The HST Era continues!

[sprinterguy]

FFS again what has it got to do with the HST that you can't get a seat, it is one of 2 problems. 1 The HST is not long enough an more coaches or 2. The service is not frequent enough. Would you have got a seat if the same train was operated by 159 or a 4 Car Voyager that probably has half the seats of the HST? Are Voyagers tardis?

I think Templecombe would find that if all Crosscountry AND FGW services were formed of Voyagers (or perhaps if FGW had ordered a squadron fleet of 5 car Adelantes) that you wouldn't even be able to BOARD the services currently operated by a packed HST, let alone get a seat!

I'm with Peter Mugridge on this one that it says something about the popularity (or lack thereof) of the Voyagers that you can get a seat on a 4/5 carriage Voyager but not on an 8 carriage HST on the same route!

Fitting HSTs with MTUs has IMPROVED them from an operational point of view, increasing reliability and reducing maintenance costs and fuel consumption, which is what matters. And as far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter what type of engine is powering the thing, the HST is and always has been a fantastic answer to long distance Intercity services off the electrified network, probably the best Intercity train this country has and will ever see!

Voyagers are a poor attempt at a long distance Intercity train that were ill thought out from their inception: The notion of the "Operation Princess" timetable eating up more paths on already heavily used routes in order to allow shorter trains that would never allow for growth with fewer seats (despite them being cramped with not enough legroom) and far less luggage space to operate.

It's also funny to remember that when the HSTs were introduced before the APT Project sunk that the HSTs were only meant to have a lifespan of 15 years, by which time they would be "life expired" and be replaced by a shiny APT fleet

 

[Failed Unit]

last time I checked they where trains,yeah more then likely I would have

Interesting so tell me, considering a 3 car 159 has about 210 seats, a 4 car Voyager has slightly less than 200 and an 8 car HST has about 400. (Before a pendant picks me up on this the exact numbers are not relavent to my point). I would be interesting to know how you are more likely to get a seat on a trian with half as many seat compared to the one you have already stated yourself is full and standing. If you have got 400 people on a HST, I would hate to try and fit them all in a Voyager if it isn't a tardis

 

[Greenback]

There's nothing WRONG with HST's, it's just that the routes they are on could do with some more modern stock. I agree with Failed Unit that they are better than Pendolino's!

 

[sprinterguy]

If the life extension modifications that are to be trialled on the GC Powercars are successful, and if following Chiltern's upgrade of the loco hauled mark 3s it's taking on in 2012 the entire HST mk 3 fleet was similarly upgraded, with sliding plug doors and all the other bits and bobs that are being done, then I can see no reason, even from a passenger comfort and quality point of view, why the HSTs would not be fit to continue in service until 2020 or beyond.

 

[gordonthemoron]

what sort of loading do HSTs get between Edinburgh-Inverness & Edinburgh-Aberdeen?

 

[TMLB UK]

I used to sigh a little when i saw an HST pulling up in Newcastle to take me to london, i used to get free first class travel and it was never as nice as the 225's interior (Mallard upgrade i believe)

To be honest though the HST's are just the same now as the 225's interior wise.

And with the planned upgrades if you missed the front of the train coming in you wouldnt know the difference really. (ok you would but you know what im getting at)

 

[Failed Unit]

what sort of loading do HSTs get between Edinburgh-Inverness & Edinburgh-Aberdeen?

It depends to be honest, to average it out I would say they are half full from experience. However during the school holidays (both English and Scottish) I have known both routes be full. Although very few people do the whole journey Dundee - Newcastle has a reasonable flow on its own.

I was on the 0952 Aberdeen - London service last Friday joining at Dundee, standard was full throughout the entire journey. As many people left at Edinburgh as joined. However a reasonable number joined at Dundee and as the train headed towards Edinburgh, who knows some of them may just have been day trippers. I don't think a 170 could have replaced the service!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

what sort of loading do HSTs get between Edinburgh-Inverness & Edinburgh-Aberdeen?

The one a day Edinburgh-Inverness HST can be very busy. Its varaible, but can regularly be well over 80% (std and first class).

