The HST Era continues!

[starrymarkb]

Exactly the same as HST's then, which is his point.

Not at all. You won't find any First Gen 737s that have been upgraded to 737NG spec. HSTs would be an upgrade to existing. A better analogy to the HSTs would be the DC8s that were fitted with CFM56s in the late 70s early 80s. But that was mostly for cargo carriers rather then front line passenger. For the 737 the rail analogy would be Tornado. New build by taking an old design and improving on it.

 

[455driver]

Tongue in cheek,

So Mark you are saying we should build a fleet of A1s then .

Agree with your analogy though.

 

[Darandio]

Not at all. You won't find any First Gen 737s that have been upgraded to 737NG spec. HSTs would be an upgrade to existing. A better analogy to the HSTs would be the DC8s that were fitted with CFM56s in the late 70s early 80s. But that was mostly for cargo carriers rather then front line passenger. For the 737 the rail analogy would be Tornado. New build by taking an old design and improving on it.

Straight over my head then, I'll take your word for it.

But, are there not privately owned first gen 737's that have been given a complete makeover in a similar fashion in the sense that it is possible that only the original shell remains? I am not sure what this constitutes though for parts, designations etc. Best to shut up really.

 

[caliwag]

I go out of my way to travel on HSTs...York to Truro being the obvious "going out of one's way", but I do just wonder when the press and the EU start to panic about the non-captive effluent that is spayed on track workers, the lineside and all things probably within a 30ft radius of a passing sewage works at 125mph.
OK great for lineside weeds and ecology but it surely must be sorted before we are promised such luxury upto 2040.

 

[Bittern]

Dude you don't need to retype the title of the thread as the title of your post.

 

[455driver]

And you dont need to write a post that adds nothing to the thread .

Apart from the doors and toilets there isnt much "wrong" with the mark 3 coaches so long may they continue in front line service!

 

[caliwag]

HaHa...I'm one of those very careful people who doesn't want to lose my valuable post in the ether...I just follow the screen, but thanks anyway.
Anyway, why does it ask the bl++dy question in the first place? No other forum I know does that...so "Captive Tanks"...good name for a band...?

 

[Bittern]

And you dont need to write a post that adds nothing to the thread .

I asked him/her a question, is all.

 

[Daimler]

Although it;s good for the HST fans, public perception of old trains may lead to a fall in the numbers of rail travellers, particularly as they are seen as noisy, dirty and envirnmentally unfriendly.

I'm not entirely sure about this - the FGW HSTs are, from experience of people I've travelled with (not enthusiasts in any way, I hasten to add), perceived as being 'posh', 'modern' trains. The only things that really give their age away are the doors, and they can be sorted out if wished.

 

[87031]

i know what I'd rather travel into cornwall on after getting off the useual 159 and thats a voyager,
defently not a HST

your talking nonsense

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . .
The 'Highland Chieftan' also had a well used restaurant car through the Highlands until the delightful National Express spoiled that aswell.

I'm veering off-topic here, but I have to add just how much I agree.
Its impossible to comprehend - 400 passengers captive for 8 hours (okay - not all do the whole journey, but much of this still applies), and the kitchen isn't equipped with a chef and ingedients to prepare table meals. Just think how many could be sold . . . maybe 80-120 full meals with waiter service, and 100-200 hot snacks over the counter.

Its not as if people don't eat for 8 hours or really are happy eating snack food for 8 hours (plus connection time at either end)! And the "up" Chieftan leaves before 8am - so you'd think people would be wanting "proper" breakfasts and willing to pay for them. Too bad. Toast or a bacon-ish offering is available, but folks used to the cheapest self-service hotels expect more choice!

Its a business opportunity to provide a service to a captive market on the Inverness & Aberdeen EC services which could easily be profitable, but . . . .

I'd run the business myself if they'd let me - and without silly access charges.

