TfGM Bee Network - fleet discussion

[toms]

I asked the social media team in March last year and they told me that the B5s will be replaced by new electrics within 12 months (from then). Apparently it hadn't yet been decided whether they would be cascaded somewhere else in GM or not, and evidently there hasn't been much movement since. I certainly hope they don't get refurbished, it won't be anywhere near as nice as now!

I can’t imagine you’d be able to refurb the upperdeck coach like seats

 

[Leyland Bus]

I can’t imagine you’d be able to refurb the upperdeck coach like seats

Ofcourse you can, how do you think they were made? You can re cover them with any material you like.

 

[mayneway]

In Ashton, the opposite has happened. The 336/7 and 389, which over recent years were operated by First, Mct, First again and finally Diamond, all with single deckers. Now Metroline run all the routes with doubles, they really are not needed on these local routes.

When First pulled out of Tameside Stagecoach picked up the 336/337 and 389 commercially during the daytime and ran them with a mix of E200’s but mainly E400’s. The reason for this was the inter working with other routes - from memory they did a 336/337 then a 347 or a 389 then a 346.
Looking at bus times tonight it’s once again inter worked with other Ashton services which works better.

The interesting one to watch here is GNW. I’ve read several comments on various Facebook groups that the buses being used from Denton depot are way too small. Mellors were used on the 341 between Hyde and Glossop one day last week and apparently passengers were left behind at bus stops as the bus was full. This obviously isn’t Go north wests fault but TFGM’s who set the bus type and capacity! But TFGM will go off previous passenger data…..
The previous operator was ‘cash only’!!

 

[M60lad]

Things have changed on 356 recently since Diamond took over the route, at first they were using small MMC200s but from last week 2 duties are run with Mellor Strata's and the 3rd duty is one of the Fiat Mellor Orion's.

 

[Class 466]

When First pulled out of Tameside Stagecoach picked up the 336/337 and 389 commercially during the daytime and ran them with a mix of E200’s but mainly E400’s. The reason for this was the inter working with other routes - from memory they did a 336/337 then a 347 or a 389 then a 346.
Looking at bus times tonight it’s once again inter worked with other Ashton services which works better.

The interesting one to watch here is GNW. I’ve read several comments on various Facebook groups that the buses being used from Denton depot are way too small. Mellors were used on the 341 between Hyde and Glossop one day last week and apparently passengers were left behind at bus stops as the bus was full. This obviously isn’t Go north wests fault but TFGM’s who set the bus type and capacity! But TFGM will go off previous passenger data…..
The previous operator was ‘cash only’!!

Stotts services were cash only because those were the machines supplied to them by TfGM - not through choice of their own

 

[mangad]

Things have changed on 356 recently since Diamond took over the route, at first they were using small MMC200s but from last week 2 duties are run with Mellor Strata's and the 3rd duty is one of the Fiat Mellor Orion's.

In contrast the 385 has gone from being Stratas and Orion's, to single deckers.

 

[Marcus Fryer]

Stotts services were cash only because those were the machines supplied to them by TfGM - not through choice of their own

So (purely conjecture) journeys using ENTCS passes may not have been recorded?

 

[mayneway]

So (purely conjecture) journeys using ENTCS passes may not have been recorded?

No! Journeys using passes WERE recorded but some cash fares might not have been.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jan 2025 ==

Stotts services were cash only because those were the machines supplied to them by TfGM - not through choice of their own

Fully aware of that but it also plays into the hands of some drivers who will take the opportunity to not issue tickets!!

The 202 was an evening/Sunday service along the same lines as the 341. It was a well used service that connected some areas that were completely cut off otherwise, yet it was withdrawn because data showed it wasn’t used - yet it was!!

 

[Marcus Fryer]

No! Journeys using passes WERE recorded but some cash fares might not have been.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jan 2025 ==


Fully aware of that but it also plays into the hands of some drivers who will take the opportunity to not issue tickets!!

The 202 was an evening/Sunday service along the same lines as the 341. It was a well used service that connected some areas that were completely cut off otherwise, yet it was withdrawn because data showed it wasn’t used - yet it was!!

There’s some pretty serious allegations there.

 

[mangad]

There’s some pretty serious allegations there.

