WAG express via Wrexham, WAG statement today

[Greenback]

I agree, my main point about FC Gerald is that few will see the point of buying a FC ticket. This would apply to any route where there are only a limited number of FC services, unless you cna guarantee you will be on a FC service, there's no point in considering a FC ticket at all!

 

[Rhydgaled]

Surely what is needed is a fast service in the opposite direction - ie outwards from Cardiff in the morning and return from Holyhead at teatime.

if there is to be a second 'premium' train, it should allow those in the South to unite with those in the North as well! I see little point in a second service two hours or so behind the first.

My main 'envy' is that now that I live in Cardiff, both workings (south a.m., north p.m) are in the wrong direction for me to use them when visiting back north. If the second (loco-hauled) working were mirroring rather than shadowing the first, I'd find it more useful.

I agree completly. I like the idea of the first WAG express very much, although making it slightly later might be an improvment (they should see how the 2 compare until December, then keep the better used service and put the other starting from the opposite end).

In fact, I think there should really be 5 premier push-pull loco-hauled north-south fast trains.

• Cardiff - Llandudno via Wrexham - 1 each way in the morning, returning in the evening
• Cardiff - Holyhead via Brecon, Builth Wells, Llanidloes, Newtown (maybe), Porthmadog and Bangor - 1 each way in the morning, returning in the evening, plus 1 each way in the middle of the day.

The other direct Holyhead - Cardiff (175 operated) trains would probablly be changed to serve what seems to be regarded as more popular destonations (Mancheser or Liverpool). Unfortunatlly alot of the railway needed for the second route is missing, so for now 1 each way, morning and evening via Wrexham to Holyhead rather than Llandudno will have to do for now.

The air link and bypasses though are encouraging more poluting forms of travel (actually making the more poluting form of travel possible in the case of the air link), and as such I am very much against them.

Lets see there's glaring holes in the Chletenham to Cardiff timetable, there should be direct trains to/from Cardiff over the Swansea District Line in the peaks for West Wales. Maesteg branch and VoG are only hourly and of course the Cambrian. The money spent on WAG 2 would have been better spent on 2 extra peak UP and 2 extra peak DOWN services in the Cambrian - it would have been cheaper to, less mileage less track access 158's cheaper than 175 etc. But more importantly it would have filled a genuine gap in services - commuter traffic to Shrewsbury connections from coast to Aber improved as well as being additional services and generated extra traffic and income for the railways.

I think you may have heard this from me before, but I think the Holyhead - Birminghams should be given 57s (or 47s) with standard class mrk2 stock inc. DBSO which as they are 4-car at present would free up alot of 158s. 3 158s would give a fast train every two hours from Cardiff to Fishguard via the Swansea District line, which also gives fast journeys to Carmarthen. The other 158s could be used in many ways, if putting 150s onto the Cheltenham workings doesn't release enough 158s to make the Cambrian main line hourly then this is what they should be used for. These are more important than the north-south expresses, even though I'm in favor of them (provided they were mirrors rather than shadows).

 

[jones_bangor]

There are indeed areas of Wales that are desperate for rail services, Wrexham for example lost its double track to Chester through politics

But with all due respect, Wrexham enjoys far better linkages with Cardiff than the rest of North Wales - it's another 1 hr + on from Wrexham to Llandudno Jcn and Bangor.........

Personally, I feel the double track issue is a real red herring.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

.......k, as for the Premier Class, well certain ones at Wagtown Junction (LLJ) will use Premier Class along with a few A.Ms,I think during these times of cuts the Premier Idea should be dropped, few use it on Gerald from what I have seen anyhow.

Probably be a lot cheaper to run - 4 x standard MK 2 or 3s with a DVT - 67.

Who exactly does use "Premier Class " on the ATW Express? - I don't think any civil servants are allowed such luxury in these austere times.

 

[junglejames]

But where? Links from North Wales to London are better than I can ever remember in terms of frequency & speed, there's a regular service (albeit slow via W'xham / Shrewsbury) to Birmingham. Llandudno - Manchester is hourly....

Lets see there's glaring holes in the Chletenham to Cardiff timetable, there should be direct trains to/from Cardiff over the Swansea District Line in the peaks for Wets Wales. Maesteg branch and VoG are only hourly and of course the Cambrian . The money spent on WAG 2 would have been better spent on 2 extra peak UP and 2 extra peak DOWN services in the Cambrian - it would have been cheaper to, less mileage less track access 158's cheaper than 175 etc. But more importantly it would have filled a genuine gap in services - commuter traffic to Shrewsbury connections from coast to Aber improved as well as being additional services and generated extra traffic and income for the railways.