 

[Greenback]

I'm not entirely sure about this - the FGW HSTs are, from experience of people I've travelled with (not enthusiasts in any way, I hasten to add), perceived as being 'posh', 'modern' trains. The only things that really give their age away are the doors, and they can be sorted out if wished.

I meant they are noisy and dirty in the station, pumping fumes into the atmosphere, they are generally clean on the inside!

All I am saying, in response to the unbounded approval from the HST enthusiasts who can't see past their own feelings, is that having HST's in service for possibly another 20 years or more is not necessarily going to be welcomed by customers and other stakeholders.

 

[cyclebytrain]

Straight over my head then, I'll take your word for it.

But, are there not privately owned first gen 737's that have been given a complete makeover in a similar fashion in the sense that it is possible that only the original shell remains? I am not sure what this constitutes though for parts, designations etc. Best to shut up really.

In a word, no. 737 is a family of different aircraft that have some common design elements and parts. A good analogy is with the networker family. A 465 and a 165 are both networkers but you can't refurbish one into another.

 

[Donny Dave]

I'm veering off-topic here, but I have to add just how much I agree.
Its impossible to comprehend - 400 passengers captive for 8 hours (okay - not all do the whole journey, but much of this still applies), and the kitchen isn't equipped with a chef and ingedients to prepare table meals. Just think how many could be sold . . . maybe 80-120 full meals with waiter service, and 100-200 hot snacks over the counter.

Its not as if people don't eat for 8 hours or really are happy eating snack food for 8 hours (plus connection time at either end)! And the "up" Chieftan leaves before 8am - so you'd think people would be wanting "proper" breakfasts and willing to pay for them. Too bad. Toast or a bacon-ish offering is available, but folks used to the cheapest self-service hotels expect more choice!

Its a business opportunity to provide a service to a captive market on the Inverness & Aberdeen EC services which could easily be profitable, but . . . .

I'd run the business myself if they'd let me - and without silly access charges.

As I have done the Highland Chieftain end to end in both directions, then yes, I do agree a bit more can be done catering wise. But in reality, the train serves 2 markets. London - Newcastle/Edinburgh and Newcastle/Edinburgh - Inverness. While a number of people do take the service end to end, the number isn't that high. Realistically, this means the level of catering offered is just about right.

 

[Ricardo]

Not at all. You won't find any First Gen 737s that have been upgraded to 737NG spec. HSTs would be an upgrade to existing. A better analogy to the HSTs would be the DC8s that were fitted with CFM56s in the late 70s early 80s. But that was mostly for cargo carriers rather then front line passenger. For the 737 the rail analogy would be Tornado. New build by taking an old design and improving on it.

Dont wish to go OT here, just want to clarify my point:

Although a 60s type 737 and a current 737 look pretty much the same, their engines, internals, pretty much everything about them apart from the basic airframe is different and in the modern case, is up to date and competetive with modern designs. Y

our average punter on the 2010-buuilt 737 would never be able to tell (and would never really care) that they were flying on something that outwardly looks the same as a 1960s plane.

(Sure, to the best of my knowledge nobody has updated an early 737 to the latest standard, but all of the new components and parts COULD be stuffed inside an old 737 frame if someone wanted.)

This is similar to a modernised HST- today's HST carriages power cars are full of up-to-date equpment and parts, in an old bodyshell. Most passengers cant tell from looking at the bodyshell that they are travelling on something of late 70s vintage, so long as the interior is up to modern standards.

I dont think keeping HSTs in use for another 10-15 years is likely to put people off travelling on them, so long as they are updated to the latest standard and kept clean and reliable. Most passengers simply wont perceive them to be old.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

As I have done the Highland Chieftain end to end in both directions, then yes, I do agree a bit more can be done catering wise. But in reality, the train serves 2 markets. London - Newcastle/Edinburgh and Newcastle/Edinburgh - Inverness. While a number of people do take the service end to end, the number isn't that high. Realistically, this means the level of catering offered is just about right.

