WAG express via Wrexham, WAG statement today

[Greenback]

In the end, it will probably be economic factors that decide whether HST's will be used on other routes. If it's cheaper to replace them due to lower running costs, including access charges, then they will be replaced!

 

[jones_bangor]

In the end, it will probably be economic factors that decide whether HST's will be used on other routes. If it's cheaper to replace them due to lower running costs, including access charges, then they will be replaced!

But the current access charge regime is heavily against LHCS.....

Personally, I hope the Con-Dems flog network rail to the new franchise holders.

 

[Greenback]

Yes, I believe that the it costs more to run LHCS at present, but the argument is that they cause more damage to the track, therefore making it more expensive to maintain.

I don't know if this will continue years down the line, if it doesn;t then loco and coaches may become more attractive options than they are now.

 

[TDK]

Yes, I believe that the it costs more to run LHCS at present, but the argument is that they cause more damage to the track, therefore making it more expensive to maintain.

I don't know if this will continue years down the line, if it doesn;t then loco and coaches may become more attractive options than they are now.

The answer to that is to design a loco with an RA5 this will then lower the costs consierably, the 67 has an RA8 rating and is very expensive on track access fees however the leasing of Engine and stock is a great deal less that units also taking into account DB own most of the mk3's available

 

[merlodlliw]

But the current access charge regime is heavily against LHCS.....

Personally, I hope the Con-Dems flog network rail to the new franchise holders.

I see good & bad in that (NR)

1.NR have gone in my opinion very sloppy & time does not matter in projects,grips for example over running by a year , perhaps another with business acumen & deadlines would improve this tomorrow will do thinking.
It seems if someone is off the project for months,the job stops.

2.The Wales & Borders franchise would be interesting to administer, but change must occur & I don't mean by devolving NR, The new Cardiff NR office wont help us up here, as TDK mentioned two or three areas of NR meet up at Wrexham.

I also wonder how long the ORR offices & staff will remain in Wrexham, with all this everything must be in South Wales thrust.

Bob

 

[jones_bangor]

I see good & bad in that (NR)

NR have gone in my opinion very sloppy & time does not matter in projects,grips for example over running by a year , perhaps another with business acumen & deadlines would improve this tomorrow will do thinking.
It seems if someone is off the project for months,the job stops.

I'm afraid it's symptomatic of the loss of control over project costs and timescales that's affected the whole public sector!

 

[cymro inside]

200 journeys per day from north to south including chester is an under estimate as there are many other journeys undertaken via newport, there would probably be 40 to 50 people a day travelling from bangor alone to places such as bristol bath swindon and taunton and the rest of the west country, people prefer the newport route as it is often easier to obtain advance purchase tickets that way.it is highly unlikely that we will ever see an atw service via stafford to birmingham again as london midland would object,so journeys to the west of england will mostly continue via newport.
going back to footfall figures at bangor they are seriously underestimated as at the time the figures refer to the two zone taith/north wales rover was cheaper than a day return from holyhead colwyn bay and abergele to bangor so the originating station would be counted but not the destination.given that there would be 200 commuters students schoolkids and shoppers every day into bangor from these stations the figures could be wrong by anything from45000 to 55000 per annum . three trains on the up tonught from bangor are full and standing i believe so there are capacity problems here too

 

[merlodlliw]

200 journeys per day from north to south including chester is an under estimate as there are many other journeys undertaken via newport, there would probably be 40 to 50 people a day travelling from bangor alone to places such as bristol bath swindon and taunton and the rest of the west country, people prefer the newport route as it is often easier to obtain advance purchase tickets that way.it is highly unlikely that we will ever see an atw service via stafford to birmingham again as london midland would object,so journeys to the west of england will mostly continue via newport.
going back to footfall figures at bangor they are seriously underestimated as at the time the figures refer to the two zone taith/north wales rover was cheaper than a day return from holyhead colwyn bay and abergele to bangor so the originating station would be counted but not the destination.given that there would be 200 commuters students schoolkids and shoppers every day into bangor from these stations the figures could be wrong by anything from45000 to 55000 per annum . three trains on the up tonught from bangor are full and standing i believe so there are capacity problems here too

As I said previous you can do anything with figures. BTW thought there was a ATW via Stafford to Birmingham running.

