WAG express via Wrexham, WAG statement today

[merlodlliw]

The scheme got piggy backed on NR raising track levels at Dyfi Jnc to get tracks out of regular flood water, also its a shed cheaper than the other schemes you mention WAG only had to cough up 50%.

We look forward to the outgoing Ministers commitment to enhanced Capacity
between Saltney & WrexhamI(double tracks), to permit extra services in place of the maximum of 3 an hour,one wonders if the new Minister from May will honour the commitment. we shall see.

Bob

 

[TDK]

Yup. A 175 with a trolley is getting a hell of a write up
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An ATW are being funded to run a 175 to Cardiff by WAG - pathetic

 

[The Planner]

Wrexham to Shrewsbury 175 70mph - 67 60mph
Shrewsbury ro Craven Arms 175 up to 90mph - 67 up to 70mph

Good point, I forgot about the MU diffs. Doesn't mean they won't try and get a dispensation in the appendix to run at MU speed in the same vein as WSMR did between Bicester and Risborough. Id imagine it is the braking category that imposes the lower speeds. I know Chiltern are trying to get the 67s HST rated between Tyseley and Leamington.

 

[TDK]

Good point, I forgot about the MU diffs. Doesn't mean they won't try and get a dispensation in the appendix to run at MU speed in the same vein as WSMR did between Bicester and Risborough. Id imagine it is the braking category that imposes the lower speeds. I know Chiltern are trying to get the 67s HST rated between Tyseley and Leamington.

WSMR only got the enhances speeds through a lot of hard work and it took 18 months to get the higher speeds. I am not certain but I think it is the axle weight that determines the speeds up until Craven Arms, we will see but it will not be before december knowing Network Rail Western Region. I would hope that Chiltern will get the enhanced speeds as this will be good for Evergreen 3, there is a difference between HST and MU when it comes to trying to get speeds with loco and stock. WSMR were told that would most likely get the enhanced speeds on the Kennilworth lines but never the MU speed between Wrexham and Shrewsbury

 

[Gareth Marston]

Yup. A 175 with a trolley is getting a hell of a write up
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An ATW are being funded to run a 175 to Cardiff by WAG - pathetic

When there's already 8 175's with trolleys on the route! Musn't forget the guest appearances by 158's and even 150's which will be more often now another 175 diagram is needed!

 

[tbtc]

When there's already 8 175's with trolleys on the route! Musn't forget the guest appearances by 158's and even 150's which will be more often now another 175 diagram is needed!

That's a good point. With no new 175s (plus more 158s needed to Aberystwyth in the future), it sounds like this is just going to be downgrading some other services to "pay" for a faster journey from Holyhead to Cardiff.

Robbing Peter To Pay Paul?

 

[Greenback]

But why does there need to be a second "premium" train? The whole concept seems crazy. Maybe understandable a few years ago when there was only one train a day from Holyhead to Cardiff, but with a train every couple of hours surely any demand is being met?

Why does there need to be a premium train at all?

Many in Wales question its purpose! The most cynical sugegst it's because the Minister comes from Anglesey, and so is keen to have direct air and rail links for himself (he probably likes a bit of variety). In the real world, the 2 hourly 175 service would probably be perfectly sufficient.

My point is, if the WAG is going to spend money in this fashion, and it is for the time being, then a balncing working would make more sense.

 

[merlodlliw]

Why does there need to be a premium train at all?

Many in Wales question its purpose! The most cynical sugegst it's because the Minister comes from Anglesey, and so is keen to have direct air and rail links for himself (he probably likes a bit of variety). In the real world, the 2 hourly 175 service would probably be perfectly sufficient.

My point is, if the WAG is going to spend money in this fashion, and it is for the time being, then a balncing working would make more sense.

