish, as usual, between "can cause brain damage" and "will cause brain damage". I couldn't possibly say whether your inability to do so is down to the damage caused by being clipped round the lughole as a kid
And let us not forget that your preferred "solution" seems to be what caused the problem in the first place

 

[reb0118]

I'm not for violence, but a clip round the ear every now and again if I did somethig wrong taught me 1.a lesson not to do it again 2. did me no harm.

I'm sorry young chap but it did do you harm as it gave you brain damage and because you have brain damage you now believe in ear clipping. See how it forms a perpetual cycle of violence, which of course you are not for - can you see the paradox in your above statement? Not for violence but supporting violence (ear clipping). This is what happens when society allows parents to parent. It must be stopped forthwith.

Do I get a PhD. in Child Psychology?

 

[455driver]

There are some parents who use discipline as an excuse to beat their children black and blue.

Which can never be acceptable in any sort of society.

People like this are the reason it is legally unnacceptable to hit children with any sort of force (and quite rightly so in my opinion).

I have never advocated using force, I am on about a tap (and I do mean a tap) but as that doesnt fit your agenda you take it to the extreme to make your point sound valid when it isnt.
You then end up with the bad ones running riot because there is nothing to stop them, well except sending them on all expenses paid trips to the sun, nope that didnt work either and it just made the well behaved kids kick off because they saw the trouble makers being rewarded for their bad behaviour.

Oswyntail,
So your idea is to reward them for bad behaviour, brilliant, We had a similar thing only last year at my kids school (its crap by the way), they were having after school clubs but only the ****-heads were allowed into it, my 9 year old wanted to do a couple of the courses on offer but was excluded (he is a good lad) so he started misbehaving in school (fine at home) and was then, after a few weeks, accepted onto the courses.

We didnt find out why his attitude had changed so quickly until after he had been "kept in" after school a few times and he decided to tell us.
Rewarding some people for bad behaviour just encourages bad behaviour from the others.
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Do I get a PhD. in Child Psychology?

No but you can have an eF U in nonsense!

Only joking and if offended (I know how easy you Liberals are offended) I will apologise and remove the post.

 

[reb0118]

No but you can have an eF U in nonsense!

Only joking and if offended (I know how easy you Liberals are offended) I will apologise and remove the post.

I believe I'm offended at being called a liberal!

 

[Oswyntail]

....

Oswyntail,
So your idea is to reward them for bad behaviour, brilliant, We had a similar thing only last year at my kids school (its crap by the way), they were having after school clubs but only the ****-heads were allowed into it, my 9 year old wanted to do a couple of the courses on offer but was excluded (he is a good lad) so he started misbehaving in school (fine at home) and was then, after a few weeks, accepted onto the courses....

Where did I say anything about rewarding people for bad behaviour? What I found works involves treating the offenders as real people, not as "feral", educating them out of their behaviour, not reinforcing it by fear and violence. Harder work, but the end result is potential useful members of society rather than cowed and resentful cast-offs.
The school you describe was half-way there, but their plan was flawed, in effect punishing good behaviour. Not really relevant, though.

 

[455driver]

I believe I'm offended at being called a liberal!

For that I most definitely DO apologise and promise I wont do it again.

 

[reb0118]

For that I most definitely DO apologise and promise I wont do it again.

Apology accepted. If you can't blame it on the French blame it on David Steel

 

[455driver]

Where did I say anything about rewarding people for bad behaviour? What I found works involves treating the offenders as real people, not as "feral", educating them out of their behaviour, not reinforcing it by fear and violence. Harder work, but the end result is potential useful members of society rather than cowed and resentful cast-offs.

Which is all well and good (where the individual wants to improve and break the circle) but what about where the individual doesnt want to?

There has to be some form of punishment and I havent seen anyone come up with a viable alternative to prison, what some people dont "get" is that there are some realy nasty <deletes> out there that do not want to be, or deserve to be within society.

 

[NSEFAN]

I have never advocated using force, I am on about a tap (and I do mean a tap) but as that doesnt fit your agenda you take it to the extreme to make your point sound valid when it isnt.
You then end up with the bad ones running riot because there is nothing to stop them, well except sending them on all expenses paid trips to the sun, nope that didnt work either and it just made the well behaved kids kick off because they saw the trouble makers being rewarded for their bad behaviour.

I haven't got an agenda. I'm just trying to explain why the rules are the way they are. The law is written with the best intentions but the wording is such that it can be interpreted to mean even a "tap" is seen as unreasonable force.

Rightly or wrongly, that is the situation. The collective whinging about it all on this thread isn't very likely to change it.

 

[GadgetMan]

I have worked with young people like this, teaching them an individual sport (no hiding behind the pack), trusting them with dangerous equipment, and treating them as I would anyone else. They responded, and their behaviour improved.
SO I have tried my way and it has, to a small extent, worked. You have presumably tried your brand of institutional thuggery - has that worked at all (I'll give you a hint - it's you complaining about feral youth)?