Bob

 

[TDK]

As I said previous you can do anything with figures. BTW thought there was a ATW via Stafford to Birmingham running.

Bob

I think there is only one and that is for route retention, it is fast from Wolverhampton to Crewe

 

[cymro inside]

one per day in each direction only

 

[tbtc]

there are many other journeys undertaken via newport, there would probably be 40 to 50 people a day travelling from bangor alone to places such as bristol bath swindon and taunton and the rest of the west country, people prefer the newport route

There were trains from the Marshes Line to Bristol and South West England for many years. The only reason such direct trains don't exist today is politicians in Cardiff.

 

[Greenback]

I'm not sure that is correct - I think it has more to do with the franchise boundaries. These were set by DfT in London when the franchise was created.

 

[tbtc]

I'm not sure that is correct - I think it has more to do with the franchise boundaries. These were set by DfT in London when the franchise was created.

Fair point, but I don't think there'd have been any objections from FGW if the Wales & Borders franchise winner had applied to run sum services between Shrewsbury/ Hereford/ Bristol. I really don't think the obsession with Cardiff has helped the railways.

 

[ivanhoe]

I am not Welsh so I can only view this through my English Eyes. I reckon that North Waleian Towns like Wrexham are more economically attached to the North West of England & the Midlands than to Cardiff. Therefore the loss of a thru train to Birmingham is probably more of a loss than the extra train to Cardiff and Holyhead.

Unfortunately, Politicians never discuss this with the people who elected them or bury it in page 989 of their manifesto. Do the people of Wrexham have a choice? Not really. They would rather the subsidy be used for other transport projects . But the needs of the Politicians are sacrasant!

 

[Greenback]

Fair point, but I don't think there'd have been any objections from FGW if the Wales & Borders franchise winner had applied to run sum services between Shrewsbury/ Hereford/ Bristol. I really don't think the obsession with Cardiff has helped the railways.

We can only speculate on that! FGW would have had to give up some of the revenue share between Newport and Bristol, and Severn Tunnel Junction/Bristol if the trains would stop there!

I am not Welsh so I can only view this through my English Eyes. I reckon that North Waleian Towns like Wrexham are more economically attached to the North West of England & the Midlands than to Cardiff. Therefore the loss of a thru train to Birmingham is probably more of a loss than the extra train to Cardiff and Holyhead.

Unfortunately, Politicians never discuss this with the people who elected them or bury it in page 989 of their manifesto. Do the people of Wrexham have a choice? Not really. They would rather the subsidy be used for other transport projects . But the needs of the Politicians are sacrasant!

Yes, the economic and regional ties for most of North Wales are with the North West of England, and cities such as Manchester, Liverpool and Chester. This does not stop the politicians trying to improve the links between South and North Wales. My only objection is when the links to the traitional regional centres are worsened. There is an argument that this is exactly what has happened, but I don;t agree 100% with that assessment.

 

[merlodlliw]

I am not Welsh so I can only view this through my English Eyes. I reckon that North Waleian Towns like Wrexham are more economically attached to the North West of England & the Midlands than to Cardiff. Therefore the loss of a thru train to Birmingham is probably more of a loss than the extra train to Cardiff and Holyhead.

Unfortunately, Politicians never discuss this with the people who elected them or bury it in page 989 of their manifesto. Do the people of Wrexham have a choice? Not really. They would rather the subsidy be used for other transport projects . But the needs of the Politicians are sacrasant!

Fully agree, The Cardiff Based Western Mail tried to get a foothold in North Wales years ago, but never succeeded other than sell a few hundred to libraries etc, whereas the Liverpool Daily Post, now the Daily Post printed in Oldham Manchester, sells thousands and is the largest read daily in North Wales, politicians & those who work or are connected with statutory organisations, want the extra Cardiff services, The majority in Wrexham prefer to travel to Liverpool/Chester/Manchester & Birmingham, now we will loose a Birmingham service for politics.

