West Yorkshire bus franchising

[61653 HTAFC]

No.

You can predict you can have traffic at peaks times but you cannot predict how long that traffic will disrupt the journey. Arriva has far too much padding in their timetables to the point where you are consistently waiting 5+ minutes at every timing point on routes like the 202/3 and 229. Yet, despite this, these services are still the most unpunctual services in the region and still end up running half an hour late. You cannot fix infrastructure issues with timetables.

You can't have it both ways though. The 229 was diverted away from Batley a few years ago because of congestion, were the timings on the modified route updated? If the timetable is too conservative in one place and too optimistic further along the route, then it isn't fit for purpose. Yes, sometimes traffic can be unpredictable but for the most part you know when and where the bottlenecks are likely to be. At least with modern tracking people will know whether their bus is delayed or if it's a no-show- which wasn't the case in the past. That's assuming things are tracking properly of course, which isn't always the case.

People will accept that their bus might be late because of traffic, particularly if they're able to track it and be reassured that it will turn up eventually- but would it not make more sense to publish timetables that bear at least some resemblance to reality? It isn't rocket science to acknowledge that the roads will be quieter at 9pm than they were at 5:30pm and to publish timetables that reflect this.

 

[Tetchytyke]

You can predict you can have traffic at peaks times but you cannot predict how long that traffic will disrupt the journey.

Nonsense.

Some congestion is unpredictable but most of it is entirely predictable. Anyone with local knowledge knows where the hotspots are and with modern tracking technology the operator can see where the delays occur. It’s also predictable based on the day- the roads on Mondays and Fridays are quieter and the roads during school holidays are deserted. The roads into a shopping park are busier on a Saturday.

I don’t think we should go down the First AI timetable route, but buses in the shoulder peaks take longer than buses in the off peak. How often does a timetable actually reflect that?

If a particular service is both waiting time and operating late then that’s a timetabling issue. Clearly they’ve not put the extra times in the right place.

I was wondering where these places are too?

I can think of a few examples in and around Bradford where bus improvement measures have been put in only to see the bus service decimated or removed entirely. There have also been a few examples in and around South Shields and Jarrow, not surprising given how much both operators there have cut back their network.

 

[Metal Mickey]

Does that not suggest that timetables are unrealistic, and should be rewritten to better reflect real-world conditions?

That’s easier said than done as it’s almost impossible to predict traffic congestion from one day to the next.

 

[psmith2023]

Some bus routes else where for example outside of Yorkshire for a fact I know one route in the midlands had a 20 minute wait at a council office bus stop as that bus was added because the other 4 on that route was never on time so another bus was needed

 

[stevieinselby]

Some congestion is unpredictable but most of it is entirely predictable. Anyone with local knowledge knows where the hotspots are and with modern tracking technology the operator can see where the delays occur. It’s also predictable based on the day- the roads on Mondays and Fridays are quieter and the roads during school holidays are deserted. The roads into a shopping park are busier on a Saturday.

Most congestion is unpredictable. When I used to commute to work by bus, for a while I kept a log of journeys. Some days we would arrive 2 or 3 minutes early, the next day with the same weather and at the same time of day we would be delayed by 10 to 15 minutes with no obvious reason why the traffic was heavier. Yes, you are more likely to get delays at certain places and at certain times of day, but the regularity and extent of those delays can vary significantly from one day to the next at random.

 

[Pyewipecarshed]

@Tetchytyke raises a good point and perhaps that is something the Weaver Network bods can look at; possibly it's time to move away from the Monday to Friday/Saturday/Sunday model for timetables and have versions that reflect the lack of commuters on a Monday and a Friday.
In the post-covid world maybe separate Monday/Tuesday to Thursday/Friday/Saturday/Sunday timetables would be more suitable.

 

[citybus2500]

@Tetchytyke raises a good point and perhaps that is something the Weaver Network bods can look at; possibly it's time to move away from the Monday to Friday/Saturday/Sunday model for timetables and have versions that reflect the lack of commuters on a Monday and a Friday.
In the post-covid world maybe separate Monday/Tuesday to Thursday/Friday/Saturday/Sunday timetables would be more suitable.

Indeed. Around Birmingham many services have a different Friday timetable.

 

[tomoufc]

Most congestion is unpredictable. When I used to commute to work by bus, for a while I kept a log of journeys. Some days we would arrive 2 or 3 minutes early, the next day with the same weather and at the same time of day we would be delayed by 10 to 15 minutes with no obvious reason why the traffic was heavier. Yes, you are more likely to get delays at certain places and at certain times of day, but the regularity and extent of those delays can vary significantly from one day to the next at random.

I think it’s better to focus on having more padding at the start and end of journeys, so at least one delayed service doesn’t delay the next, while journeys are faster when there are few traffic issues. This also gives drivers more opportunity to have a break and rest, which is really important.

 

[stevieinselby]

I think it’s better to focus on having more padding at the start and end of journeys, so at least one delayed service doesn’t delay the next, while journeys are faster when there are few traffic issues. This also gives drivers more opportunity to have a break and rest, which is really important.

