Sunday Work - A New Honesty?

[Harpo]

We’ve seen lots of ‘staff shortages’, ‘staff unavailable’ etc. when train cancellations occur but the honesty of this from Northern on NRES surprised me:

“Higher than normal levels of cancellations are taking place, in particular on Sunday, as this is contractually outside of the working week.”

Is this a slip up? (screenshot for posterity), the start of a new level of honesty? or a little bit of politics?

Incident: NT North West | National Rail

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[Carlisle]

Merely a continuation of the long established practice of one section of the railway blaming another be it Dft, Network Rail, Government Ministers, Contractors, TOC management etc etc etc.
I sincerely hope GBR can eventually foster a new culture.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would be nice if they'd also stop using the meaningless "due to a late notice change to the timetable" and use a correct reason as above. Presumably though the reason for this is so they know Delay Repay is excluded? The undertone is "it's cancelled because it is, so ner" - it's amazing how much that grates.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Presumably though the reason for this is so they know Delay Repay is excluded?

I have been consistently getting delay repay for weekday "Short notice change to the timetable" cancellations
Can't comment on Sundays since I don't bother trying to travel on that day.

 

[Moonshot]

Judging by the amount of vitriol from passengers on social media, the public are well aware of the Sunday staffing issues.

 

[Jan Mayen]

What would the timetable look like if it were planned on the basis of staff actually available without using overtime or RDW?

 

[MrJeeves]

It would be nice if they'd also stop using the meaningless "due to a late notice change to the timetable" and use a correct reason as above. Presumably though the reason for this is so they know Delay Repay is excluded? The undertone is "it's cancelled because it is, so ner" - it's amazing how much that grates.

"This train has been cancelled due to... industrial agreements not accounting for this day of the week."

 

[JonathanH]

What would the timetable look like if it were planned on the basis of staff actually available without using overtime or RDW?

For some operators it would mean no services at all on Sundays.

 

[TheSel]

What would the timetable look like if it were planned on the basis of staff actually available without using overtime or RDW?

"This Page Intentionally Left Blank" ?

 

[43066]

Merely a continuation of the long established practice of one section of the railway blaming another be it Dft, Network Rail, Government Ministers, Contractors, TOC management etc etc etc.
I sincerely hope GBR can eventually foster a new culture.

Which section of the railway does the statement that Sunday “is contractually outside the working week” place blame onto?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Dec 2024 ==

"This train has been cancelled due to... industrial agreements not accounting for this day of the week."

Employment contracts, rather than industrial agreements.

 

[MrJeeves]

Employment contracts, rather than industrial agreements.

I thought the employment agreements were effectively collectively agreed by unions and TOCs, and were typically standardised per-depot/base/etc.

If that's the case, I'd really class that as an industrial agreement given each employee presumably can't negotiate directly when it comes to their individual contractual terms?

Happy to be corrected, though, as I don't work for a TOC!

 

[43066]

I thought the employment agreements were effectively collectively agreed by unions and TOCs, and were typically standardised per-depot/base/etc.

If that's the case, I'd really class that as an industrial agreement given each employee presumably can't negotiate directly when it comes to their individual contractual terms?

Happy to be corrected, though, as I don't work for a TOC!

I think there is a distinction in the sense that Sundays being outside the week is an express term of the employment contract, as distinct from “local agreements”, which govern things like how much notice of changes in shifts is required to be given, movements off spare etc. (which also can’t be negotiated by individual employees).

Put another way, if there was no union involvement at all, the steps to change an express contractual term are different to the steps used to vary Ts and Cs, which are generally in a separate document which is incorporated into the contract (eg a “staff handbook”), and can more easily be unilaterally varied by the employer.

 

[Scotrail84]

Staff traditionally reserve right not to work a Sunday unless it's 'booked', and even then if they don't turn up for their shift theres not much the companies can do as its classed as 'overtime' and you cant be forced to work overtime. I know not all TOCs have Sundays outside the working week, but those that do will find it very difficult to incorporate them into the working without having to pay a premium to the grades involved. These are years old conditions that wont be sold easily - if at all.

 

[43066]

Staff traditionally reserve right not to work a Sunday unless it's 'booked‘

That’s committed Sundays, rather than Sundays outside, where it isn’t part of the working week at all, and there’s no commitment to work any.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Staff traditionally reserve right not to work a Sunday unless it's 'booked', and even then if they don't turn up for their shift theres not much the companies can do as its classed as 'overtime' and you cant be forced to work overtime. I know not all TOCs have Sundays outside the working week, but those that do will find it very difficult to incorporate them into the working without having to pay a premium to the grades involved. These are years old conditions that wont be sold easily - if at all.

I think the time has come when this needs to change. The new world has less daily commuting, and more weekend leisure (and other non-work related) travel by rail.

Rail workers don't ultimately want to be like the British car industry workers of the 70's and collapse the industry in on itself.

 

[Gathursty]

Staff traditionally reserve right not to work a Sunday unless it's 'booked', and even then if they don't turn up for their shift theres not much the companies can do as its classed as 'overtime' and you cant be forced to work overtime. I know not all TOCs have Sundays outside the working week, but those that do will find it very difficult to incorporate them into the working without having to pay a premium to the grades involved. These are years old conditions that wont be sold easily - if at all.