I mentioned the Daily Post as an indicator of preference of choice, sadly this does not apply to the railway, there was no need to reroute the Birmingham Service whatsoever, but haste by the Minister before the election in May never took took the public's wishes into account.

Bob

 

[jones_bangor]

I am not Welsh so I can only view this through my English Eyes. I reckon that North Waleian Towns like Wrexham are more economically attached to the North West of England & the Midlands than to Cardiff. Therefore the loss of a thru train to Birmingham is probably more of a loss than the extra train to Cardiff and Holyhead.

Unfortunately, Politicians never discuss this with the people who elected them or bury it in page 989 of their manifesto. Do the people of Wrexham have a choice? Not really. They would rather the subsidy be used for other transport projects . But the needs of the Politicians are sacrasant!

I don't think anyone would argue that the North of Wales is more economically tied to the North West of England than to South Wales. This is common sense and I don't think anyone (even Plaid Cymru) are trying to change that. Devolution wasn't about cutting Wales off from England, rebuilding Offa's Dyke etc, it's about Wales making its own economic + political decisions. I feel the pace of devolution will slow significantly now that law making powers are here - it's time to get on with building the Welsh economy (private not public).

With regards WAG2, I would have thought the 06:29 HH - CC would have made the ideal candidate to be beefed up to Gerald standard without affecting the Birmingham services.

TBH, I still don't see why adding a link from North Wales line to the Bidston-Wrexham line at Shotton hasn't been looked at more seriously - surely this would be a lot cheaper than redoubling Saltney to Wrexham?

 

[Greenback]

Hang on Bob, hasn't there been a campaign to get the Cardiff train routed via Wrexham? It would be ideal if that was an extra train, but I gather it's not possible to path it? So it could be said that the rerouteing has been in response to the public's wishes!

 

[jones_bangor]

Hang on Bob, hasn't there been a campaign to get the Cardiff train routed via Wrexham? It would be ideal if that was an extra train, but I gather it's not possible to path it? So it could be said that the rerouteing has been in response to the public's wishes!

Who'd be a politician? Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

[merlodlliw]

Hang on Bob, hasn't there been a campaign to get the Cardiff train routed via Wrexham? It would be ideal if that was an extra train, but I gather it's not possible to path it? So it could be said that the rerouteing has been in response to the public's wishes!

No the re routing is the local Politicians wishes, The local rail consortia Taith
found a spare path, to run The WAG through Wrexham,this was ignored. Also if the local Politicians had known Wrexham would loose a heavy used Birmingham,things may have taken a different direction.


Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't think anyone would argue that the North of Wales is more economically tied to the North West of England than to South Wales. This is common sense and I don't think anyone (even Plaid Cymru) are trying to change that. Devolution wasn't about cutting Wales off from England, rebuilding Offa's Dyke etc, it's about Wales making its own economic + political decisions. I feel the pace of devolution will slow significantly now that law making powers are here - it's time to get on with building the Welsh economy (private not public).

With regards WAG2, I would have thought the 06:29 HH - CC would have made the ideal candidate to be beefed up to Gerald standard without affecting the Birmingham services.

TBH, I still don't see why adding a link from North Wales line to the Bidston-Wrexham line at Shotton hasn't been looked at more seriously - surely this would be a lot cheaper than redoubling Saltney to Wrexham?

I don't want to get involved in Political aspirations, But the Current Minister of health for Wales(Lab/Plaid ), wanted the work at Walton Hospital, transferred to South Wales, but this was soon thrown out, anyhow back to railways,Shotton there is no way ATW etc would want to loose Chester,even if the two could be joined up at Shotton, how could it be done, easier to put a curve at Saltney, both lines are on ground level.

Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Who'd be a politician? Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Not really, just consult real people, what they want.


Bob

 

[jones_bangor]

w back to railways,Shotton there is no way ATW etc would want to loose Chester,even if the two could be joined up at Shotton, how could it be done, easier to put a curve at Saltney, both lines are on ground level.

Shotton - the trackbed of the old Wrexham, Mold & Connah's Quay Rly is still there, it would be relatively straightforward to link the North Wales coast line to the rising embankment (still there) and join with the Wrexham - Bidston line.

The lines were joined, but via sidings, in days gone by.