Agreed – better to have sensible running times and generous layovers than excessive padding meaning that buses are regularly waiting for time at stops along the route. The only time that can get difficult is when you have circular or balloon routes that don't have an obvious terminus to add in that extra time.

 

[Tetchytyke]

When I used to commute to work by bus, for a while I kept a log of journeys. Some days we would arrive 2 or 3 minutes early, the next day with the same weather and at the same time of day we would be delayed by 10 to 15 minutes with no obvious reason why the traffic was heavier.

My experience is more that the actual traffic delays are fairly consistent from one day to the next, maybe 3-5 minutes variation at most.

The problem is that this only works if the operator does everything else on time. But all the other issues that the bus operator can control get added on to that traffic- drivers not pulling on to the stand until departure time being a favourite. And that then causes the delays to escalate as everyone for the next bus arrive and so you end up 10-15 late.

I really don’t agree that traffic is all that unpredictable. I think operators hide behind traffic delays as an excuse for quite a lot.

 

[Dwarfer1979]

My experience is more that the actual traffic delays are fairly consistent from one day to the next, maybe 3-5 minutes variation at most.

I would say it is unpredictably predictable - there are patterns you can seen and understand but they don't happen consistently enough to plan around. Like SteveinSelby I used to catch the bus to work most days and recorded all my trips, with professional interest as the main part of that journey was on my employers that I helped schedule, and whilst the morning was very reliable as it was before the morning peak the afternoon trip was at the start of the evening peak and was quite variable (anything from 5-mins early to 30-mins later). I could often predict in the morning what the afternoon would be like (weather, time of year, day of the week, special events) or during the day (motorway issues) which would require customers to be able to work out which one of half a dozen timetables depending on such factors (BST vs GMT, Schooldays vs School Holidays, Wednesdays as Colleges & Unis finish early for activities and now Mondays & Fridays with home working holding down commuting) would be both unattractive and confusing.

The big killer at the moment are roadworks, they are always popping up (often with little to no notice) and can often have outsize impacts - there have been lots of discussions on here about the impact works have had in Nottingham and Long Eaton and we had a set of temporary lights pop up on a main road covered by one of our major routes and buses were losing 30-60 mins on every trip with no warning.

The problem is that this only works if the operator does everything else on time. But all the other issues that the bus operator can control get added on to that traffic- drivers not pulling on to the stand until departure time being a favourite. And that then causes the delays to escalate as everyone for the next bus arrive and so you end up 10-15 late.

But those same level of delays can accrue out of operator control just as easily (wheelchair users, difficult customers or complicated enquiries, roadworks or unexpected demand) can all delay a bus by a couple of minutes at one point that can escalate into significant delays by the end of the trip. I used to drive occasionally to work, largely to allow me to stop at the supermarket on the way home, and a couple of minutes difference in when I left could cause a 15-min delay on arrival as I would be much further back in the building queue.

I really don’t agree that traffic is all that unpredictable. I think operators hide behind traffic delays as an excuse for quite a lot.

I have trip by trip analysis for 4 different services on my desk at the moment, whilst a couple do have some trips that are consistent issues that offers an obvious fix on all of them there are significant inconsistencies day to day (there is one where it is alternating on the same trip between "on time" and "late" almost every day through a week, the next week being all on time and the third week dropping back to the alternate days pattern).

It does depend somewhat where you are, big cities are more unpredictable but their peak period extends over a significant period of time whilst small towns have more predictable traffic but over much smaller windows so minor delays or changes can have huge impacts on running time (that 2 or 3 minute discussion around the best ticket to buy or the slight delay taking the bus out for the start of the trip can really cascade). We had one route that had 3 trips leave one end of the route over an hour window but their arrival at the other end was spread over 90-mins (we had two trips leaving within about 15-mins of each other but one took 45-mins and the other over an hour and was always 10-mins late, the depots suggestion was to just start 10-mins earlier but I pointed out if we did that we would avoid all the traffic and arrive 30-mins early - finding that sweet spot can be quite difficult in these circumstances).

 

[Andyh82]

Yes I agree with all thos

Traffic is worse in the dark than in the light, and is worse in the rain than in the dry

Mondays and Fridays are lighter in the mornings but Fridays are busy after lunch as those who are working like trades clock off early and often workers may finish at the same time as schools

School holidays are obviously quieter with the main summer holiday even quieter. June is between the two as uni and exam students stop attending

December is busy around shopping centres, January is worse than any month due to weather and few being on holiday

Then you have roadworks and motorway issues that can have a wide impact, and customers that take a long time to board either asking questions or wheelchair users or elderly customers

 

[Metal Mickey]

In the post-covid world maybe separate Monday/Tuesday to Thursday/Friday/Saturday/Sunday timetables would be more suitable

Given that the business model of the large groups is driven by efficiencies and shareholder value, I cannot see additional administrative capacity being provided to increase the number of timetables and schedules in operation every week.

