BTP launch appeal after "abhorrent" attack on train driver

[the sniper]

More friendly action from our friendly young model citizens.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-21180898

Yeah, damn all those young people! They're all the same... :roll:

You can't go out in the street without being assaulted nowadays. How that poor chap went 49 years without this happening before is the only surprise!

 

[BestWestern]

The incident is, however, relevant to the discussion since it shows a very similar attitude among the offender(s) - i.e. commit antisocial acts and then batter anybody who challenges you.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Did anyone read my posting # 116 on this thread that I wrote a short time ago about "The Manchester Scuttlers 1880-1895" ?

 

[the sniper]

Did anyone read my posting # 116 on this thread that I wrote a short time ago about "The Manchester Scuttlers 1880-1895" ?

If you're aiming that at me, my response to GadgetMan was sarcastic.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If you're aiming that at me, my response to GadgetMan was sarcastic.

Nothing of the sort, young man.

It was just a general observation, as my posting was half-way down the previous page and may have been missed by forum members new to the thread. It does show you though that the 1880-1895 period does indeed have a similarity to matters currently being discussed.

 

[Temple Meads]

"Feral" youths are definitely nothing new, my personal opinion is that the presence of right wing media and ahem, online discussion forums bring the "This never happened in my day" brigade out up in arms about how law and order and discipline has gone down the drain because of the nanny state, and single mothers sponging benefits.

/sarcasm

 

[BestWestern]

Nothing of the sort, young man.

It was just a general observation, as my posting was half-way down the previous page and may have been missed by forum members new to the thread. It does show you though that the 1880-1895 period does indeed have a similarity to matters currently being discussed.

An interesting comparison. One of the main differences perhaps is that back then you may have 'got away' with dishing out some summary justice, wheras today such a thing is not acceptable. What we have is a police 'service' unable to effect any worthwhile remedy, which at the same time constantly reminds other long suffering citizens that they must not take matters into their own hands. Those who do are dealt with by the 'system' rather more efficiently than the original perpetrators it would often seem.

Back in the 'old days' you do get the feeling that the playing field was somewhat more level, though whether that was a good thing is of course open to debate!

 

[Flamingo]

There has always been people of every class who feel the law (or some aspects of it) doesn't or shouldn't apply to them because it is inconvenient. That has not (or will never) change. The consequences to them does seem to vary from era to era, but the real "hard-core" will always remain - isolating them from the ones that can be shown the error of their ways has always been the challenge.

Reading the start of this thread, I can understand the anger and outrage of my railway colleagues at this attack as it really is "There but for the grace of God go I", and we all know only too well how frightening it is to be faced with a situation like this. It is not in our job description to do so, and none of us are paid to go out to work, but go home via an A&E department - but such is the reality of it.

I would remind all posters that the cost of running the railway (indeed I'd go so far as to say the ability to run the railway) depends to a large extent on railway workers being prepared to potentially put themselves in harms way by working on their own with minimal back-up and protective equipment in situations where we are expected to confront and discourage all sorts of anti-social behaviour with nothing more than a torch and a whistle, and with back-up anything up to 30 minutes away at the next station (which may be unmanned). That may be why we are a little bit les inclined to take an impartial balanced view of incidents like this, or view the perpetrators as also being victims of their upbringing, society, a broken home, unaccountable for their own actions due to excessive alcohol or drug intake, poor parenting, or any of the other reasons one hears.

I can also understand the reaction of certain posters to the forceful reaction of some people to the perpetrators of incidents like this, as they have been indoctrinated into thinking that there is always an excuse for every type of behaviour, and nobody should ever have to face up to unpleasent consequences for their own actions - it is a very common view in society today. It has not come out of the air, and there is a large industry pushing this view, so we should not be surprised that it is being expressed on here, epically from people who (as far as I know) never have to confront the reality of their views.

I just hope that these posters will be that understanding when writing their Victim Impact statements once they have an encounter with people like the ones that assaulted this rail worker. I'm sure they will be quick to say they do not want charges pressed, or they want the defendants mitigation plea taken into account.

Anyway, never mind all that, it's just my view and doubtless the usual suspects will be back on the thread soon to point out I'm lucky to have a job, and I'm obviously unsuited to it and should crawl back under a rock and leave serious thinking to the grown-ups, and how dare train staff disagree with the people who pay our wages.

If anybody on here knows the driver, please pass on my best wishes to him for a speedy recovery. ( But don't let him know about this thread, he would be better off not reading some of the drivel posted on it.)