Departing Holyhead before 0900 theirs 4 Virgin trains to Euston, 4 ATW to Cardiff and 2 to Birmingham already What on earth does a fifth Cardiff train bring to the party? Bangor is important but its not as though its deprived of trains at that time of day. The evening return will be tail chasing a VT service all the way to Holyhead along the coast.

You say the Cambrian should have a couple of extra services. But if the traffic is there to warrant these services (which i assume it is) then ATW should be providing these services without subsidy. Of course, we know they wont because its more money for them if you have the same numbers of people on less trains, even if people are standing.
So this isnt down to WAG and spending money on the loco haulage. This is down to ATW and the fact they dont give two hoots about people travelling on this line. Privatisation was supposed to bring innovation and investment. However this only really happened in the early days.
BR had more innovation, and it seems most of the investment comes from Government (either directly or through extra subsidies).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I agree completly. I like the idea of the first WAG express very much, although making it slightly later might be an improvment (they should see how the 2 compare until December, then keep the better used service and put the other starting from the opposite end).

In fact, I think there should really be 5 premier push-pull loco-hauled north-south fast trains.

• Cardiff - Llandudno via Wrexham - 1 each way in the morning, returning in the evening
• Cardiff - Holyhead via Brecon, Builth Wells, Llanidloes, Newtown (maybe), Porthmadog and Bangor - 1 each way in the morning, returning in the evening, plus 1 each way in the middle of the day.

The other direct Holyhead - Cardiff (175 operated) trains would probablly be changed to serve what seems to be regarded as more popular destonations (Mancheser or Liverpool). Unfortunatlly alot of the railway needed for the second route is missing, so for now 1 each way, morning and evening via Wrexham to Holyhead rather than Llandudno will have to do for now.

The air link and bypasses though are encouraging more poluting forms of travel (actually making the more poluting form of travel possible in the case of the air link), and as such I am very much against them.

I think you may have heard this from me before, but I think the Holyhead - Birminghams should be given 57s (or 47s) with standard class mrk2 stock inc. DBSO which as they are 4-car at present would free up alot of 158s. 3 158s would give a fast train every two hours from Cardiff to Fishguard via the Swansea District line, which also gives fast journeys to Carmarthen. The other 158s could be used in many ways, if putting 150s onto the Cheltenham workings doesn't release enough 158s to make the Cambrian main line hourly then this is what they should be used for. These are more important than the north-south expresses, even though I'm in favor of them (provided they were mirrors rather than shadows).

Any operator suffering from overcrowding/ lack of stock should be forced to use loco haulage. However it may cost more than usual, and so are far too happy to go 100% along with the DaFT and everything they say. The DaFT is their excuse for spending no money and lacking innovation. You would need to palm the hands of the accountants with silver (or gold) before they ran loco hauled trains, even if it wouldnt cost that much extra.
Privatisation= Private investment, once given it in subsidies from the government.

 

[merlodlliw]

But with all due respect, Wrexham enjoys far better linkages with Cardiff than the rest of North Wales - it's another 1 hr + on from Wrexham to Llandudno Jcn and Bangor.........

Personally, I feel the double track issue is a real red herring.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Probably be a lot cheaper to run - 4 x standard MK 2 or 3s with a DVT - 67.

Who exactly does use "Premier Class " on the ATW Express? - I don't think any civil servants are allowed such luxury in these austere times.

The Minister and his aids use Premier Class, I have seen him on it with his staff, who are civil servants this BTW was two weeks ago.

Explain your version of Red Herring please. I was under the impression that red herring was the flight between Valley & Rhoose.

Oh & welcome to Rail UK Forums,

Bob

 

[cymro inside]

actually wrexham beats colwyn bay on revenue by 35 per cent,here is an idea of what happened in january.. (all figures are points rather than cash figures as i cannot betray my scource and atw wouldnt like exact revenue figures being posted so ive taken chester as the base worth 100 points for the month ......
chester 100 shrewsbury 38.3 bangor 26.4 wrexham 15.2 rhyl 13.6 aberystwyth 10.4 colwyn bay 10.4 llan jct 10.4 flint 7.2 these are winter figures,rhyl would beat wrexham in the 3 summer months but these figures prove that footfall isnt the whole story,you have to provide for the all year round market and that means looking after bangors needs(passengers from bangor travel longer distances than say rhyl, nearly fifteen per cent of all travel from rhyl is to prestatyn and colwyn bay so it matters little to these people what the destination of the train is. sorry i havent posted for the last 48 hours but i was in cardiff watching the rugby using trains that some of you feel shouldnt exist.

