WAG express via Wrexham, WAG statement today

[merlodlliw]

A statement will be made today I am reliably informed by the Transport Minister for Wales Ieuan Wyn Jones, that WAG Express mark two will travel via Wrexham. (Subsidy £3.5M for 7 years)

The downside is a service Holyhead to Birmingham will no longer call at Ruabon,Chirk or Gobowen, to accommodate the Wag Express mark 2

The Wag Express Mark one(Gerald of Wales) Premier service will continue for the time being to travel via Crewe. (Subsidy £1.7M this year).

Interestingly reports in Rail UK Forums, that sightings of W/S stock seen in Newport & Cardiff this week.


Bob

 

[4SRKT]

Does that mean the existing working will continue with the 'snatcher for the time being?

What paths will the new working operate? Will it still be a very under-utilised one out-and-back per day?

 

[merlodlliw]

Does that mean the existing working will continue with the 'snatcher for the time being?

What paths will the new working operate? Will it still be a very under-utilised one out-and-back per day?

Here is a concise version of the Ministers statement released today.

The new service announced by Mr Wyn Jones will see the service run Monday to Friday From May this year.It will depart Holyhead 0751 & arrive in Cardiff at 1208.The return journey will leave Cardiff at 1818 & arrive Holyhead at 2234, the train will stop at Wrexham in both directions.
The morning train exHolyhead/Bangor/Junction/Colwyn/Rhyl/Chester/Wrexham/Ruabon,Chirk/Gobowen/Shrewsbury/Newport/Cardiff.
The evening train from Cardiff will call at Newport/Abergavenny/Hereford/Shrewsbury/Gobowen/Ruabon/Wrexham/Chester/Rhyl/Colwyn/Junction/Bangor/Holyhead.
In order for the second Wag Express(my words) to call Wrexham in the morning I have told ATW to reroute the 0715 Holyhead to Birmingham via Crewe instead of Wrexham,it would not be possible for the 2nd Wag Express to call at Wrexham due to single tracking.
Mr Jones added the Network rail study will be completed by the end of April on the line between Saltney & Wrexham, and I would expect construction to start in 2012, I remain committed to pathing the original Wag Express(Gerald) via Wrexham rather than Crewe .

Wrexham County Council have made comments,Ill put up a few later.

 

[Gareth Marston]

No doubt southbound will carry local traffic along North Wales coast and Chester/Wrexham/Shrewsbury then be a ECS move.

Northbound it will load to Abergavenny then be quite. Theirs a market for 3/4 direct trains a day not the 8/9 we now have.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

A previous Transport Minister said that "we should not be carrying fresh air"
I agree, this nations cash should not be spent on "nice" trains for the minority while the rest of us stand!!!!!

 

[Greenback]

The truth is that very few trains carry nothing but fresh air!

That said, I am dubious about the second WAG Express, particularly the fact that it's two hours later than WAG1!

 

[Welshman]

The truth is that very few trains carry nothing but fresh air!

That said, I am dubious about the second WAG Express, particularly the fact that it's two hours later than WAG1!

I agree. Surely what is needed is a fast service in the opposite direction - ie outwards from Cardiff in the morning and return from Holyhead at teatime.

At least it's now been agreed that WAG2 will stop along the N Wales coast, instead of being Llandudno Junction -Chester non-stop, as originally proposed.

Do we know yet what stock will form WAG2?

 

[The Planner]

It is timed as a 175, but if a 67 suddenly pops up then it would keep time.

 

[AlexS]

Why exactly are these people allowed to waste money in such a blatant manner? The loco hauled stock and the food are lovely, but what an absolute joke otherwise. People from North Wales, apparently, have more a desire to travel to Liverpool than Cardiff, but no, apparently Welsh people only wish to travel within Wales, or so you'd be led to believe by the transport funding. Who wants to go from Holyhead to Cardiff anyway!?

 

[tbtc]

I agree. Surely what is needed is a fast service in the opposite direction - ie outwards from Cardiff in the morning and return from Holyhead at teatime

Why is that a priority? Why not a link from towns in North Wales to bigger cities/ job markets? Wrexham to Manchester? Bangor to Liverpool?

 

[fgwrich]

Here is a concise version of the Ministers statement released today.