I can't agree with you (and maybe this isn't off-topic, because the HST's are easily capable of operating a kitchen and restaurant).
The Edinburgh-Inverness journey is still three and a half hours, (plus passengers' connection times) and the Chieftan travels during key mealtimes:-
Southbound between 7:50 and 11:20 (aka breakfast time)
Northbound between 16:30 and 20:00 (aka evening mealtime).
Even the London-Newcastle element you mention used to sustain two sittings in the restaurant car until a few years ago, because the evening services had enough pax willing and able to eat a table meal to justify the 2 seatings.
My point is, the demand is there.
The supply is not there.
Its would be a profitable service. The numbers add up profitably, if (and only if), the service is confined to the Inverness and Aberdeen HST services , and if the service is not hampered by disproportionate access charges (at stations and on-board), and can be staffed by dedicated catering personnel with rotas and changeovers that do not require lodgings.

 

[Donny Dave]

If we was talking about 20-30 years ago, hell, even as little as 10 years ago, when society was a lot more rigid, I would agree with you. People did expect to be able to get a meal served if they wanted.

(Un)Fortunately, times have changed, and with a more mobile and active society plus the reduced journey times, people when planning long trips, such as travelling on the full length of the Highland Chieftain, now plan around it, and take supplies with them. I did exactly the same thing in May when travelling to/from Perth with my sister and brother in law. We knew we had an hour in Edinburgh between trains heading north, so we planned around that. Coming back South, we was on the Highland Chieftain between Perth and York, and were able to get hot sandwiches on board, plus the trolley went past us 7 times between those stations, so we was able to get drinks when we wanted.

With us also having a 30 minute change at York, we was able to plan around that. While I don't claim I speak for everyone, I do see quite a few people on long distance journeys who do bring supplies, and only "top them off" from trolleys and buffets.

 

[Metroland]

I'd just like to add I've also done the Highland Cheiftain full journey length, if you haven't done it, you haven't lived

 

[DaveNewcastle]

If we was talking about 20-30 years ago, hell, even as little as 10 years ago, when society was a lot more rigid, I would agree with you. People did expect to be able to get a meal served if they wanted.

. . . . . .

While I don't claim I speak for everyone, I do see quite a few people on long distance journeys who do bring supplies, and only "top them off" from trolleys and buffets.

Okay. Different passengers deal with long rail journeys in different ways. And, Okay. Times have changed and market forces have stepped in and we provide passengers with easy access to take-away snack foods at (or near) stations) which many people are content with.
I conceed all that.

In my experience, however, these specific services (KGX-INV & KGX-ADB) do not carry "average" passengers. I have often encountered a demand (in 1st and Std class) for better offerings, and from a wide range of social and demographic groups, but largely (and this is the point), willing and able to pay for better offerings. And I've often also encountered a willingness of the crew to provide more than they were equipped or instructed to provide.

Anyway, I said in my last post that I believe the figures stack up to the extent that it would be profitable. I invite you to help me try it - if you're right, it will be my loss. Not yours!

 

[yorkie]

Well I don't perticualy like having to stand from Exeter To Penzance thank you very much

Ok, what Voyager configuration would you suggest in place of a 2+8 HST, that provides at least as many seats? I look forward to your answer

HSTs have beem ruined by there new engines the rides terrible you can't ever get a seat,plus I prefer Crosscountry to FGW

So what happens if a XC HST turns up, followed by a FGW 158? Would you switch your preference to the HST? Is this about the quality of the HST as a train or just your preference of operator?

what sort of loading do HSTs get between Edinburgh-Inverness & Edinburgh-Aberdeen?

Very good loadings. I think on the Aberdeens people either choose HSTs over 170s because of the type of train, or maybe because they know it will have more seats, as they are well loaded north of Edinburgh and many of those people are doing journeys wholly north of Edinburgh. I was surprised.