 

[the sniper]

An interesting comparison. One of the main differences perhaps is that back then you may have 'got away' with dishing out some summary justice, wheras today such a thing is not acceptable. What we have is a police 'service' unable to effect any worthwhile remedy,

The Courts should be dealing out the remedies, surely? They arguable sometimes/often aren't, but that's an issue with the justice system rather than the Police. Unless we're talking about the Police going back to the 70's style of dishing out 'remedies'?

[...]which at the same time constantly reminds other long suffering citizens that they must not take matters into their own hands. Those who do are dealt with by the 'system' rather more efficiently than the original perpetrators it would often seem.

Well no, you can't just deal out a good kicking whenever you've been wronged. You can though get away with using reasonable force under the circumstances, which can stretch to dealing out a bit of a kicking. You've just got to know where to draw the line and be able to justify it in court.

Back in the 'old days' you do get the feeling that the playing field was somewhat more level, though whether that was a good thing is of course open to debate!

Ah, the good old days. When evidence was hard to come by and anybody with the wrong face in the wrong place got sent down, and got a kicking on their way to there for their troubles.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I am sure that some of the punishments given to the "bad people" in the Grimm's Fairy Tales, first published in 1812, would be frowned on today. I have read some of the original stories which were not sanitised so as not to offend certain sensibilities.

And as for the Viking use of the "Blood Eagle".....hock:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ah, the good old days. When evidence was hard to come by and anybody with the wrong face in the wrong place got sent down, and got a kicking on their way to there for their troubles.

....on their way in chains to the ships transporting them to Australia.....:roll:

 

[reb0118]

....on their way in chains to the ships transporting them to Australia.....:roll:

Have you seen Comrades directed by the late Bill Paterson ~ who is commemorated at Newcraighall Station. Although about the Tolpuddle Martyrs is does show the conditions of the convicts in Australia.

 

[Clip]

Exactly, it will be measured in months will have the word "supended" towards the end of it!

Thats because,once again I have to point this out to you, they will be charged with something different to what the Guard was. And the framework of sentencing for that charge will be different also.

Do you understand the difference in charges and what the accused may recieve or are you just letting emotions override the facts on such issues?


Its a very emotive subject and one that no member of rail staff wants to happen to themselves or a colleague- even if they are from a different TOC or whatever BUT you have to strip out that emotion when in a court room and stick to the facts and only the facts.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Have you seen Comrades directed by the late Bill Paterson ~ who is commemorated at Newcraighall Station. Although about the Tolpuddle Martyrs is does show the conditions of the convicts in Australia.

A selection of crimes that were punishable by transportation were:-
Manslaughter
Defrauding the Customs and Excise
Fraud...and conspiracy to defraud
Grand larceny
Receiving or buying stolen goods
Assault with intent to rob
Theft or embezzlement from a naval store
Bigamy
Manslaughter
Stealing children with their apparel
Counterfeiting the copper coin
Uttering base money
Solemnizing marriage clandestinely
Stealing a shroud out of a grave
Stealing bodies out of a grave

 

[stevo3210]

Nah, they'll probably slam the driver in prison for five years :roll:.

Seriously though, it doesn't surprise me particularly. Only last year, a train on that very line was set on fire by some @?#%s. Not the first time such incidents have occurred and sadly, not the last.

That was my 319 train last year! Same station, no station staff, no CCTV at Bat & Ball and probably the same kids!

 

[455driver]

Thats because,once again I have to point this out to you, they will be charged with something different to what the Guard was. And the framework of sentencing for that charge will be different also.

The guard did not set out to harm anybody (despite the RAIB report stating otherwise) his actions were found to have caused the drunk/drugged 16 year old girl harm), these "people" did but as you state they will be charged with a lower crime in the first place despite the attack being premeditated!

Do you understand the difference in charges and what the accused may recieve or are you just letting emotions override the facts on such issues?

Yes I do actually, although it is an emotional subject I can think clearly but get sick to the back teeth of our judiciary "making examples" of working people who make a mistake compared to non working people who (it appears) can commit any crime they see fit, when they see fit without fear.

Just look at the different sentences handed down to people who cause injury when sat behind a steering wheel compared to those that are not.

 

[FGW_DID]

There has always been people of every class who feel the law (or some aspects of it) doesn't or shouldn't apply to them because it is inconvenient. That has not (or will never) change. The consequences to them does seem to vary from era to era, but the real "hard-core" will always remain - isolating them from the ones that can be shown the error of their ways has always been the challenge.