You mention many good points, Greenback, the problem is Ieuan & his advisor's do not live in the real world,I am not aware of any consultation whatsoever for premium trains,or for that matter extra trains to Cardiff,the WAGAIR situation at a cost of £1.6M a year is without doubt elite extravagance, the new 175 service comes from the £3.5M subsidy and is almost an exact copy of the service run by Wales & Borders 158,this left Shrewsbury non stop to Hereford, now we are to have the 175 a decade later imitating that service.
TDKs professional knowledge of class 67s, touches on speed restrictions that will not have been taken into account in this haste to get another Cardiff service via Wrexham for political gain.
What as really occurred is this,the Birmingham train this 'express' replaces would have been the 1st off peak train out of Wrexham to Birmingham. I was informed yesterday Taith
the statutory consortium of transport advisor's for North Wales supplied a list of paths between Chester & Wrexham that would allow this service & continue the existing service
plus a service Chester to Shrewsbury to connect with Wag Ex Gerald, this statutory advisory services advice was ignored which as infuriated all North Wales Council areas it represents.
So in reality the only gain is Crewe that gets yet another Birmingham service to add to its 40 or more a day to New St.

Bob

 

[TDK]

You mention many good points, Greenback, the problem is Ieuan & his advisor's do not live in the real world,I am not aware of any consultation whatsoever for premium trains,or for that matter extra trains to Cardiff,the WAGAIR situation at a cost of £1.6M a year is without doubt elite extravagance, the new 175 service comes from the £3.5M subsidy and is almost an exact copy of the service run by Wales & Borders 158,this left Shrewsbury non stop to Hereford, now we are to have the 175 a decade later imitating that service.
TDKs professional knowledge of class 67s, touches on speed restrictions that will not have been taken into account in this haste to get another Cardiff service via Wrexham for political gain.
What as really occurred is this,the Birmingham train this 'express' replaces would have been the 1st off peak train out of Wrexham to Birmingham. I was informed yesterday Taith
the statutory consortium of transport advisor's for North Wales supplied a list of paths between Chester & Wrexham that would allow this service & continue the existing service
plus a service Chester to Shrewsbury to connect with Wag Ex Gerald, this statutory advisory services advice was ignored which as infuriated all North Wales Council areas it represents.
So in reality the only gain is Crewe that gets yet another Birmingham service to add to its 40 or more a day to New St.

Bob

And of course a bit more extraction for ATW from the other companies that use the route. ATW need VT to pull the plug to run WAG 2 at a reasonable time and this does not look like it is going to happen, using a 67 and DVT or a unit is the only way they can run via wrexham as the 57/stock fiasco the engine had to be run round, of course if the stock that is being refurbed is not ready by December (remember WSMR & GC) the 175 will continue, it is a good business move by ATW to run it as a 175 as they are getting WAG money for a "normal" HH-CDF service and more fare extraction on the busy Crewe - New Street corridor.

 

[merlodlliw]

And of course a bit more extraction for ATW from the other companies that use the route. ATW need VT to pull the plug to run WAG 2 at a reasonable time and this does not look like it is going to happen, using a 67 and DVT or a unit is the only way they can run via wrexham as the 57/stock fiasco the engine had to be run round, of course if the stock that is being refurbed is not ready by December (remember WSMR & GC) the 175 will continue, it is a good business move by ATW to run it as a 175 as they are getting WAG money for a "normal" HH-CDF service and more fare extraction on the busy Crewe - New Street corridor.

I don't see VT pulling out of Wrexham this year,ATW fell over itself to give up the two paths, which in passenger interest the down evening VT as been a disaster, if the VT is more than 5 down the connection to Shrewsbury is gone. Giving up these paths will haunt ATW.

ATW of course does not want the extra services to miss out Crewe,there is a big fare extraction for connectional services, which make up the majority of passengers on Gerald from what I see, as for 67s replacing the 57 pulling WAG Mark One,its all gone silent, Am I correct in thinking ATW own loco haul stock,bought a few years ago & as a result the MD got the sack,could these be the refurbs? this stock is being used tomorrow on the RugEx.
Of course rumours & only rumours abound about ex W/S stock. As you say a nice little earner for ATW being paid an extra £620K for 7 months use of a 175(see BBC link)

As ATW sees it from their press handout,much the same as the WAG version
http://www.arrivatrainswales.co.uk/Templates/News.aspx?pageid=2270

and the view from Wrexham County Council

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/mobile/uk-wales-north-east-wales-12692948

 

[tbtc]

more fare extraction on the busy Crewe - New Street corridor

I thought the (diverted) ATW service was running Holyhead - Chester - Crewe - Shrewsbury - Wolverhampton - Birmingham? In which case it wouldn't get any of the Crewe - Birmingham "pot", as it'd be overtaken by direct trains (via Stafford)?