Although it;s good for the HST fans, public perception of old trains may lead to a fall in the numbers of rail travellers, particularly as they are seen as noisy, dirty and envirnmentally unfriendly.

I don't think so. I've never seen a bad reaction from a passenger when a refurbished XC train rolls into the platform instead of a tatty but newer Voyager, and they find a very nice interior with more seats and a more open, wider layout. In fact, if anything the opposite has been the case. In my experience of travelling on Voyagers and HSTs, I can honestly say your theory isn't true at all, and that's from someone who would personally prefer IC70 seats over the refurb. I have to admit, passengers like the XC refurb, and they look a lot newer inside than Voyagers do.

so does that mean Sussex will be keeping its 319's as well? I like the 319's

Nothing wrong with 319s at all as trains, but the interior is dire. If they refurbished the interior to be like Desiros/Electrostars, you'd have a winner. No reason why that cannot be done if they are given a decent refurbishment.

 

[Donny Dave]

Anyway, I said in my last post that I believe the figures stack up to the extent that it would be profitable. I invite you to help me try it - if you're right, it will be my loss. Not yours!

If you think the figures add up, and you can run it, then I'll be delighted to help.

I'm in need of work anyway

 

[Kneedown]

even though it was only a 45/1 or 47/4 and took longer.

What do you mean "only" a 45/1? They were beasts!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Exactly. The latest Railway Magazine says that Great Western electrification could be put on hold, but that Midland Mainline electrification is suddenly going to shoot up the agenda. Why? Because the MML would be simpler and cheaper to electrify than the Great Western, which will involve multiple routes (including divisionary ones) and would still see a lot of diesel running under the wires. Benefit of MML is believed to be that it can still get the people, equipment, etc, up and running, then in a few years time after it's done it can be moved on to the GW. The aim still seems to be to get back to a rolling scheme of electrification, but to change the priorities.

It's the same with IEP. It was starting to get so complex, with units being built for various types of routes, that the cost to benefits ratio was reducing all the time. So what could happen is that IEP goes ahead, but not as a one-size-fits-all type train. The HST fleet was built in batches, route by route, but to a fairly standard design. So what if we had prototype IEP on the ECML; Batch one on electrified MML; batch two on ECML; batch three on electrified GW (Bristol/Swansea)... The HST fleet was built over nearly a decade, and there is no reason that IEP could not be likewise.

I think we ought to make you Transport Secretary, that all makes perfect sense (which would probably rule you out for the position!)
I've always said that the MML should be the first priority for any electrification, and not just because i work on it and it's historically been the "Cinderella railway". The GWML is already a highspeed railway in many places (by UK standards anyway!) and a good deal flatter than the MML, which is a lot slower and hillier. It's a no brainer really that the best performance, environmental and financial benefits will be delivered by wiring up the MML first. In fact i believe the last study showed that it would be more expensive NOT to wire up the MML.

 

[Failed Unit]

I can't agree with you (and maybe this isn't off-topic, because the HST's are easily capable of operating a kitchen and restaurant).
The Edinburgh-Inverness journey is still three and a half hours, (plus passengers' connection times) and the Chieftan travels during key mealtimes:-
Southbound between 7:50 and 11:20 (aka breakfast time)
Northbound between 16:30 and 20:00 (aka evening mealtime).
Even the London-Newcastle element you mention used to sustain two sittings in the restaurant car until a few years ago, because the evening services had enough pax willing and able to eat a table meal to justify the 2 seatings.
My point is, the demand is there.
The supply is not there.
Its would be a profitable service. The numbers add up profitably, if (and only if), the service is confined to the Inverness and Aberdeen HST services , and if the service is not hampered by disproportionate access charges (at stations and on-board), and can be staffed by dedicated catering personnel with rotas and changeovers that do not require lodgings.