The new service announced by Mr Wyn Jones will see the service run Monday to Friday From May this year.It will depart Holyhead 0751 & arrive in Cardiff at 1208.The return journey will leave Cardiff at 1818 & arrive Holyhead at 2234, the train will stop at Wrexham in both directions.
The morning train exHolyhead/Bangor/Junction/Colwyn/Rhyl/Chester/Wrexham/Ruabon,Chirk/Gobowen/Shrewsbury/Newport/Cardiff.
The evening train from Cardiff will call at Newport/Abergavenny/Hereford/Shrewsbury/Gobowen/Ruabon/Wrexham/Chester/Rhyl/Colwyn/Junction/Bangor/Holyhead.
In order for the second Wag Express(my words) to call Wrexham in the morning I have told ATW to reroute the 0715 Holyhead to Birmingham via Crewe instead of Wrexham,it would not be possible for the 2nd Wag Express to call at Wrexham due to single tracking.
Mr Jones added the Network rail study will be completed by the end of April on the line between Saltney & Wrexham, and I would expect construction to start in 2012, I remain committed to pathing the original Wag Express(Gerald) via Wrexham rather than Crewe .

Wrexham County Council have made comments,Ill put up a few later.

So it's calls at Shrewsbury/Newport/Cardiff in the morning, but the evening service calls at Cardiff/Newport/Abergavenny/Hereford/Shrewsbury on the way back up - So why does Hereford gain a stop in the evening, but not the morning?

 

[Greenback]

Why is that a priority? Why not a link from towns in North Wales to bigger cities/ job markets? Wrexham to Manchester? Bangor to Liverpool?

You know why! It's a political train, supposed to help unite North and South Wales...

 

[tbtc]

You know why! It's a political train, supposed to help unite North and South Wales...

Yeah. I was arguing with Welshman's idea that there was a need for a northbound morning service (and southbound return in the evening)

 

[Greenback]

I know, but if there is to be a second 'premium' train, it should allow those in the South to unite with those in the North as well! I see little point in a second service two hours or so behind the first.

 

[martinsh]

Interesting that the 0715 holyhead - Birmingham will be diverted via Crewe - should be just about at the right time for me to get to work in Stafford !!!

 

[Arriva158]

Interesting that the 0715 holyhead - Birmingham will be diverted via Crewe - should be just about at the right time for me to get to work in Stafford !!!

Would just take us all back to the times of the Holyhead - Birmingham via Crewe /Stafford behind a 37 but that means that the 0715 off Chester will run fast to Crewe and get stuck behind the Crewe - Shrewsbury 158 which leaves Crewe at 0727 to form the 0831 to Birmingham Intl... unless they're routing the 158 from Holyhead direct up the WCML to Stafford/Wolverhampton? Surely Not?

 

[connor7777]

Well any new service is always welcome.

Why did Welshpool get priority over Gowerton and Wrexham/Saltney Jctn

 

[merlodlliw]

I have just received the official document from WAG, this will be available on the WAG website.

175 May to December, 67 from December.



WRITTEN STATEMENT BY THE
WELSH ASSEMBLY GOVERNMENT


Title: Second Fast North-South Rail Link
Date: 9 March 2011
By: Ieuan Wyn Jones, Deputy First Minister and Minister for the Economy and Transport


In 2008 I funded the introduction of Y Gerallt Gymro express Holyhead to Cardiff service.

This flagship service is key to delivering our “One Wales” commitment to reduce journey times between North and South Wales. It has proven to be very popular and has strengthened economic links between the north and south of the country.

I have now decided to introduce a second express train service, from May 2011, Monday – Friday, initially using a Class 175 train. This service will compliment the existing Y Gerallt Gymro service and has competitive journey times considering the current infrastructure constraints. The train will depart from Holyhead at 07:51 and arrives in Cardiff at 12:08. The return journey will leave Cardiff at 18:18 and arrives in Holyhead at 22:34.

I am aware that, as we have been preparing these proposals, that some Members, and Council Leaders, have expressed concern to me that the service would not call at stations on the North Wales Coast, or at Wrexham.

I am now able to confirm that the train will be able to stop at Wrexham in both directions. The morning train will call at Holyhead, Bangor, Llandudno Junction, Colwyn Bay, Rhyl, Chester, Wrexham, Ruabon, Chirk, Gobowen, Shrewsbury, Newport and Cardiff. The evening train after departure from Cardiff will stop at Newport, Abergavenny, Hereford, Shrewsbury, Gobowen, Ruabon, Wrexham, Chester, Rhyl, Colwyn Bay, Llandudno Junction, Bangor and Holyhead. This is the optimum journey pattern that is achievable within the overall target of journey times between Holyhead and Cardiff, via Wrexham, of some 4 hours and 17 minutes.

In order for the second express service to be able to call at Wrexham General Station in the morning I have asked Arriva Trains Wales to reroute the 07:15 Holyhead – Birmingham International service via Crewe instead of Wrexham. It would otherwise not be possible for the second express service to call at Wrexham due to the infrastructure constraints of the single track between Wrexham and Chester. This means that the 07:15 Holyhead – Birmingham International service can no longer call at Ruabon, Chirk and Gobowen. Therefore the new express service will call at these stations in order to avoid what would otherwise be a two hour gap in the mornings. Passengers for Birmingham joining from these stations will be able to complete their journey by changing and connecting into the 07:15 Holyhead – Birmingham service at Shrewsbury.