I'm not going to name the operator or the service, but last year I was on near the front of a bus where a passenger boarded, placed their £2 in the tray, and wandered up the bus driver could even issue a ticket. I could see the machine where I was sat. I'm very sure the driver would have issued a ticket if the passenger had waited for one. But the machine issued no ticket.

Not saying the driver pocketed that money because I don't know for sure they did. Maybe they simply chucked it in the cash tray. Who knows. But when there's cash fares paid, and there's no inspectors or inspections, and passengers who don't even wait for a ticket, well you can see scenarios where it could happen.

 

[mayneway]

There’s some pretty serious allegations there.

Not really. It went on at most companies before the introduction of TSO’s and probably still does - although any driver faces a lot worse now than before!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jan 2025 ==

I'm not going to name the operator or the service, but last year I was on near the front of a bus where a passenger boarded, placed their £2 in the tray, and wandered up the bus driver could even issue a ticket. I could see the machine where I was sat. I'm very sure the driver would have issued a ticket if the passenger had waited for one. But the machine issued no ticket.

Not saying the driver pocketed that money because I don't know for sure they did. Maybe they simply chucked it in the cash tray. Who knows. But when there's cash fares paid, and there's no inspectors or inspections, and passengers who don't even wait for a ticket, well you can see scenarios where it could happen.

Yep you’re spot on.
Where I used to work drivers used to fight for duties that included afternoon school services. We had 2 revenue officers who would announce on blink what corridor they would be on etc.
Im not for minute suggesting all drivers are bang at it but there will be opportunists who will always try to cash in on it!

 

[py_megapixel]

I was on a Bee Network bus the other day where two inspectors boarded and asked the driver to type a special code to get some sort of report out of the ticket machine, as well as going round and inspected all the passengers' tickets. Not sure how frequently this happens on TfGM, but I don't recall ever seeing it on Stagecoach, First, Go-Ahead or any other operator.

 

[mangad]

I was on a Bee Network bus the other day where two inspectors boarded and asked the driver to type a special code to get some sort of report out of the ticket machine, as well as going round and inspected all the passengers' tickets. Not sure how frequently this happens on TfGM, but I don't recall ever seeing it on Stagecoach, First, Go-Ahead or any other operator.

Pre-franchising, TfGM had a team of data collectors who would go round, look at tickets, and record data from them. Remember them doing it in the 90s when I was travelling to school, and was surprised last year to find they were still doing them.

Or it could well be they now have people checking tickets for fare evasion like they do on the trams. Wouldn't surprise me.

 

[Goldfish62]

Or it could well be they now have people checking tickets for fare evasion like they do on the trams. Wouldn't surprise me.

It's TfGM's revenue now so I'd expect them to.

 

[Andyh82]

I was on a Bee Network bus the other day where two inspectors boarded and asked the driver to type a special code to get some sort of report out of the ticket machine, as well as going round and inspected all the passengers' tickets. Not sure how frequently this happens on TfGM, but I don't recall ever seeing it on Stagecoach, First, Go-Ahead or any other operator.

Were these typically two blokes working together wearing a grey uniform, as since the Bee Network was introduced, TfGM have recruited more travel safe officers who I have seen on many occasions patrolling bus stations and travelling on buses, checking tickets and generally as a reassuring presence.

 

[mayneway]

Pre-franchising, TfGM had a team of data collectors who would go round, look at tickets, and record data from them. Remember them doing it in the 90s when I was travelling to school, and was surprised last year to find they were still doing them.

Or it could well be they now have people checking tickets for fare evasion like they do on the trams. Wouldn't surprise me.

The data collectors were there purely to record passes for reimbursements, they could not challenge any fare or even pass evaders.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jan 2025 ==

Were these typically two blokes working together wearing a grey uniform, as since the Bee Network was introduced, TfGM have recruited more travel safe officers who I have seen on many occasions patrolling bus stations and travelling on buses, checking tickets and generally as a reassuring presence.

Believe there’s 90 travel safe officers now travelling across the network. They have just been given powers to issue penalty fares although it will be interesting to see what difference this makes regarding free loaders etc.

 

[py_megapixel]

Believe there’s 90 travel safe officers now travelling across the network. They have just been given powers to issue penalty fares although it will be interesting to see what difference this makes regarding free loaders etc.