 

[mrcheek]

i know what I'd rather travel into cornwall on after getting off the useual 159 and thats a voyager,
defently not a HST

youre in a minority
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

HSTs have beem ruined by there new engines the rides terrible you can't ever get a seat,plus I prefer Crosscountry to FGW

erm, HSTs have WAY more seats than Voyagers

 

[Bittern]

what sort of loading do HSTs get between Edinburgh-Inverness & Edinburgh-Aberdeen?

I've observed HSTs in Edinburgh (the only place I see them now as XC seem to have taken them off the 09:00 Glasgow - Penzance), and they've been reasonably full.

And I've been reasonably jealous!

 

[krus_aragon]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...ll-plans-to-replace-Intercity-125-trains.html

First paragraph: replacement plans have been mothballed.
Second paragraph: project will be considered in the spending review.

Looks like the Telegraph are kicking up a lot of fuss over something that hasn't been decided yet.

 

[Greenback]

It could mean that the replacement trains (the IEP) have been mothballed, and the electrification project as a whole will be reviewed (and then cancelled).

 

[Donny Dave]

Like I said in my first post in this topic. The government is looking at everything to see what gives best value for money overall.

It could be that best value for money is a few infill electrification schemes, plus the associated new EMUs, and rebuild HSTs for another 20 years use, and start wide spread electrification in 10 years time.

Or it could be a case of electrify a few lines (and certain infill schemes) now and order suitable stock at the same time, and get ready to ditch HSTs for good in 10 years time.

We won't know until the government report is out in October.

 

[Ivo]

Absolutely fantastic news!

Plans to replace Britain's ageing fleet of Intercity 125 trains have been mothballed by the Government.
Philip Hammond, the Transport Secretary, said the future of the £7.5bn project would now be considered along with other programs during the spending review.
With his department facing spending cuts of up to 40 per cent, there are fears that the Intercity Express Programme (IEP) could be axed completely.

"Fears that the IEP could be axed"? Aw, boo hoo! Long live the HST!

 

[Greenback]

The point I'm keen on emphasising is that for HST's to be still running around in front line service in the 2020's would not be good for the railway, even if they are refurbished, enhanced or whatever.

What other form of long distance transport will be over 40 years old and still in regular use by then? Will we be flying around in aircraft built in 1975 and designed in 1970? Cars? Coaches? Ferries? (Pride of Bilbao was built in 1986 and considered too old by P&O Ferries)

Although it;s good for the HST fans, public perception of old trains may lead to a fall in the numbers of rail travellers, particularly as they are seen as noisy, dirty and envirnmentally unfriendly.

 

[dk1]

what sort of loading do HSTs get between Edinburgh-Inverness & Edinburgh-Aberdeen?

As others have commented they can be quite busy. I have often been very surprised at the healthy loadings they do get North of Edinburgh with internal & Anglo-Scottish traffic. The 'Highland Chieftan' also had a well used restaurant car through the Highlands until the delightful National Express spoiled that aswell.

 

[SussexSpotter]

so does that mean Sussex will be keeping its 319's as well? I like the 319's

 

[b0b]

so does that mean Sussex will be keeping its 319's as well? I like the 319's

I'm beginning to think that the Midland Mainline in the 90s was about the best line ... when I'd get trains Bedford to London I'd either have Valenta power, or if not, I'd have to be "stuck" with the wonderful electric hums of a 319.

And coming into the real part of St Pancras, even though run down and somewhat desolate, was always fun - still an amazing railway station.

And a 319 was always a fun little bash from East Croydon to Gatwick Airport when I was on the south side.

 

[scotsman]

what sort of loading do HSTs get between Edinburgh-Inverness & Edinburgh-Aberdeen?

The 1830 (ex-EDB, 1400 ex-KGX) tends to be lightly loaded, because of the XC Voyager which leaves Edinburgh at 1816 absolutely crammed because until fairly recently, off-peak tickets from certain destinations weren't valid on it.
Also, because many can't be bothered to wait.