You have a halfway house at the moment, going South you can still get the breakfast served at your seat in first class and collected on a try in standard. I don't see the issue with breakfast. Likewise lunch you can have fairly good meals served at your seat in first. Standard is a bit more of an issue, you can have bangers and mash or the burger for example but you need to stand in the buffet for 30 minutes! Not really going to encourage people to do it. I guess you can return to your seat and go back in say 20 minutes time to collect but although they offer the at seat food to standard passengers is certainly isn't as pleasent with the issues of collection.

Dinner is certainly a sad loss on the northbound service. I used to actually make this as part of my journey and factor in the cost. I would be interested to know how much is been saved not offering dinner considering the chef is on board anyway!

 

[sprinterguy]

One of the primary benefits of Intercity train travel for me is that you CAN enjoy a good quality, full meal whilst travelling, as well as an alcoholic tipple or two if you so desire, instead of probably having no more than a dry sandwich from a service station to look forward to during a long drive up the M6 or something similar.

On train catering removes the need to track down a suitable pub or restaurant where you can be fed and watered at your destination, which is useful if you are attending an all day meeting or conference, or if you are sightseeing it gives you more time to explore the area.

If I am on a train journey of 2 hours or more then I like to have the opportunity to enjoy a full meal whilst on board, which is why when travelling to and from London to the West Midlands then providing my journey is not time critical I will choose Wrexham and Shropshire over Virgin Trains, as despite the longer journey time on W&S, Wrexham and Shropshire offer a much better standard of meal service and better quality food (their full Welsh breakfast is FANTASTIC!) than do Virgin, and better customer service.

So I would say that there is DEFINITELY a market for on-train catering on services such as London to Aberdeen or Inverness.

 

[Failed Unit]

If I am on a train journey of 2 hours or more then I like to have the opportunity to enjoy a full meal whilst on board, which is why when travelling to and from London to the West Midlands then providing my journey is not time critical I will choose Wrexham and Shropshire over Virgin Trains, as despite the longer journey time on W&S, Wrexham and Shropshire offer a much better standard of meal service and better quality food (their full Welsh breakfast is FANTASTIC!) than do Virgin, and better customer service.

So I would say that there is DEFINITELY a market for on-train catering on services such as London to Aberdeen or Inverness.

I wonder how much revenue Virgin are losing on thier catering now they have decided to go for the no cards policy? I don't use them at all now and stock up at the station. Not just because the don't accept cards but on many services recently they don't accept cash as they have no change for £10 notes :roll:

On the age of the train making a difference to what people prefer, it is hard to say. People on Aberdeen / Inverness - Edinburgh prefer the HST's. Don't know on the Manchester - Sheffeild route if the 158 or 185's is preffered by the majority. I have a feeling that people may think the 158 is the new train after the refurbishment. But in most cases people will just take the first train that comes along. I can't see a passenger arriving at Manchester at 1630 waiting for the next TPE service to Sheffield (unless the 1616 is late of course)

 

[scotsman]

I wonder how much revenue Virgin are losing on thier catering now they have decided to go for the no cards policy? I don't use them at all now and stock up at the station. Not just because the don't accept cards but on many services recently they don't accept cash as they have no change for £10 notes :roll:

It's a stupid and contradictory policy. The idea behind it is that it reduces the risk of fraud, as there's no way to check if there are funds in the card's account before taking the payment. (Despite that ticket machines onboard work the same way, and the majority of payments go through without checking the funds anyway)

 

[Techniquest]

I'd just like to add I've also done the Highland Cheiftain full journey length, if you haven't done it, you haven't lived

I should add I've done the full journey from Kings Cross to Inverness and back the next morning too. It is most definitely an experience, the far superior way to traverse the Highland Main Line to doing so on a 170 (I've done that too, I'll not take a 170 up there again). Highly recommended if you've not already done it.

As for the news that the IEP might be cancelled, and? This has been the case for ages now, hardly news! I'd be mightily shocked if it actually went ahead any time soon. Same for the GW electrification scheme.