I would suggest a good deal cheaper (than redoubling Saltney - Wrexham), and would allow HH - CC's to call at Buckley and serve Mold area.

 

[The Planner]

Probably not, and would take a lot longer as I would suspect it would need a TWA to get it going. Google seems to show a fair bit of development on it too, especially at Broughton.

 

[jones_bangor]

Probably not, and would take a lot longer as I would suspect it would need a TWA to get it going. Google seems to show a fair bit of development on it too, especially at Broughton.

The new track would only be a few hundred yards long, and have walked it myself. Very do-able, I don't think there's much development there - it's currently a cyclepath.

 

[connor7777]

what about old WSMR stock, already refurbished, ATW dont need to spend anthing on them.

 

[TDK]

what about old WSMR stock, already refurbished, ATW dont need to spend anthing on them.

Because the ex WSMR stock is not available

 

[merlodlliw]

Shotton - the trackbed of the old Wrexham, Mold & Connah's Quay Rly is still there, it would be relatively straightforward to link the North Wales coast line to the rising embankment (still there) and join with the Wrexham - Bidston line.

The lines were joined, but via sidings, in days gone by.

I would suggest a good deal cheaper (than redoubling Saltney - Wrexham), and would allow HH - CC's to call at Buckley and serve Mold area.

Doubling the line Wrexham to Saltney is the key,most people want to travel to or via Chester not Shotton, which they already can,
I can never see a link at Shotton, or the need for one. Third rail into Liverpool would make more sense on this line in my opinion
WAG provided brand new buses last year so that Arriva could run a 12 minutes shuttle service Wrexham to Chester Rail Station,which looks like it will be more frequent,due to demand this must be the wrong way to shift thousands of people a day.
Bob

 

[tbtc]

I would suggest a good deal cheaper (than redoubling Saltney - Wrexham), and would allow HH - CC's to call at Buckley and serve Mold area.

So you'd lose the service from the North Wales Coast to Chester and lose the service from Chester to Wrexham/Shrewsbury etc?

Is it really worth reducing those links?

 

[merlodlliw]

Probably not, and would take a lot longer as I would suspect it would need a TWA to get it going. Google seems to show a fair bit of development on it too, especially at Broughton.

I think you have got the Saltney/Mold/Denbigh line that passed through Broughton & Bretton, this was to become a W/C/H route , a feasibility study as taken place funded by Flints CC, but it appears parcels of the line have been sold off or claimed.

As for the old branch at Saltney now a Flints CC W/C/H route, if this was to become a line, it would face opposition from every quarter.

Bob

 

[emoaconr]

Shotton - the trackbed of the old Wrexham, Mold & Connah's Quay Rly is still there, it would be relatively straightforward to link the North Wales coast line to the rising embankment (still there) and join with the Wrexham - Bidston line.

The lines were joined, but via sidings, in days gone by.

I would suggest a good deal cheaper (than redoubling Saltney - Wrexham), and would allow HH - CC's to call at Buckley and serve Mold area.

It still seems a difficult thing to do.

It would be nice if they were joined, but I don't think its a priority; electrification and redoubling are probably more important. Plus we'd lose the service to Wrexham Central.

The existing WMCQR embankment seems to have been built on somewhat so perhaps there needs to be an alteration somewhere along the way.

 

[merlodlliw]

It still seems a difficult thing to do.

It would be nice if they were joined, but I don't think its a priority; electrification and redoubling are probably more important. Plus we'd lose the service to Wrexham Central.

The existing WMCQR embankment seems to have been built on somewhat so perhaps there needs to be an alteration somewhere along the way.

Shotton is an idea, but its not going to happen, The line Between Wrexham & Saltney should see some kind of redouble commence within the next two years according to the outgoing Minister(Money is locked in for it) or WAG will have to buy & run more buses to/from Chester Rail Station to cope with demand, the 12 minute service is at saturation level already.

BTW, if North Wales trains switched at Shotton, they would not stop at all stations, so would not effect the line to Central & Mold is too far out from Buckley to attract more users in my opinion, just as quick to travel down the hill from Mold to Flint station,as WAG 2 will now almost certainly call at Flint.

Bob