The Class 175 service will have an enhanced at seat trolley service including some hot food.

From the timetable changes in December 2011, the Class 175 train will be replaced by a Class 67 locomotive with carriages similar to those used on Y Gerallt Gymro. This service will be able to have a first class carriage and dining facilities similar to those currently available on Y Gerallt Gymro. I am funding a substantial refurbishment before these carriages are brought into service.

I remain committed to pathing the original Y Gerallt Gymro service via Wrexham rather than Crewe. The study I am funding Network Rail to undertake, to improve the railway infrastructure between Holyhead and Cardiff, will be completed by the end of April. It will include consideration of options for capacity enhancements on the line between Chester and Wrexham with the objective of both a step change reduction in journey times for all services and of routing the express return service via Wrexham. I expect construction work to commence next year.

As this term of Government ends, I believe that I have taken firm steps to improve transport provision between North and South Wales. This is important for the economy of our country and improving journey times for passengers.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Would just take us all back to the times of the Holyhead - Birmingham via Crewe /Stafford behind a 37 but that means that the 0715 off Chester will run fast to Crewe and get stuck behind the Crewe - Shrewsbury 158 which leaves Crewe at 0727 to form the 0831 to Birmingham Intl... unless they're routing the 158 from Holyhead direct up the WCML to Stafford/Wolverhampton? Surely Not?

No the official statement says, it will run via Shrewsbury,see above.

Bob

 

[swt_passenger]

.

Do we know yet what stock will form WAG2?

We do now...

A 175 initially.

67/LHCS from December TT, as above.

Presumably no LHCS available... :roll:

 

[cle]

The WAG should fund, or at least part-fund the Halton Curve?

Even though it's in England, it will bring far more benefit to North Wales than these showy trains to Cardiff. There could be a stopping train to Chester, and then a faster one along the coast to either Llanduds or Bangor/Holyhead - both stopping at LS Parkway too.

These would bring a lot more to the folk of North Wales and Liverpool - access to holiday homes and caravans, public transport to Liverpool airport, new jobs markets, better Chester - Liverpool/Runcorn/airport connectivity. And not least of all, a Liverpool - Wrexham service could be possible too, I imagine a lot of suppressed demand there.

And all this for redoubling a curve with some signalling! It could coincide with some of the electrification and use some displaced DMUs.

 

[sprinterguy]

Hmmm. Complete and utter speculation from me here, but I’d consider it likely that if the new train is to be a 67+LHCS from the end of the year, then the original Gerald will become 67+LHCS as well? Does anybody else view it as likely that Chiltern may have their own refurbed loco hauled sets from December, and as such the ex-W&S trains currently used by them will be able to be handed over to ATW?

Absolute madness anyway, running a second “Gerald” two hours behind the first one. It would make much more sense to use the 175 the WAG are funding for this on extra services to where many people actually want to go: Manchester, or Liverpool. Or at the very least, once both loco hauled trains are up and running one service should really run in the opposite direction to the other, and operate a middle of the day fill-in turn to somewhere useful to earn their keep and actually boost capacity where it is needed. But that would be far too sensible and beneficial to passengers….

 

[4SRKT]

If WAG Train mk II is to be a 175 for the first 6 months, then there is already a WAG Train mk II running between Cardiff and Holyhead every 2 hours.

 

[merlodlliw]

The WAG should fund, or at least part-fund the Halton Curve?

Even though it's in England, it will bring far more benefit to North Wales than these showy trains to Cardiff. There could be a stopping train to Chester, and then a faster one along the coast to either Llanduds or Bangor/Holyhead - both stopping at LS Parkway too.

These would bring a lot more to the folk of North Wales and Liverpool - access to holiday homes and caravans, public transport to Liverpool airport, new jobs markets, better Chester - Liverpool/Runcorn/airport connectivity. And not least of all, a Liverpool - Wrexham service could be possible too, I imagine a lot of suppressed demand there.

And all this for redoubling a curve with some signalling! It could coincide with some of the electrification and use some displaced DMUs.

A lot of your thinking is correct, but with a devolved Govt and a Minister obsessed everything must go to Cardiff, the Halton curve wont get funds from Cardiff, how the Wales & Borders franchise will look in eight years is anybody's guess, from May we will have 3 morning trains on the up line from Wrexham all going to Cardiff one after the other ,a direct Birmingham will be lost.