 

[krus_aragon]

Those figures, are they net revenue attributed to a station, or just ATW's typical revenue per station? (i.e. Is Chester worth three times more money to ATW than Bangor, or does the figure include VT/Merseyrail/Northern services as well?)

 

[merlodlliw]

Those figures, are they net revenue attributed to a station, or just ATW's typical revenue per station? (i.e. Is Chester worth three times more money to ATW than Bangor, or does the figure include VT/Merseyrail/Northern services as well?)

An interesting figure from National Rails own website.

Annual rail passenger usage. 2009/10

Bangor 0.592 million
Wrexham 0.584 million

Chester latest figure 2008/9 2.999 million

Wrexham as two trains an hour, one toc
Chester is served by 4 tocs

Figures can say anything.


Bob

 

[cymro inside]

and you forget that some of those wrexham figures are for the bidston branch so i think you need to re calculate
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
oops nearly forgot to mention that the stats for wrexam are inflated by the fact that commuters from crewe to chester buy tickets to wrexham cos they are cheaper than chester from crewe so that inflates wrexham figures too

 

[tbtc]

An interesting figure from National Rails own website.

Annual rail passenger usage. 2009/10

Bangor 0.592 million
Wrexham 0.584 million

Wrexham as two trains an hour, one toc

Surely Wrexham has the same two TOCs which use Bangor?

The number of passengers is only one indicator; a number of those Bangor passengers will be travelling significantly further (given the University etc), which highlights its importance to the national network)

 

[merlodlliw]

and you forget that some of those wrexham figures are for the bidston branch so i think you need to re calculate
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
oops nearly forgot to mention that the stats for wrexam are inflated by the fact that commuters from crewe to chester buy tickets to wrexham cos they are cheaper than chester from crewe so that inflates wrexham figures too

The figures given are for Wrexham General,Wrexham Central as its own figures, check the site, as I said you can do anything with figures, the two VT services at Wrexham btw replace ATW locals who gave up the paths.

Bob

 

[Greenback]

There is more to it than revenue as merlodlliw says. There is more than just footfall too. In reality it is probably a combination of many things that determines the elvel of service a station gets, including local stakeholders and user groups.

I don't think the premium trains are a good use of resources. U think there are better projects that the money can go towards, whether it be redoubling, an extra evening train on the Cambrian Coast, or more rolling stock to relieve overcrowding on routes that are busy at the moment.

 

[jones_bangor]

I don't think the premium trains are a good use of resources. U think there are better projects that the money can go towards, whether it be redoubling, an extra evening train on the Cambrian Coast, or more rolling stock to relieve overcrowding on routes that are busy at the moment.

But the Premium Trains are only replacing an existing 158 / 175 path in most cases. They are an intercity standard service between North and South Wales - personally I think the whole lot (i.e. North - South services) should be LHCS, not necessarily with 1st class may I add!

 

[tbtc]

personally I think the whole lot (i.e. North - South services) should be LHCS

Why (out of curiosity)?

 

[Gareth Marston]

But the Premium Trains are only replacing an existing 158 / 175 path in most cases. They are an intercity standard service between North and South Wales - personally I think the whole lot (i.e. North - South services) should be LHCS, not necessarily with 1st class may I add!

Does anyone have any inside track on the actual numbers of passengers that travel form North to South Wales and Vice Versa? How many a day - not just on Match days in Cardiff. I'll take Chester in the figures. I don't live in a Cardiff or Gog bubble. I'll take a punt there's around 200 average each way. I go up and down the Marches line on business regularly so I am talking from personal observation. The actual market cannot justify the 9/10 trains a day.

I don't think anyone is objecting to the fact that there are through trains between North and South Wales. What gets most people upset is the constant prioritising of limited additional resources for rail into running more of these trains which is inevitably at the expense of other parts of Wales.

Bangor is relatively privileged- you have several through (and quick) trains to London which many places larger than Bangor don't - its therefore not surprising that people use them!

 

[jones_bangor]

The actual market cannot justify the 9/10 trains a day.

I don't think anyone is objecting to the fact that there are through trains between North and South Wales. What gets most people upset is the constant prioritising of limited additional resources for rail into running more of these trains which is inevitably at the expense of other parts of Wales.

But surely more LHCS frees up a DMU for bolstering services elsewhere in Wales?

 

[Gareth Marston]

But surely more LHCS frees up a DMU for bolstering services elsewhere in Wales?