 

[TDK]

I thought the (diverted) ATW service was running Holyhead - Chester - Crewe - Shrewsbury - Wolverhampton - Birmingham? In which case it wouldn't get any of the Crewe - Birmingham "pot", as it'd be overtaken by direct trains (via Stafford)?

If passengers travel on it any permitted will ATW not be able to extract? Is that the path via Shrewsbury or is it via Stafford?

 

[The Planner]

It will be Chester- Crewe - Shrewsbury. Otherwise they will be kicking out a Shrewsbury and Telford stop, can't see them doing that.

 

[TDK]

It will be Chester- Crewe - Shrewsbury. Otherwise they will be kicking out a Shrewsbury and Telford stop, can't see them doing that.

If that's the case will they not have to re-time a Man Pic - Cdf service?

 

[krus_aragon]

If that's the case will they not have to re-time a Man Pic - Cdf service?

Are these being recast anyway this timetable change? (I may be thinking of the northbound services)

 

[jones_bangor]

On the other hand the Wag Expresses are just Political toys, funded without any public consultation what so ever, just to get WAG staff & cronies to Cardiff,with Mark 2, in Cardiff in time for lunch and a short meeting, then back on Gerald mark 1 at 1615 for the journey to Junction while having dinner.

Oh yes,almost forgot we are paying for this farce.


Bob

Well, against the £50 million for the Porthmadog by-pass, and £35 million for the Newbridge-on-Wye by-pass, the money spent on the WAG Express (1 and 2) is peanuts. You're also paying for the by-passes - it's all a question of priorities!!

N.B. the WAG Express 1 is actually rather good (farce?) - and busy every time I've used it.

 

[TDK]

Well, against the £50 million for the Porthmadog by-pass, and £35 million for the Newbridge-on-Wye by-pass, the money spent on the WAG Express (1 and 2) is peanuts. You're also paying for the by-passes - it's all a question of priorities!!

N.B. the WAG Express 1 is actually rather good (farce?) - and busy every time I've used it.

Yes but the by passes are for the public where the WAG express is for the WAG MP's, divide the amont of MP's and the amount of people the by passes will benefit and then you may have a person per person costing of where our money goes. £7M is a lot of money to spend on 2 extra trains to transport the Welsh MP's to Cardiff, if their offices were in London that is where the WAG express would have gone to.

 

[jones_bangor]

Yes but the by passes are for the public where the WAG express is for the WAG MP's, divide the amont of MP's and the amount of people the by passes will benefit and then you may have a person per person costing of where our money goes. £7M is a lot of money to spend on 2 extra trains to transport the Welsh MP's to Cardiff, if their offices were in London that is where the WAG express would have gone to.

But I'm not an MP / AM, and as I said, the trains are busy, and I haven't seen any politicians.

I sense there's a combination of envy, anti nation building (i.e. devolved Wales) and pettiness at play in some of the never do well posts?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Primarily its effect is to attempt to stimulate a thin market. Many people feel that more established ones that are crying out for investment have been overlooked.

I travel to N Wales on business from Mid. Yes its great that I can get a through train to the North Wales Cost from Shrewsbury albeit with the only decent connection v early in the morning. However I'm often the only person left in the carriage on arrival at Chester whose going on to the Coast. (0515 ex CDF - lots of people commuting into Chester from Wrexham/Ruabon/Chirk though)
many people mistake "busy" for people doing local journeys on these longer distance services. There not busy with through traffic from North to South.

If WAG 1 carried 50 people on each run from North to South and vice versa that would still be less annual footfall than some village stations on the Cambrian Coast.