Reading the start of this thread, I can understand the anger and outrage of my railway colleagues at this attack as it really is "There but for the grace of God go I", and we all know only too well how frightening it is to be faced with a situation like this. It is not in our job description to do so, and none of us are paid to go out to work, but go home via an A&E department - but such is the reality of it.

I would remind all posters that the cost of running the railway (indeed I'd go so far as to say the ability to run the railway) depends to a large extent on railway workers being prepared to potentially put themselves in harms way by working on their own with minimal back-up and protective equipment in situations where we are expected to confront and discourage all sorts of anti-social behaviour with nothing more than a torch and a whistle, and with back-up anything up to 30 minutes away at the next station (which may be unmanned). That may be why we are a little bit les inclined to take an impartial balanced view of incidents like this, or view the perpetrators as also being victims of their upbringing, society, a broken home, unaccountable for their own actions due to excessive alcohol or drug intake, poor parenting, or any of the other reasons one hears.

I can also understand the reaction of certain posters to the forceful reaction of some people to the perpetrators of incidents like this, as they have been indoctrinated into thinking that there is always an excuse for every type of behaviour, and nobody should ever have to face up to unpleasent consequences for their own actions - it is a very common view in society today. It has not come out of the air, and there is a large industry pushing this view, so we should not be surprised that it is being expressed on here, epically from people who (as far as I know) never have to confront the reality of their views.

I just hope that these posters will be that understanding when writing their Victim Impact statements once they have an encounter with people like the ones that assaulted this rail worker. I'm sure they will be quick to say they do not want charges pressed, or they want the defendants mitigation plea taken into account.

Anyway, never mind all that, it's just my view and doubtless the usual suspects will be back on the thread soon to point out I'm lucky to have a job, and I'm obviously unsuited to it and should crawl back under a rock and leave serious thinking to the grown-ups, and how dare train staff disagree with the people who pay our wages.

If anybody on here knows the driver, please pass on my best wishes to him for a speedy recovery. ( But don't let him know about this thread, he would be better off not reading some of the drivel posted on it.)

Well said Sir!

 

[Oswyntail]

There has always been people of every class who feel the law (or some aspects of it) doesn't or shouldn't apply to them because it is inconvenient. ...

Flamingo,
I am sure no one here has anything less than respect for anyone whose job puts them in risk of danger form violence. Yes, it should not be part of a driver's job, just as much as it should not be part of anyone's life.
I say this because I strongly believe that violence is not the answer to anything (outside crossword clues). As a follow-on from this belief, I feel that educating the violent people is a much better, and more productive, approach than some of the more reactionary approaches advocated. It is also more difficult. I also suspect (though, no I have no hard proof) that when it works its effects are more long-lasting than pure retributive prison.
Yes, I have filled out Victim reports, and I know what it is like to have to rush a child to A&E after the local thugs have given him a pasting. But I knew the thugs involved (as did the police - one was described as a "one lad crime wave"), and I could see, behind the aggression, ordinary boys, like my son, but who only seemed able to interact through violence. Yes, I was angry, and felt violent towards them. But I did not feel that the instant gratification of hitting them would help anyone.
And, incidentally, as I see them around town, I sometimes see them looking absolutely terrified themselves. This is when they are with their father, a swaggering thug in an England shirt with two (unmuzzled) bull-terriers (yes, the cliches are true!) who has been black-listed from most pubs and shops in the town. And, yes, I feel sorry for his sons.
What is the answer? Whatever it is it has to be long term, and I doubt many authorities have the patience for that. But I will hold to my beliefs, and, perhaps, one day, we will find a way to end social violence.
So, my respect again to all those who, in the course of their job, put themselves in the line of danger, my prayers for the driver - and my hope for society.

 

[455driver]

So your idea is to "educate" these 3 thugs is it!
Let the police know and I am sure they will be more than happy to lock you in the cell with them so they can educate you, oops I mean you educate them in the way of the world.

I feel that educating the violent people is a much better, and more productive, approach than some of the more reactionary approaches advocated.

So how to educate somebody who has been through the school system and learnt nothing?

It is also more difficult.

Even more so as they dont want to learn.

They only know violence, look at the upbringing most of them have had, they are merely a meal ticket for their parents who would much rather lock them in the shed than have them in their house but even neanderthal man knows that isnt allowed anymore.

There is the problem and as long as it is a viable "job" to drop out a few sprogs (even better if they have a "ism" or 2 as its more money) and get a council house with most bills paid for you (plus all the free repairs when Dad goes mental after coming home from the pub) etc it isnt going to change any time soon.

 

[PR1Berske]

455 - that is the most prejudicial, judgemental, overblown piece of right-wing nonsense I've read for a long time. And I once glanced at the Daily Mail over someone's shoulder.