Neither WAG 1 or WAG 2 have or will on current plans free up any DMU's. There additional to the 2 hrly Holyhead to Cdf trains introduced in 2005. That's why everyone's getting so irate. The 1 a day pre 2003 was not sufficient, many thought the 8 a day introduced in 2005 was excessive now we have at great cost the numbers up to 10.

There was a proposal which never took off for an open access service running 3 trains a day. Personally I feel that number would be sufficient.

The North Wales Coast tt is somewhat unbalanced. does it really need 3 tph in the off peak between Chester and Llandudno Jnc? This happens every second hour when VT runs and now increasingly more with WAG 1 and 2.

As a general rule the line should have at 30 minute intervals 2 tph from Chester to Llandudno Jnc off peak, 1 going on Llandudno one to Holyhead. This gives scope to run 3 Cardiff trains plus some extras in the peaks.

 

[jones_bangor]

Neither WAG 1 or WAG 2 have or will on current plans free up any DMU's. There additional to the 2 hrly Holyhead to Cdf trains introduced in 2005. That's why everyone's getting so irate.

The North Wales Coast is somewhat unbalanced. does it really need 3 tph in the off peak between Chester and Llandudno Jnc?

But I prefer catching the WAG Express if I can - sitting back at a table seat with a bacon sarnie and a ground coffeee beats a crowded 158 / 175 any day where the trolley rarely turns up anyway!

Well I would, perhaps selfishly as I live nr Bangor, say yes. Remember in the "old days" the trains were a LHCS of 4/5 carriages. Most are now 2 or 3 car DMUs.

 

[Greenback]

There is no doubt that there is an appeal in using the WAG Expres from bangor in preference to the DMU's.

However the same ability to choose to sit with a bacon sarnie and a ground coffee is being denied those in South Wales who want to travel to the North in the morning!

 

[jones_bangor]

There is no doubt that there is an appeal in using the WAG Expres from bangor in preference to the DMU's.

However the same ability to choose to sit with a bacon sarnie and a ground coffee is being denied those in South Wales who want to travel to the North in the morning!

Well, I would be fully supportive of a northbound morning Gerald.

 

[Greenback]

Would that be in place of the second train?

 

[jones_bangor]

Would that be in place of the second train?

It'd be good if the whole North - South service was LHCS.

Not necessarily to the "Premier" standard - maybe 3 SO Mk2's and FO MK2?

 

[junglejames]

How about scrapping the WAGs, and just running the normal 8 trains per day, but with LHCS replacing a couple of the diagrams? It would cost less in extra subsidy (even though for this idea ATW really shouldnt get extra subsidy), and it does free up a couple of units.
Hey, you may even get the stock to run 3 LHCS diagrams.
Admittedly having these right now as extras is a waste, and ive always thought its stupid that they do nothing all day in Cardiff.
You could definitely get the stock to make improvements elsewhere, but only if the WAG dont run 'extra' trains with the LHCS, and if ATW can be sensible, and realise they have to take LHCS to release units for elsewhere.

 

[merlodlliw]

How about scrapping the WAGs, and just running the normal 8 trains per day, but with LHCS replacing a couple of the diagrams? It would cost less in extra subsidy (even though for this idea ATW really shouldnt get extra subsidy), and it does free up a couple of units.
Hey, you may even get the stock to run 3 LHCS diagrams.
Admittedly having these right now as extras is a waste, and ive always thought its stupid that they do nothing all day in Cardiff.
You could definitely get the stock to make improvements elsewhere, but only if the WAG dont run 'extra' trains with the LHCS, and if ATW can be sensible, and realise they have to take LHCS to release units for elsewhere.

What you mention James, is how a passenger sees it, and the way it should be, but deals have been done behind closed doors, ATW have a signed contract to run WAG 2 to the end of this franchise with £3.5M subsidy plus bolt on extras that have not yet become visible within the public domain,a good leak was the £620K for ATW to run a 175 via Wrexham for 6 months.
We are lumbered with WAGAIR for years, and Geralds contract is up for renewal in December, perhaps £2M for next year? unless the new Minister kills it off.
ATW will not give up all this subsidy plus the fares it keeps, I have no problem with extra services at all, so long as they are sensible & without all this Premier bolt on to feed the elite,nothing wrong with a buffet & real carriages. As ATW keep saying,if you want extra services,you pay for them.

Having these trains lie idle in Cardiff for 6 hours, shows no business acumen whatsoever,so sadly lacking in professional politicians.

Bob

 

[TDK]

It'd be good if the whole North - South service was LHCS.