 

[krus_aragon]

My main 'envy' is that now that I live in Cardiff, both workings (south a.m., north p.m) are in the wrong direction for me to use them when visiting back north. If the second (loco-hauled) working were mirroring rather than shadowing the first, I'd find it more useful. The proposed 18:15 ex Cardiff may still be doable straight from work, but the fact that it's still a 175 for now means I may not chase after it.

As for the political aspects of direct North-South trains, I have to admit that they suit my main long distance journeys, and that I approve of the general principle of these trains.

(Admittedly, I don't post rants to this effect very often)

 

[jones_bangor]

Primarily its effect is to attempt to stimulate a thin market. Many people feel that more established ones that are crying out for investment have been overlooked.

But where? Links from North Wales to London are better than I can ever remember in terms of frequency & speed, there's a regular service (albeit slow via W'xham / Shrewsbury) to Birmingham. Llandudno - Manchester is hourly....

I travel to N Wales on business from Mid. Yes its great that I can get a through train to the North Wales Cost from Shrewsbury albeit with the only decent connection v early in the morning. However I'm often the only person left in the carriage on arrival at Chester whose going on to the Coast. (0515 ex CDF - lots of people commuting into Chester from Wrexham/Ruabon/Chirk though) many people mistake "busy" for people doing local journeys on these longer distance services. There not busy with through traffic from North to South.

If WAG 1 carried 50 people on each run from North to South and vice versa that would still be less annual footfall than some village stations on the Cambrian Coast.

When I last used WAG 1, it had several hundred people on it gradually emptying from Chester to Flint, Rhyl, mass exodus at Bangor....again, well used, and I'm not stretching it. The later up 175 at 17xx is always packed most of the way.

I can understand the morning demand Cardiff to North is less - Cardiff is the capital, you go to the capital of Wales just as people go to the capital of the UK in London to do business because that's where the big-wigs are.....

 

[merlodlliw]

Yes but the by passes are for the public where the WAG express is for the WAG MP's, divide the amont of MP's and the amount of people the by passes will benefit and then you may have a person per person costing of where our money goes. £7M is a lot of money to spend on 2 extra trains to transport the Welsh MP's to Cardiff, if their offices were in London that is where the WAG express would have gone to.

From the Local Flintshire/Wrexham daily, Flintshire another County left out of what is now a semi fast service. But perhaps WAGAIR may be diverted to Hawarden to make up for the omission.


http://www.leaderlive.co.uk/news/100005/express-train-omits-vital-north-wales-stop-flintshire-.aspx


Bob

 

[tbtc]

But where? Links from North Wales to London are better than I can ever remember in terms of frequency & speed, there's a regular service (albeit slow via W'xham / Shrewsbury) to Birmingham. Llandudno - Manchester is hourly....

Just a guess here, but, erm, Liverpool? Much bigger than Cardiff, much closer than Cardiff, lots of people travel between North Wales and Merseyside, but there are no direct trains.

Similarly, the direct service from Liverpool to Newport/Cardiff etc was withdrawn a few years ago.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

When I last used WAG 1, it had several hundred people on it gradually emptying from Chester to Flint, Rhyl, mass exodus at Bangor....again, well used, and I'm not stretching it

Several hundred. But was this people going from Cardiff to Cymbran/ Abergavenny and others from Crewe/Chester to the North Wales coast? From all accounts on here there are two distinct markets on the WAG Express, with only a few WAG staff doing the journey from north to south

 

[Gareth Marston]

But where? Links from North Wales to London are better than I can ever remember in terms of frequency & speed, there's a regular service (albeit slow via W'xham / Shrewsbury) to Birmingham. Llandudno - Manchester is hourly....

Lets see there's glaring holes in the Chletenham to Cardiff timetable, there should be direct trains to/from Cardiff over the Swansea District Line in the peaks for Wets Wales. Maesteg branch and VoG are only hourly and of course the Cambrian . The money spent on WAG 2 would have been better spent on 2 extra peak UP and 2 extra peak DOWN services in the Cambrian - it would have been cheaper to, less mileage less track access 158's cheaper than 175 etc. But more importantly it would have filled a genuine gap in services - commuter traffic to Shrewsbury connections from coast to Aber improved as well as being additional services and generated extra traffic and income for the railways.