People preferring to travel on a Voyager over an HST? Strange tastes there, I've yet to find the logic in Templecombe's posts on this thread.

 

[Greenback]

I don't think so. I've never seen a bad reaction from a passenger when a refurbished XC train rolls into the platform instead of a tatty but newer Voyager, and they find a very nice interior with more seats and a more open, wider layout. In fact, if anything the opposite has been the case. In my experience of travelling on Voyagers and HSTs, I can honestly say your theory isn't true at all, and that's from someone who would personally prefer IC70 seats over the refurb. I have to admit, passengers like the XC refurb, and they look a lot newer inside than Voyagers do.

OK allowing for the fact that the majority of passengers seem to prefer the HST's to the (Current) alternatives, what about those who might travel by rail only occasionally, or who might be tempted out of their cars to try new trains. Regardless of how modern they look, or how new the itnernal fittings and engines are, how will these sorts of people react when they read that their trains will be inservice until they are 50+ years old? If Mr X is planning a trip all he will know is that his car is 3 years old (for example), but the train is much, much older!

You have a halfway house at the moment, going South you can still get the breakfast served at your seat in first class and collected on a try in standard. I don't see the issue with breakfast. Likewise lunch you can have fairly good meals served at your seat in first. Standard is a bit more of an issue, you can have bangers and mash or the burger for example but you need to stand in the buffet for 30 minutes! Not really going to encourage people to do it. I guess you can return to your seat and go back in say 20 minutes time to collect but although they offer the at seat food to standard passengers is certainly isn't as pleasent with the issues of collection.

Dinner is certainly a sad loss on the northbound service. I used to actually make this as part of my journey and factor in the cost. I would be interested to know how much is been saved not offering dinner considering the chef is on board anyway!

I could never understand why European railways could provide a turn up and go service on trains, whereas we have always been lumbered with the very old fashioned concept of sittings (except on cruise ships!). Also, the range of food and drink available was so much wider in Europe, you could have a light meal, a snack, or just a few drinks if you wanted, rather than a huge gastonomic expereince.

Why isn't a more flexible offering available on routes like the Chieftain? The buffet car could be declassified and used like a high street cafe, while any FC passengers could take meals at their seats.

 

[Failed Unit]

OK allowing for the fact that the majority of passengers seem to prefer the HST's to the (Current) alternatives, what about those who might travel by rail only occasionally, or who might be tempted out of their cars to try new trains. Regardless of how modern they look, or how new the itnernal fittings and engines are, how will these sorts of people react when they read that their trains will be inservice until they are 50+ years old? If Mr X is planning a trip all he will know is that his car is 3 years old (for example), but the train is much, much older!

I may not be best placed to comment, but I honestly don't think the age matters as long as the interior is kept upto date. Look at the 30 year old HST on the ECML, it has new seats, wi-fi and a decent mobile phone signal. The interior is much better than the XC Voyager that also runs on much of the route.

People I travel with for work will avoid the Voyager for the following reasons.
1. It stinks (toilet trouble)
2. They can't use their mobile phones
3. They can't work (less tables and no wi-fi 3g won't work on the Voyagers)
4. The prefer the coaches.

Age is never mentioned as a factor. I personally don't care as long as they keep the interiors upto date. The trains are air-conditioned just like the car.

Exactly what advantage does a Voyager or Pendo have over a HST or Mk4? At the end of the day they are tools to get you from A-B, price is more likely to put you off then the age of the train. In fact if you are sat the whole journey on a pendo looking at piece of plastic you may not be in a hurry to use it again!

 

[daccer]

The IEP has been dead man walking for awhile - the recession and change of govt just provided the opportunity to let it die properly. For me with the lack of money that is going to be around the HST can show the way in life-extension. I think the major issues are not with long distance stock but with the rural areas were the hope for cascades from electrification seem to be receding rapidly. How you do something with Pacers and the early Sprinters to get them through the next decade is going to need some careful thinking.