Staff would still get a day off if Sunday was included in the working week and you can get things done on the other day off that you might not be able to on Sunday. There's bigger hills to die on than this old-fashioned view of Sundays.

 

[43066]

Rail workers don't ultimately want to be like the British car industry workers of the 70's and collapse the industry in on itself.

So your position is that the staff should simply accept a major change to Ts and Cs without recompense (how many Monday Friday 9-5ers would simply agree to start coming in on Sundays?). That will not be happening, and there is also no danger of the industry collapsing in on itself.

Many railway workers already have Sundays inside the week, of course, where this has been negotiated for and agreed as part of a wider pay settlement.

Staff would still get a day off if Sunday was included in the working week and you can get things done on the other day off that you might not be able to on Sunday. There's bigger hills to die on than this old-fashioned view of Sundays.

But the issue is that there is seemingly still no appetite to bring Sundays inside the week from the employer side (as per the recent “offer” to Northern which was for committed Sundays). This has been explained many times, on many threads. And no, enforced overtime can’t generally be booked off as annual leave.

 

[LAX54]

That’s committed Sundays, rather than Sundays outside, where it isn’t part of the working week at all, and there’s no commitment to work any.

On Network Rail (Signallers) there is, Sunday is outside the working week, but appears on the roster, you can make yourself N/A, but, if there is no cover, you have to come to work.

 

[Scotrail84]

I think the time has come when this needs to change. The new world has less daily commuting, and more weekend leisure (and other non-work related) travel by rail.

Rail workers don't ultimately want to be like the British car industry workers of the 70's and collapse the industry in on itself.

No I don't think so. Staff fought for these conditions years ago and they wont be sold for buttons. Knowing you're off own a Sunday 6 months in advance is good so you know you can go out on a Saturday and not have to worry about working a Sunday or have to put in a lieu day and sweat about getting it or not.

 

[skyhigh]

On Network Rail (Signallers) there is, Sunday is outside the working week, but appears on the roster, you can make yourself N/A, but, if there is no cover, you have to come to work.

That is exactly what a commited Sunday is?

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Staff would still get a day off if Sunday was included in the working week and you can get things done on the other day off that you might not be able to on Sunday. There's bigger hills to die on than this old-fashioned view of Sundays.

That's a big if. Committed Sundays are fine to an extent but Sundays inside will not be easily added to some TOCs, unless it doesn't increase number of weekends days worked and accounts for the increased pay rate of Sundays currently.

Even in retail I had more weekend days off than on the railway! But there are no plans to have weekend only staff.

 

[Scotrail84]

Staff would still get a day off if Sunday was included in the working week and you can get things done on the other day off that you might not be able to on Sunday. There's bigger hills to die on than this old-fashioned view of Sundays.

It would involve a complete roster change though.

 

[LAX54]

Staff would still get a day off if Sunday was included in the working week and you can get things done on the other day off that you might not be able to on Sunday. There's bigger hills to die on than this old-fashioned view of Sundays.

Indeed, if Sundays were within the 35 hour week, then additional rest days would be needed, that would need additional staff, and that would not be cheap, Back in the day I recall the NUR wanted Sundays as part of the week, but BR, then RT did not want that at all !

 

[Scotrail84]

That is exactly what a commited Sunday is?

Yes but it's 'forced' overtime so if they don't come out there is very little the company can do. You cant be sacked for not working overtime.

 

[43066]

On Network Rail (Signallers) there is, Sunday is outside the working week, but appears on the roster, you can make yourself N/A, but, if there is no cover, you have to come to work.

That surely is still committed Sundays? True Sundays outside never appear on the roster. We have a small link of drivers at my depot in that position, they have no rostered Sundays, and would only work a Sunday if volunteering for RDW.

 

[LAX54]

That is exactly what a commited Sunday is?

It is and it isnt, Signallers Sundays are not 'commited' as such, and if you are not wanted on a particular Sunday for whatever reason, you won't be paid. (it is rare not to find a signaller to cover you tho !)
I have known many 'arguments' with Staff / Managers when booked off on a Sunday when the 25th/26th December falls on a Sunday !

 

[43066]

It is and it isnt, Signallers Sundays are not 'commited' as such, and if you are not wanted on a particular Sunday for whatever reason, you won't be paid. (it is rare not to find a signaller to cover you tho !)

But you said yourself they appear on your roster and you’re committed to work them if no cover can be found. That’s not the case where Sundays are outside the working week.

 

[LAX54]

But you said yourself you’re committed to work it if no cover can be found.

Yes, but it is not deemed 'committed' for some reason, maybe because if they book you off on a Sunday that you are rostered to work, you dont get paid.

 

[43066]

Yes, but it is not deemed 'committed' for some reason, maybe because if they book you off on a Sunday that you are rostered to work, you dont get paid.

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck .

 

[GuyGibsonVC]

Network Rail Mainteance staff have 24/7 rostering in since around 2007/8.

I think they got a lump sum and around a 33% pay rise for it, which shows how much this would cost.