Departing Holyhead before 0900 theirs 4 Virgin trains to Euston, 4 ATW to Cardiff and 2 to Birmingham already What on earth does a fifth Cardiff train bring to the party? Bangor is important but its not as though its deprived of trains at that time of day. The evening return will be tail chasing a VT service all the way to Holyhead along the coast.

 

[junglejames]

The only time ive used it, heading North, there were no spare seats from Cardiff, and it was like this virtually all the way to Crewe. The train started to empty at Crewe, but a few more got on. So from my observation, it would seem Cardiff to Crewe is the big one. Be interesting to know if it stays busy like this when/ if it goes via Wrexham.
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On the whole I have no problem with these trains. What I have a problem with is Arriva wanting so much extra money to run a loco hauled service. I havent worked any figures out, but if I was to take a guess, Id say Arriva were making quite a large profit on this subsidy, which is wrong.

Its said the railways need more stock. Its said Cardiff to Holyhead is a booming market. Therefore Arriva should be adding extra trains without subsidy. The only extra they should get (even if i think this is wrong) is the difference between operating a 175, and the loco hauled set. I somehow dont think it comes to this much. Infact, considering the WAG has taken off so well, and is usually full, the subsidy should now be the difference between operating two 175s, and the loco hauled set. Afterall, without Subsidy, Arriva should still be operating this service, just with two DMUs. But there is a big difference between what the TOCs should do, and what they do, do.

 

[tbtc]

Its said Cardiff to Holyhead is a booming market

I think any service increased from one train a day to eight or nine direct trains a day would see an increase in demand (especially at a time when passenger numbers are rising nationwide and when there is a growth in WAG staff who need to use such a service).

Different from the real demand on lines elsewhere in Wales, which are crying out for the kind of money spent on this political service

 

[junglejames]

I think any service increased from one train a day to eight or nine direct trains a day would see an increase in demand (especially at a time when passenger numbers are rising nationwide and when there is a growth in WAG staff who need to use such a service).

Different from the real demand on lines elsewhere in Wales, which are crying out for the kind of money spent on this political service

Which is why i say Arriva shouldnt be getting so much subsidy for these 2 extra services. They are responsible for ensuring other routes dont have the money spent on them. Instead taking this money as a nice profit.

It could be argued that the WAG should pull the plug on the subsidy, and spend it elsewhere, not letting themselves be robbed in broad daylight, but it could also be argued that they need to do something to avoid overcrowding (and obviously they pick the route of benefit to them!!!), and Arriva are making life as difficult as possible.

Both are partly to blame, but Arriva more so in my eyes.
What the WAG could possibly do, is to pull the plug on the subsidy, and then if the trains get scrapped, and the route becomes too overcrowded, then Arriva should get fined for this. To scrap trains that are needed, and not replace them, thus increasing overcrowding, is in my eyes a very good reason to crack down very hard on them. Its different if services were not there in the first place, but if they are, and then scrapped, then Arriva should be leant on very heavily. Same with any operator.

 

[merlodlliw]

The only time ive used it, heading North, there were no spare seats from Cardiff, and it was like this virtually all the way to Crewe. The train started to empty at Crewe, but a few more got on. So from my observation, it would seem Cardiff to Crewe is the big one. Be interesting to know if it stays busy like this when/ if it goes via Wrexham.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
On the whole I have no problem with these trains. What I have a problem with is Arriva wanting so much extra money to run a loco hauled service. I havent worked any figures out, but if I was to take a guess, Id say Arriva were making quite a large profit on this subsidy, which is wrong.

Its said the railways need more stock. Its said Cardiff to Holyhead is a booming market. Therefore Arriva should be adding extra trains without subsidy. The only extra they should get (even if i think this is wrong) is the difference between operating a 175, and the loco hauled set. I somehow dont think it comes to this much. Infact, considering the WAG has taken off so well, and is usually full, the subsidy should now be the difference between operating two 175s, and the loco hauled set. Afterall, without Subsidy, Arriva should still be operating this service, just with two DMUs. But there is a big difference between what the TOCs should do, and what they do, do.