I understand it's an issue on trams but single door buses

• everyone has to board by the driver, so you can't avoid paying altogether
• passes and period tickets are validated electronically, so it's unlikely the driver would accidentally pass outdated/forged ones
• everyone else pays a flat fare, so no scope for travelling further than the ticket allows

so are there many freeloaders in the first place?

I suppose they will catch people who have boarded and flatly refused to pay, or bought a discounted ticket they are not entitled to. But it seems mostly they will catch out people who have done the very common thing of paying a single fare but immediately discarding their ticket, not realising it might be inspected.

 

[WibbleWobble]

I was on a Bee Network bus the other day where two inspectors boarded and asked the driver to type a special code to get some sort of report out of the ticket machine, as well as going round and inspected all the passengers' tickets. Not sure how frequently this happens on TfGM, but I don't recall ever seeing it on Stagecoach, First, Go-Ahead or any other operator.

It happened at both Stagecoach and First - I've seen inspectors ask drivers to print off a report when boarding.

 

[MCRTransitYT]

What's the plan with gnw 4201?

 

[mayneway]

so are there many freeloaders in the first place?

Yes!
The fact the bus is single door plays little relevance.
You have the ‘my phones dead’ or the ‘I’ve lost my money/ticket’ brigade.

Or there’s the blatant ones who will simply walk on and sit down knowing the chances of being challenged are next to zero!
I was driving last week and lo and behold someone gets on and flashes the top part of a hopper ticket, bottom part with QR code torn off. Chances are someone else has the bottom section so it’s a two person ticket.

It got so bad stagecoach actually put little yellow stickers on the assault screen on each commercial bus - I’ll try and post a pic of one tomorrow.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Had an unfortunately very loud B9 yesterday on the 38 but…
… today I’ve seen three lovely all black front brand new ones running the route! First time I’ve seen anything better than a Magic Bus green or Stagecoach Beachball old Enviro since BEE took over. Hopefully the B9s demise in Manchester and Salford is not far now.

 

[darylyates17]

Had an unfortunately very loud B9 yesterday on the 38 but…
… today I’ve seen three lovely all black front brand new ones running the route! First time I’ve seen anything better than a Magic Bus green or Stagecoach Beachball old Enviro since BEE took over. Hopefully the B9s demise in Manchester and Salford is not far now.

They should be all replaced by spring by BZLs & E400EVs, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if more new vehicles are ordered to replace the ex Stagecoach E400Hs.

 

[Class 466]

I wouldn’t be at all surprised if more new vehicles are ordered to replace the ex Stagecoach E400Hs.

Original plan was for the newer B5LHs in London to come up once they're displaced by EVs down there - no idea if that is still the case

 

[Fox192]

Is Manchester just the dumping ground for hybrids?

Original plan was for the newer B5LHs in London to come up once they're displaced by EVs down there - no idea if that is still the case

 

[mayneway]

Is Manchester just the dumping ground for hybrids?

In a word yes!!
TFGM were in desperate need of buses and Stagecoach wanted rid at a much better price than scrap value so it makes perfect business sense to sell.

 

[Andyh82]

In a word yes!!
TFGM were in desperate need of buses and Stagecoach wanted rid at a much better price than scrap value so it makes perfect business sense to sell.

I’m guessing TfGM see Hybrids as a good thing, as to the layperson reading a press release in the Manchester Evening News they sound better than a dirty old diesel

Whereas those in the industry know that those early hybrids are now reaching the stage where they are becoming troublesome, so Stagecoach were happy to get rid

I’m surprised the hybrids that First West Yorks have just got rid of (ironically replaced by 58 plate ex First Manchester Geminis same batch as the infamous ex-GNW ones that are gradually touring round Manchester) didn’t also turn up here

 

[citybus2500]

Anyone in Manchester this afternoon/evening should keep a look out for something different on the 216.

 

[Leyland Bus]

Anyone in Manchester this afternoon/evening should keep a look out for something different on the 216.

Is there a demo doing the rounds again??

 

[xitz2012@gmail]

Anyone in Manchester this afternoon/evening should keep a look out for something different on the 216.

Loaning vehicles from First again I see!

 

[Class 466]

Anyone in Manchester this afternoon/evening should keep a look out for something different on the 216.

33849 (SN14TTY) + First Drivers are out on there at the moment covering for a driver shortage at Ashton - more may come on later