 

[noddingdonkey]

Although under franchising the theory is that this shouldn't apply

 

[Megafuss]

Route One is reporting that Tier C award decisions have been withdrawn due to what it quotes as

'concerns identified with the evaluation process'​

Yikes

 

[Kaliwax]

What happens when they announce the next tier 3 decisions, and none of the original lot who won Tier C contracts didn't get any 2nd time around. Would they put in a legal challenge also?

If the tier 3 decisions go to Squarepeg, and wouldn't that annoy a lot of the other operators who bidded, especially those who originally won the tier c contracts

 

[Andyh82]

What happens when they announce the next tier 3 decisions, and none of the original lot who won Tier C contracts didn't get any 2nd time around. Would they put in a legal challenge also?

If the tier 3 decisions go to Squarepeg, and wouldn't that annoy a lot of the other operators who bidded, especially those who originally won the tier c contracts

Surely it depends if the concerns raised are investigated and turn out to be valid?

Note it only effects the Tier C school contracts, the Tier B public contracts aren’t effected, so it must be something specific about the school contracts aren’t effected process

 

[Megafuss]

What happens when they announce the next tier 3 decisions, and none of the original lot who won Tier C contracts didn't get any 2nd time around. Would they put in a legal challenge also?

If the tier 3 decisions go to Squarepeg, and wouldn't that annoy a lot of the other operators who bidded, especially those who originally won the tier c contracts

Its ultimately down to the local authority to carry out a procurement process properly

 

[MotCO]

Route One is reporting that Tier C award decisions have been withdrawn due to what it quotes as

'concerns identified with the evaluation process'​

Yikes

To meet Forum rules, the actual article is here: https://www.route-one.net/news/wyca-withdraws-tier-c-bus-franchise-contract-award-decisions/

The West Yorkshire Combined Authority (WYCA) is understood to have withdrawn bus franchise contract award decisions on Tier C home-to-school lots for the first round of rollout in the region, where those have been made.
Multiple bidders for that work have told routeone they were advised of the step in early October and that it is because of “concerns identified with the evaluation process,” according to a WYCA notification to them. A further notice will follow to confirm next steps for those Tier C contracts.
WYCA published names of the planned winners of most Tier C home-to-school and all Tier B small bus service contracts on 8 September. Signing was expected on 18 September. Five Tier C lots did not have an intended winner as no acceptable bids were received, with a retender exercise to have followed.
Two SME operators were represented among expected Tier C winners, with one of those also set for a Tier B award. However, Squarepeg Buses – which has around half of its current work within the first round of franchising – was not among the planned winners, leading it to begin a legal challenge to that procurement process, which it says was flawed.
The mandatory standstill period has since been extended twice and no contracts have been signed. Go-live for the first round of franchising in West Yorkshire is planned for 15 May 2027, with the large Tier A contracts within that tranche – won by First Bus and Transdev Blazefield – already in place.
Squarepeg Managing Director Simon Daymond says the operator’s legal representative DWF has now submitted a detailed bundle to WYCA challenging aspects of the procurement of Tier B and Tier C work in the first round.
He has also engaged customers of the Leeds operator to back the cause, with a leaflet distributed on its buses asking those service users to contact parties including Mayor of West Yorkshire Tracy Brabin and even Minister for Buses and Local Transport Simon Lightwood, into whose constituency Squarepeg operates.
Mr Daymond has long claimed that the assessment of bids did not fairly consider SME bidders. He is seeking direct award of the work contained within Tier B and Tier C to incumbent operators and has questioned why the Tier C decisions have been withdrawn when WYCA previously said the procurement process was “robust.”
WYCA was asked on 6 October to confirm its decision, what will happen next, including when any re-evaluation of bids will occur, and if the ongoing delay to signing could delay the full rollout of the first franchising round. A response is awaited.

Not sure what impact this will have on the overall timetable.

 

[Deerfold]

To meet Forum rules, the actual article is here: https://www.route-one.net/news/wyca-withdraws-tier-c-bus-franchise-contract-award-decisions/



Not sure what impact this will have on the overall timetable.

I think this is the first time the planned start date of the first Weaver contracts has been made public (15 May 2027 rather than "Spring 2027").

 

[317 forever]

I think this is the first time the planned start date of the first Weaver contracts has been made public (15 May 2027 rather than "Spring 2027").

It is noticeably a Saturday, not a Sunday as often happens outside London. Also, it is the day of the Eurovision Song Contest

 

[Steve440]

To meet Forum rules, the actual article is here: https://www.route-one.net/news/wyca-withdraws-tier-c-bus-franchise-contract-award-decisions/



Not sure what impact this will have on the overall timetable.

Surely if its just the school contracts then the tier A and B contracts can commence as planned, and then maybe the existing school contracts could continue until the end of the school year in July with the new awards starting in September. Just a thought.

 

[Kaliwax]

One of the winners of the c contracts, Lethers, are in front of the Traffic Commissioner next month, wonder if the outcome of that could change things