Give us a rough percentage as to how many of them never get in trouble with the law again? And does this treatment work on all ferrel youths or just selected examples?

 

[jon0844]

It's amusing that people who complain about senseless violence etc. point to giving out violence as the solution.

No they aren't. People who are losing the argument seem to feel that anyone saying that saying 'please, please don't do it again' are suddenly suggesting taking them out back and beating them senseless.

Some people can be spoken to and made to see the errors of their ways. Many can't. You know which ones; they're the ones that laugh in the face of authority and have hundreds of convictions under their belt. But, if someone says it's time to lock them up for longer - people like you come out and say it isn't fair, and when that doesn't work try and make out that the people saying it are sadists and probably get pleasure from inflicting harm on people.

Please give it a rest. The softly softly approach only had limited success and by all means try it once or twice but then switch to the more traditional punishments and give them a try instead. At least when someone is inside, they're totally unable to commit crime outside (well, bar those who use their mobiles snuck in to manage a crime network from behind bars - which I doubt is many of them). That's the big advantage of jail, and while the taxpayer has to fund their incarceration, think of all the money saved elsewhere... like vandalism that costs tens of thousands, compared to their time in jail.. suddenly sounds like a bit of a bargain as there's no way you will get the money back from them in fines!

What also gets me is that the do gooders can't also see that the good youths have to live in fear of the bad ones, as do the families that might cross their path. Who is looking out for them? They aren't growing up with a better quality of life because the well-known scrote at number nn is always being given another chance and sticking his finger up at authority (or pretending to listen but laughing behind their back).

It's the same people that probably wanted exams to be so easy that 99.99% of people would pass, thus making it harder for the people who worked their backsides off to get a good grade to get into Uni or a job because the layabout in class also passed. Yeah, thanks for nothing! There will always be good and bad people, yet we seem to have people that want everyone treated exactly the same so it's not unfair. Maybe that's why some schools don't like competitive sport...

 

[DarloRich]

Which is all well and good (where the individual wants to improve and break the circle) but what about where the individual doesnt want to?

There has to be some form of punishment and I havent seen anyone come up with a viable alternative to prison, what some people dont "get" is that there are some realy nasty <deletes> out there that do not want to be, or deserve to be within society.

Indeed there are, but the difference between you and me is that i think everyone has a chance to change if given the right tools and skills to do so. Now that might sound terribly soft and leftish and liberal but i dont care. Sometimes, all of those things that you have used to illustrate your points about how terrible society is ARE the reasons people end up in prison.

Lets be clear, they are the reasons people find themselves in the court system, they are not an excuse for the actions that got them there. I am all for locking people up ( more than you could possible imagine) i just wish prison time was used in such a way as to give a prisoner a chance of avoiding a return trip.
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No they aren't. People who are losing the argument seem to feel that anyone saying that saying 'please, please don't do it again' are suddenly suggesting taking them out back and beating them senseless.

Some people can be spoken to and made to see the errors of their ways. Many can't. You know which ones; they're the ones that laugh in the face of authority and have hundreds of convictions under their belt. But, if someone says it's time to lock them up for longer - people like you come out and say it isn't fair, and when that doesn't work try and make out that the people saying it are sadists and probably get pleasure from inflicting harm on people.

Please give it a rest. The softly softly approach only had limited success and by all means try it once or twice but then switch to the more traditional punishments and give them a try instead. At least when someone is inside, they're totally unable to commit crime outside (well, bar those who use their mobiles snuck in to manage a crime network from behind bars - which I doubt is many of them). That's the big advantage of jail, and while the taxpayer has to fund their incarceration, think of all the money saved elsewhere... like vandalism that costs tens of thousands, compared to their time in jail.. suddenly sounds like a bit of a bargain as there's no way you will get the money back from them in fines!

I dont think anyone is suggesting a softly softly approach where we all sit around holding hands and signing Kumbaya and trying to think about happy thoughts and flowers and birds and how sorry everyone is.

The right wingers standard response is to advocate a return to the 1950's and jolly good thrashings all round, without much understanding of the world we live in today.

There needs to be a harsh prison regime for those who deserve it, coupled with a chance of rehabilitation. There also needs to be a range of sentences appropriate to the crime committed. Some times an appropriate sentence is a community sentence. Not everyone deserves or needs to go to go to jail. Sorry if that is a bit left wing.

We also need more prisons, yet it is often the lock them up brigade who are less than happy to have said new prison built near them!

 

[455driver]

I can remember when Prison was a deterrent to doing the crime in the first place but then the "oh the poor prisoners" lot turned them into glorified Butlins* so some people would rather be in them than outside and others dont care either way.

* I actually quite like Butlins before anyone starts.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

We also need more prisons, yet it is often the lock them up brigade who are less than happy to have said new prison built near them!