Gerald Wag Express mark one, is only funded to Dec 2011, a new Minister from May, could decide £1.7M is too much subsidy & scrap it, Wag Ex mark 2 is funded for 7 years at £3.5M plus the hidden extras , so will remain as will Wagair at £1.6M a year until its contract expires.

Interesting times, especially the Ministers comments about refurbishment of
loco hauled stock for Wag Ex mark 2, in my opinion a new coat of paint,& not a word about the DVT push/pulled by the 67.
I am sure a 67 would have started in May, but too sensitive after W/S demise, hence 67 training of ATW staff delayed, so will a 175 be borrowed in with first class from May? for a few months, hot food anybody.

Bob

 

[50010 Monarch]

If WAG Train mk II is to be a 175 for the first 6 months, then there is already a WAG Train mk II running between Cardiff and Holyhead every 2 hours.

That's exactly what I thought. The only difference as far as I can see is that WAG 2 doesn't stop as much as the other Holyhead - Cardiff's.

 

[tbtc]

If WAG Train mk II is to be a 175 for the first 6 months, then there is already a WAG Train mk II running between Cardiff and Holyhead every 2 hours.

Yup. A 175 with a trolley is getting a hell of a write up
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I know, but if there is to be a second 'premium' train, it should allow those in the South to unite with those in the North as well! I see little point in a second service two hours or so behind the first.

But why does there need to be a second "premium" train? The whole concept seems crazy. Maybe understandable a few years ago when there was only one train a day from Holyhead to Cardiff, but with a train every couple of hours surely any demand is being met?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

By: Ieuan Wyn Jones, Deputy First Minister and Minister for the Economy and Transport


In 2008 I funded the introduction of Y Gerallt Gymro express Holyhead to Cardiff service.

This flagship service is key to delivering our “One Wales” commitment to reduce journey times between North and South Wales. It has proven to be very popular and has strengthened economic links between the north and south of the country

Genuine question here, can anyone give an example of strengthened private sector economic links between the north and south of Wales as a result of this train?

I'm dubious about private sector investment in Hull/ Sunderland (etc) as a direct result of a direct London train, which is why I'm asking.

 

[fairlie]

What about the rest of Wales? Travel to constituencies other than those of Mr Ieuan Wyn Jones, for example? We don't need more posh trains for politicians - we need to be able to get around the rest of Wales efficiently and affordably.

 

[merlodlliw]

That's exactly what I thought. The only difference as far as I can see is that WAG 2 doesn't stop as much as the other Holyhead - Cardiff's.

It is of course a total farce & a knee jerk reaction, suppose the only benefit is it will be a 175 unlike the other junk that ATW ply the line with such as 150s & 153s with a bolt on 158 if you are lucky.



On the other hand the Wag Expresses are just Political toys, funded without any public consultation what so ever, just to get WAG staff & cronies to Cardiff,with Mark 2, in Cardiff in time for lunch and a short meeting, then back on Gerald mark 1 at 1615 for the journey to Junction while having dinner.

Oh yes,almost forgot we are paying for this farce.


Bob

 

[cymro inside]

ok here goes! fact no 1- Bangor is the most important station revenue wise in North Wales,Cardiff is in the top 10 of destinations from Bangor.there is nothing wrong in serving a growing market.double figure percent growth from the coast to the South in the last few years and this is likely to continue.
given that there are no spare dmus anywhere, even if the wag were standard class only how would you provide the stock?
It is going to be difficult to justify a through service to Liverpool from the coast now that merseyrail run every 15 mins all day.talk of holiday camps and holiday homes is great for 4 months of the year,the north-south services are well used all year round.(it isnt a bad service from liverpool with good connections at Chester twice hourly)sometimes i wonder if people think that Cardiff trains are the only service on the coast!
we dont want to spend 5 hours on a class 158 unit stopping at every lampost to cardiff.i for one will welcome this extra service and look forward to wag 3 at some stage (0640 cardiff to holyhead and 1600 holyhead to cardiff would be good(1600 1700 and 1800 all full ex bangor most days)

 

[Gareth Marston]

Well any new service is always welcome.

Why did Welshpool get priority over Gowerton and Wrexham/Saltney Jctn

The scheme got piggy backed on NR raising track levels at Dyfi Jnc to get tracks out of regular flood water, also its a shed cheaper than the other schemes you mention WAG only had to cough up 50%.

 

[TDK]

It is timed as a 175, but if a 67 suddenly pops up then it would keep time.

70mph up until Craven Arms - I doubt it

Speeds in compaison 175 vs 67

Wrexham to Shrewsbury 175 70mph - 67 60mph
Shrewsbury ro Craven Arms 175 up to 90mph - 67 up to 70mph

How can a 67 keep time and with the slam doors at stations at least another 1m dwell