 

[SussexSpotter]

would be nice to see them return some older emu's to the mainline to reduce overcrowding on the busy routes and then in years to come when our finances are back on track, bring in the new stock. Anyone know what emu's are sitting in storage somewhere that could be used on the brighton mainline?

 

[starrymarkb]

IIRC the only stored units are 442s (being unstored and prepped for service) and some 508s (think Merseyrail might have baggsied them)

Someone on uk.railway claims - there is a threat to a lot of late BR era stock from Hydrogen Embrittlement. Mk4s are at risk, not sure about the Mk3...

 

[yorksrob]

Someone on uk.railway claims - there is a threat to a lot of late BR era stock from Hydrogen Embrittlement. Mk4s are at risk, not sure about the Mk3...

That doesn't sound good. Is that a problem which deteriorates over the lifetime of the carriage or is it a flaw that remains the same from when it's built?

 

[455driver]

The point I'm keen on emphasising is that for HST's to be still running around in front line service in the 2020's would not be good for the railway, even if they are refurbished, enhanced or whatever.

What other form of long distance transport will be over 40 years old and still in regular use by then? Will we be flying around in aircraft built in 1975 and designed in 1970? Cars? Coaches? Ferries? (Pride of Bilbao was built in 1986 and considered too old by P&O Ferries)

Although it;s good for the HST fans, public perception of old trains may lead to a fall in the numbers of rail travellers, particularly as they are seen as noisy, dirty and envirnmentally unfriendly.

But the public don't perceive them as "old trains", apart from the manual doors, which hopefully will be sorted, who would know that the oldest HSTs are 34 years old! The new engines have sorted the noise and emissions (compare a HST with a 8 or 9 coach voyager) and they definitely are NOT dirty.
Surely its the travelling experience that matters not the actual age of the vehicle, they are comfortable, have decent and quiet air-con, ride well and have plenty of space, or are you saying new is better and always try to sit beside Templecombe in his voyager .

 

[Drsatan]

When traveling on the Rhaetian Railway in Switzerland a couple of years ago I noticed that although many of the railway's coaches were, in some cases, over 40 years old, they were still very comfortable to travel in. Better still, the windows in the saloons could be pulled down so you could stick your head out!

Likewise, when traveling in Devon, IMO FGW's HSTs have a much better passenger environment than the 220s/221s XC uses (apart from the odd XC HST) despite the seats used in FGWs HSTs. HSTs have a better ride, there's almost no noise and vibration, and the air con doesn't stink.

Therefore, age does not matter in terms of rolling stock. Only passenger comfort.

 

[asylumxl]

Excuse me folks. But am I missing something here? Where does it say the IEP has been canceled?

It's just The Telegraph making a rubbish story out of a report thats openly available to the public.

I felt that the gist of the report was that Foster felt other options weren't considered properly, but felt that Hitachi offered a good solution and was willing to take on some of the risk of the contract.

While I appreciate that the IEP probably will be scrapped under this government, it hasn't been said yet.

 

[Ricardo]

455Driver, agreed! The vast majority of the normal travelling public simply wont notice that they are travelling on a 30+ year old HST if it has an interior which is up to 21st century standards and mod cons that they'd expect (air con, wi-fi, decent seats, etc). Certainly FGW & East Coast's Mk3 refurbs are up to the minute in terms of interior design. Swing plug doors and a very few other enhancements will complete the image.

Indeed when the class 455s were refurbished on SWT a few years ago, some punters actually thought they were new trains!!

The important things for most passengers are running a reliable, timely service at an affordable and competetive cost, whilst providing a reasonable level of comfort to travel in. And I'd say that with the current HST fleet this is entirely possible, and will probably remain possible until the 2020s. Certainly the FGW fleet give the impression of being well looked-after and of having plenty of life left in them.

What other form of long distance transport will be over 40 years old and still in regular use by then? Will we be flying around in aircraft built in 1975 and designed in 1970? Cars? Coaches? Ferries? (Pride of Bilbao was built in 1986 and considered too old by P&O Ferries)

Well, to that end, I raise you the Boeing 737. First flew in 1967, and yet with more than 2,000 aircraft still on order!