Just re-open some of the closed ones.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

May I return to the original reason why this thread first appeared to ask if it is known how many youths in total were on Bat and Ball station and causing the problem ?

 

[Anon Mouse]

That will set them off now!

It will stop them breeding as well, perfect solution, where do I vote!

 

[455driver]

There needs to be a harsh prison regime for those who deserve it, coupled with a chance of rehabilitation. There also needs to be a range of sentences appropriate to the crime committed. Some times an appropriate sentence is a community sentence. Not everyone deserves or needs to go to go to jail. Sorry if that is a bit left wing.

Now that I agree with, sometimes prison is not appropriate (the old granny no paying he council tax etc) but sometimes it is and it needs to be a much harsher environment than it is now, if only to serve as a deterrent to others.

Remember (a few years ago) that prison governor in America who changed the prison to a much harsher environment (still within the constitution though), that is the sort of thing we need over here.

 

[RichmondCommu]

and with no responsibility for being drunk, under the influence of drugs and messing around on the train? Yes the Guard did make a mistake of judgement but, if that lass was not intoxicated and acting the fool then she would still be alive today and the Guard will still have his liberty.

The actions of the guard caused that poor young girl to lose her life before it barely begun and yet your biggest concern is that the guard doesn't have his liberty? He'll be out in less than five years while that young girl has been lost for ever.

 

[rebmcr]

The actions of the guard caused that poor young girl to lose her life before it barely begun and yet your biggest concern is that the guard doesn't have his liberty? He'll be out in less than five years while that young girl has been lost for ever.

I might be arguing semantics here, but I would say that the actions of the girl caused it — the actions of the guard failed to prevent it.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I might be arguing semantics here, but I would say that the actions of the girl caused it — the actions of the guard failed to prevent it.

In other words he failed to do his job correctly which led to the poor girl being killed.

 

[HSTEd]

In other words he failed to do his job correctly which led to the poor girl being killed.

Doing his job correctly would have left her dead anyway.
Since he would not have been at the door and thus could not have seen her.

He has been sent to prison for not following the rulebook, in this case in an attempt to improve the dispatch procedure.

 

[Flamingo]

Anyway, never mind all that, it's just my view and doubtless the usual suspects will be back on the thread soon to point out I'm lucky to have a job, and I'm obviously unsuited to it and should crawl back under a rock and leave serious thinking to the grown-ups, and how dare train staff disagree with the people who pay our wages.

Well, I was right... :roll::roll::roll:

 

[jimm]

Meanwhile, back in the real world...

28 Jan 2013 12:00
Two arrested after train driver attacked – Bat and Ball

British Transport Police (BTP) officers have arrested two youths after a train driver was assaulted at Bat and Ball station on Tuesday, 22 January.

The youths, aged 15 from Sevenoaks, and aged 16 of no fixed address, were arrested on suspicion of causing grievous bodily harm on Friday, 25 January. They have since been released on police bail, pending further enquiries, until Tuesday, 12 and Wednesday, 13 March.

Officers had previously issued a public appeal for information following the incident, which took place as the 4.24pm Kentish Town to Sevenoaks service was at Bat and Ball station.

As the train was about to depart, a group of youths were playing with the doors, causing the train to be delayed.

As the Southeastern train driver, a man in his forties who was driving a First Capital Connect train, went to investigate, he was assaulted.

British Transport Police and Kent Police were alerted, who attended the station, but the youths had made off.

As a result of the attack the driver was taken to the Princess Royal University Hospital, in Farnborough, with a head injury. He was later discharged that night.

 

[Flamingo]

Meanwhile, back in the real world...

Thanks for that. Nice to see that these victims of society might be given a chance to be educated to the error of their ways...

 

[BestWestern]

Thanks for that. Nice to see that these victims of society might be given a chance to be educated to the error of their ways...

I'm lighting the touchpaper here of course, but I don't hold out much hope for a 15 and a 16 year old receiving anything worth having I'm afraid...

 

[jimm]

I'm lighting the touchpaper here of course, but I don't hold out much hope for a 15 and a 16 year old receiving anything worth having I'm afraid...

Don't go lighting too many touchpapers. Now that arrests have been made, the case is considered as "active" in the eyes of the contempt of court laws.

 

[BestWestern]

Don't go lighting too many touchpapers. Now that arrests have been made, the case is considered as "active" in the eyes of the contempt of court laws.

And if the police came knocking to lock me up, wouldn't that just prove the point perfectly?!

 

[Flamingo]

Well, we don't want the little darlings to be able to claim they can't get a fair trial...

 

[jnjkerbin]

Well at least they've been caught. The 16 yo of no fixed address is no big surprise. Let us hope that the action taken is reasonable...

 

[PR1Berske]

I didn't dare say at the time of the copy and paste above, but yes, contempt of court laws (amongst other things) mean that this trail is "live", so we can't say anything much specifically. Not a conspiracy, it's standard (and indeed legal!) practice.