In my opinion.
1. When both Wag Exs travel via Wrexham, they will carry less real fare paying passengers ,but those from the Statutory world will continue to use it.as it was designed for them. But numbers don't count whatsoever on these services. ATW will be loath to loose Crewe & dont want to due to the amount of income between Cardiff & Crewe. Wag Mark one had a path via Wrexham but ATW was having non of it. I agree Gerald is a good earner for ATW
£1.7M subsidy Dec 10 to Dec 11 plus all the fares.

2.The 175 via Wrexham for the 6 months or so,gains ATW £620K plus the fares, again a nice earner for a DMU ATW will obtain from another part of the franchise & no doubt replace with a 158/153/150.Flint will no doubt be added to the list of calls, Ruabon/Chirk & Gobowen have to be stops as this Cardiff service replaces another franchise service to Birmingham.

3.If these loco hauled trains,well from Dec 11(unless the new Minister kills off Gerald Mark one whose contract ends in Dec 11,) were designed for fare paying passengers without all this premier bolt on, fine, but in the unreal world of politics, what should happen in reality does not.

Looking in at first./Premier class on Gerald , on several occasions the average numbers are 5 on leaving Cardiff, sometimes only 2. As for WAGAIR whose subsidy is £1.6M a year including landing fees, I have yet to meet anyone who thinks this is money well spent,except of course the Minister.

Bob

 

[Greenback]

There isn't going to be much of a take up for Premier Class, since they are the only ATW trains with First Class - the only people who would consider buying such a ticket are those who can commit to that train. Add to that the elimination of free FC travel for many of the public sector employees that were entitled to it, and it is a bit pointless!

I think the point that there are other services in Wales that are more deserving of the kind of subsidy being paid out is a good one. My personal view is that devolution has been good for Wales, but that doesn;t necessarily mean that all the decisions made in Cardiff have been good ones (far from it!). I am in favour of more law making powers for the WAG, and more accountability for Ministers. Maybe we then would not have such decisions as WAG Air and the WAG Express foisted upon us when ther eis little economic justification!

 

[merlodlliw]

There isn't going to be much of a take up for Premier Class, since they are the only ATW trains with First Class - the only people who would consider buying such a ticket are those who can commit to that train. Add to that the elimination of free FC travel for many of the public sector employees that were entitled to it, and it is a bit pointless!

I think the point that there are other services in Wales that are more deserving of the kind of subsidy being paid out is a good one. My personal view is that devolution has been good for Wales, but that doesn;t necessarily mean that all the decisions made in Cardiff have been good ones (far from it!). I am in favour of more law making powers for the WAG, and more accountability for Ministers. Maybe we then would not have such decisions as WAG Air and the WAG Express foisted upon us when ther eis little economic justification!

Interesting points Greenback, as for the Premier Class, well certain ones at Wagtown Junction (LLJ) will use Premier Class along with a few A.Ms,I think during these times of cuts the Premier Idea should be dropped, few use it on Gerald from what I have seen anyhow.

Devolution is a fact in Wales,like it or not, some of the Transport Ministers ideas should be drawn to account,I agree on that,it is unbelievable one person can dispense £Ms without reason for any economic justification, and refuses to give costings to his own audit committee.

There are indeed areas of Wales that are desperate for rail services, Wrexham for example lost its double track to Chester through politics,almost 30 years ago now we have the largest town in North Wales bus orientated, Arriva Bus have brand new vehicles,well new last year, paid for by WAG running Wrexham to Chester rail station every 12 minutes all day & can not cope, only a return to the double track for more rail services will get the area back to rail thinking,more train services more people will use them. Current we have probably the busiest bus station with more services & revenue than anywhere outside of South Wales, yet through the single track The Wrexham area with its huge population & one train an hour ,only just tops Colwyn in rail revenue, we await the promised improvement to the line.