The basic structure of a 1967 model 737 is pretty much the same as a 2010 model one, but your 2010 version 737 will have totally different engines, electronics, and interior, all pretty much using the latest technology. Just like an HST- new technology in an old body.

Ryanair, one of the world's most successful airlines,operate only Boeing 737s, with an average fleet age of 2.5 years. Greenback, would you say that people are put off flying Ryanair because they happen to fly an aircraft design that is 43 years old? Would your average Ryanair punter even have a clue wjhat they were flying on, let alone how old the original design is?

 

[Helvellyn]

Like I said in my first post in this topic. The government is looking at everything to see what gives best value for money overall.

It could be that best value for money is a few infill electrification schemes, plus the associated new EMUs, and rebuild HSTs for another 20 years use, and start wide spread electrification in 10 years time.

Or it could be a case of electrify a few lines (and certain infill schemes) now and order suitable stock at the same time, and get ready to ditch HSTs for good in 10 years time.

We won't know until the government report is out in October.

Exactly. The latest Railway Magazine says that Great Western electrification could be put on hold, but that Midland Mainline electrification is suddenly going to shoot up the agenda. Why? Because the MML would be simpler and cheaper to electrify than the Great Western, which will involve multiple routes (including divisionary ones) and would still see a lot of diesel running under the wires. Benefit of MML is believed to be that it can still get the people, equipment, etc, up and running, then in a few years time after it's done it can be moved on to the GW. The aim still seems to be to get back to a rolling scheme of electrification, but to change the priorities.

It's the same with IEP. It was starting to get so complex, with units being built for various types of routes, that the cost to benefits ratio was reducing all the time. So what could happen is that IEP goes ahead, but not as a one-size-fits-all type train. The HST fleet was built in batches, route by route, but to a fairly standard design. So what if we had prototype IEP on the ECML; Batch one on electrified MML; batch two on ECML; batch three on electrified GW (Bristol/Swansea)... The HST fleet was built over nearly a decade, and there is no reason that IEP could not be likewise.

I'm not jumping up and down with joy at the proposed spending cuts over the next few years. But neither am I stupid enough to ignore the fact that the country can't keep living on the never-never that Labour had us doing. The figures being mentioned for the public debt don't even take into account the huge amount of PPP debt (hospitals, etc, built with private money that is then paid for by the state over 20-40 years, a bit like a mortguage) or public pensions, that we all pay for through taxation as public pension schemes are to various degress funded through taxation rather than contributions.

You know, at the risk of sounding like Richard Littlejohn why is it that the typical Local Concil is saying that it's parks, libraries, weekly bin collections that are risk with a spending squeeze and not the Five-a-day Outreach Co-ordinator or the District Energy Efficiency Advisor?

 

[starrymarkb]

Well, to that end, I raise you the Boeing 737. First flew in 1967, and yet with more than 2,000 aircraft still on order!

The basic structure of a 1967 model 737 is pretty much the same as a 2010 model one, but your 2010 version 737 will have totally different engines, electronics, and interior, all pretty much using the latest technology. Just like an HST- new technology in an old body.

Not really, they are still new build from all new components. You won't find many first gen 737s still in service in the western world - With Airliners there are a lot of common elements used. The 737 fuselage design goes back to the 707

 

[Darandio]

Not really, they are still new build from all new components. You won't find many first gen 737s still in service in the western world - With Airliners there are a lot of common elements used. The 737 fuselage design goes back to the 707

Exactly the same as HST's then, which is his point.

 

[Dewedin]

The ECML is well served by 43s and 91s, I regularly travel between Edinburgh and West Yorkshire so I'm very familiar with both, and these are still the marker that other intercity trains are judged by which really speaks as to their lasting quality. There are other classes in far greater need of scrapping *cough* PACERS *cough* and the money would be better spent on electrification schemes in my opinion. Although right now we are running Voyagers on all-electric routes

HS2 is also a more important project than IEP for me, even though I only rarely go to London.