Not necessarily to the "Premier" standard - maybe 3 SO Mk2's and FO MK2?

That is fine from an enthusiasts point of view but 90% of passengers are not bothered on the the train type but just want to get to their destination, the point made regarding replacing existing services with LHCS is a very valid one and that is what Chiltern are doing to free up units with no extra subsidy, the key here is the WAG want a dedicated train times for themselves and ATW want the extra money from the WAG, if the WAG told ATW to run with LHCS on their exusting services this would not happen unless the franchise agreement was changed so it is in their franchise agreement to run extra trains, LHCS is a lot cheaper to hire than new units and a lot cheaper to maintain, maybe when the WAG pull the plug on Gerald the stock being refurbished may stay with the franchise holder, up until that time the WAG express will be a separate entity.

 

[cle]

What's wrong with 3tph along the North Wales Coast?

The traffic along the A55 can be crazy, and it's the only viable road route (not to mention the spectre of Brunstrom hanging over drivers) - and this is a fairly dense concentration of similar sized towns with a fair bit of movement between them and to Chester. I don't see why higher frequency services wouldn't encourage more rail travel along the coast.

Maybe not to Holyhead, but from Bangor and Llandudno to Chester could be higher frequency, and some could call at the tiny forgotten stations (including Conwy!) where I'm sure there is suppressed demand and an easy mobility which isn't being exploited.

 

[merlodlliw]

What's wrong with 3tph along the North Wales Coast?

The traffic along the A55 can be crazy, and it's the only viable road route (not to mention the spectre of Brunstrom hanging over drivers) - and this is a fairly dense concentration of similar sized towns with a fair bit of movement between them and to Chester. I don't see why higher frequency services wouldn't encourage more rail travel along the coast.

Maybe not to Holyhead, but from Bangor and Llandudno to Chester could be higher frequency, and some could call at the tiny forgotten stations (including Conwy!) where I'm sure there is suppressed demand and an easy mobility which isn't being exploited.

I used to live in Rhyl many years ago,I don't recognise the place now,awful.
I am sure you are correct, local people want to travel by rail, the A55 unless you travel in the night is terrible, current ATW have an half hourly service on the up from Junction calling at most stations, plus the VTs 8? of them.
in the peak 12 weeks June to Aug they are chocker late morning to early evening, same diagrams 1st Jan acceptable, 1st August impossible.#
In the old days extra services were laid on, now the extra services are political to Cardiff, but not on a Summer Sat or Sun which are peak travel days. Until we have a service that caters people will use the car,I have seen two coach 158s & 3 coach 175s arrive in Rhyl already standing in summer And we have another 7 years of this franchise.
Gareth is probably correct, half hourly is probably about correct outside the 12 peak weeks, whereas two hourly on the Cambrian in summer is difficult.

I appreciate an extra million are on holiday between Talacre & Llandudno in the peak weeks,the majority never use the train.

Bob

 

[Gareth Marston]

What's wrong with 3tph along the North Wales Coast?

The traffic along the A55 can be crazy, and it's the only viable road route (not to mention the spectre of Brunstrom hanging over drivers) - and this is a fairly dense concentration of similar sized towns with a fair bit of movement between them and to Chester. I don't see why higher frequency services wouldn't encourage more rail travel along the coast.

Maybe not to Holyhead, but from Bangor and Llandudno to Chester could be higher frequency, and some could call at the tiny forgotten stations (including Conwy!) where I'm sure there is suppressed demand and an easy mobility which isn't being exploited.

To make it clear I did say off peak and I was talking about allocation of today's resources not some hypothetical future. I would include ferry times, summer months in peak as well as too work and back.

 

[jones_bangor]

regarding replacing existing services with LHCS is a very valid one and that is what Chiltern are doing to free up units with no extra subsidy

Presumably there'll be a whole load of Mark 3 carriages available after IEP, with lots of potential for cascade onto secondary routes? It would be a shame to scrap HST's if they could give reliable services on routes like Holyhead - Cardiff or Norwich - Liverpool?

 

[TDK]

Presumably there'll be a whole load of Mark 3 carriages available after IEP, with lots of potential for cascade onto secondary routes? It would be a shame to scrap HST's if they could give reliable services on routes like Holyhead - Cardiff or Norwich - Liverpool?

There may be a lot of Mk 3 coaches becoming available but you also need DVT's and locos also and they are not easily available, the HST Mk3's have to be renovated to be able to run with a DVT and loco also and it is not just quick fix either, it is just not practicable to run LHCS without top and tail or with a DVT as the engine needs to run round.