In all seriousness, you paint a picture of your own nightmare, not the reality. It is, by all definitions, sad.

 

[455driver]

455 - that is the most prejudicial, judgemental, overblown piece of right-wing nonsense I've read for a long time. And I once glanced at the Daily Mail over someone's shoulder.

In all seriousness, you paint a picture of your own nightmare, not the reality. It is, by all definitions, sad.

Not my nightmare (my family was fine even though I was <shock horror> smacked when I overstepped the boundaries) but it is the nightmare of quite a few people round where I live, perhaps you would like to meet them?

Your proposals for sorting the issues of feral youths are?

Oops silly me you dont actually propose anything but just tell other people they are wrong without offering an alternative dont you!

 

[PR1Berske]

If you can't see a link between demonising youth and their sense of misplace and cynicism, then that is your problem. Not mine.

 

[Prairie_5542]

Where has all the discipline gone in all the schools and at home?

 

[455driver]

If you can't see a link between demonising youth and their sense of misplace and cynicism, then that is your problem. Not mine.

Either offer a "fix" or shut up, your prticipation in this thread is just a waste of electrons!

 

[PR1Berske]

Where has all the discipline gone in all the schools and at home?

How much of it was 'discipline', and how much malicious bullying? It's all very well looking back with nostalgia at the post-war days when teachers would strike a belt across young boys' hands and backsides, but the ultimate result was a psychological timebomb.

It's amusing that people who complain about senseless violence etc. point to giving out violence as the solution.

 

[Captain Chaos]

If you can't see a link between demonising youth and their sense of misplace and cynicism, then that is your problem. Not mine.

I don't think anyone is demonising youth. Most youths are fine. There are a few that are a problem and sorting it out is a complicated process. There are always going to be people in society that you simply cannot help.

Some of these "misunderstood" youths come from families that for generations have been on the dole, playing the system and causing problems for people. They see it as a way of life and have no intention of changing their ways. You are always going to have these types of people in society and no amount of intervention and education is ever going to change that mindset. There is no value in trying to help people who simply don't want it. You are just throwing money down the drain that could be best used to help others who do want it. I'm not suggesting we should forget these people. I'm always willing to help people. But there is no point in trying to help someone who is just going to throw it back in your face, stick two fingers up at you and carry on regardless.

People need to be wiling to learn in order to be educated. That is where the problem lies.

 

[Prairie_5542]

How much of it was 'discipline', and how much malicious bullying? It's all very well looking back with nostalgia at the post-war days when teachers would strike a belt across young boys' hands and backsides, but the ultimate result was a psychological timebomb.

It's amusing that people who complain about senseless violence etc. point to giving out violence as the solution.

PR1Berske. I see it every day new parents witch children don't tell them off if they have done something wrong. For example a young child hitting a window with a stick. He/she must be told off that that is wrong, not to do it otherwise the window will smash and they will have to pay for a new one etc...

There doesn't seem to be parents telling their chidlren what's wrong and what's right anymore. There does seem to be more of kids having kids these days also. It just gets passed down from generation to generation those that haven't been told the rights from wrongs.

I'm not for violence, but a clip round the ear every now and again if I did somethig wrong taught me 1.a lesson not to do it again 2. did me no harm.

 

[455driver]

I'm not for violence, but a clip round the ear every now and again if I did somethig wrong taught me 1.a lesson not to do it again 2. did me no harm.

You and me are on the same wavelength but just to keep the Liberals happy ,
You are obviously wrong because (as stated by the lilly livered Liberals such as PR1Berske throughout this thread) that clip round the ear either killed you or caused you severe brain damage hence your continuation of said physical abuse to others!

I am still waiting for your proposal PR1Berske (or any other Liberal on here) to "fix" the problem of feral youths and law and order in general or will you shy away from making any usefull proposals (well any proposals actually) at all really as you always do! :roll:

 

[Anon Mouse]

just chop off their goolies

[youtube]H1TfZBjgG6c[/youtube]

 

[455driver]

That will set them off now!

It will stop them breeding as well, perfect solution, where do I vote!

 

[Oswyntail]

Either offer a "fix" or shut up, your prticipation in this thread is just a waste of electrons!

I have worked with young people like this, teaching them an individual sport (no hiding behind the pack), trusting them with dangerous equipment, and treating them as I would anyone else. They responded, and their behaviour improved.
SO I have tried my way and it has, to a small extent, worked. You have presumably tried your brand of institutional thuggery - has that worked at all (I'll give you a hint - it's you complaining about feral youth)?