Sunday Work - A New Honesty?

[piers1234]

Until Sunday is part of the working week and 2 days off are together as opposed to a random day and then possibly a Sunday off if you’re lucky then nothing will change, the Unions and management have had this elephant in the room for years or allowing people who want to work themselves to death to dictate to staff who only want to work their basic salaried hours, this shouldn’t be allowed to continue.
This draconian practice on top of working unsociable hours is Victorian to say the least yet the union allowed this to remain as opposed to fighting for a liveable basic week, any socialist or union person worth their salt would know the basic mantra of the union is better hours and conditions, not guarantees of overtime.
I reject the phrase that the railway has always run on overtime, that’s convenient for the people that benefit from the status quo and also disingenuous, the unions need to present the issues, the costs involved to the government of a 7 day week roster for all staff.
It can be done it’s just the railway has always been backward in moving forward.
I can think of some rosters that the unions have agreed to that are so Dickensian that Scrooge would stop his employees working them.
All grades deserve better and so do the public.

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I thought it was time and 3/4 on a Sunday, time and a 1/2 on rest day and time and 3/4 on a Saturday rest day?

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The RMT allowed flat rate Sundays to be come in at some toc’s on some grades for an overall higher basic pay, now the other tocs have largely caught up so that flat rate became moot.
The RMT and others are complicit in this. They need to come out and categorically state they’re striving for more staff, a better work life balance and a 7 day week railway, sitting on the fence is helping no one apart from the people who want to live at their place of work, I’ve no issue with that but it shouldn’t be to the detriment of people who want a life.

The only elephant in the room is that the the Union, Aslef want Sundays inside the working!!.

The management, the companies, the dft, the government do not.

It's that simple. It's been done to death.

 

[Red Rover]

The only elephant in the room is that the the Union, Aslef want Sundays inside the working!!.

The management, the companies, the dft, the government do not.

It's that simple. It's been done to death.

Aslef may want it now for their members due to the tax threshold, RMT members aren’t so lucky as they haven’t that leverage.
It all needs to be brought out in the open and discussed.
Salaries, overtime, hours worked, everything.
The RMT as I’ve said signed away Sundays on some toc’s. Shortsighted and naive but we are where we are.

 

[piers1234]

Aslef may want it now for their members due to the tax threshold, RMT members aren’t so lucky as they haven’t that leverage.
It all needs to be brought out in the open and discussed.
Salaries, overtime, hours worked, everything.
The RMT as I’ve said signed away Sundays on some toc’s. Shortsighted and naive b are where we are.

No idea what you mean by the "tax threshold" comment! Very bizarre.

Aslef want it in the working week so drivers don't have to work enforced o/t and many other reasons.

 

[66701GBRF]

Aslef may want it now for their members due to the tax threshold, RMT members aren’t so lucky as they haven’t that leverage.

Tax thresholds have nothing to do with it.

 

[Krokodil]

Tax thresholds have nothing to do with it.

Unless it's because the extra salary would be pensionable whereas overtime is not.

 

[Red Rover]

Tax thresholds have nothing to do with it.

They do to drivers I know and work with.

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No idea what you mean by the "tax threshold" comment! Very bizarre.

Aslef want it in the working week so drivers don't have to work enforced o/t and many other reasons.

They want it now, in the 90’s I heard no scream for it but the salaries were much lower, maybe that’ll give you an indication to why.

 

[43066]

Until Sunday is part of the working week and 2 days off are together as opposed to a random day and then possibly a Sunday off if you’re lucky then nothing will change,

That’s exactly what ASLEF have fought for and achieved at many places, including where I work.

This draconian practice on top of working unsociable hours is Victorian to say the least yet the union allowed this to remain as opposed to fighting for a liveable basic week, any socialist or union person worth their salt would know the basic mantra of the union is better hours and conditions, not guarantees of overtime.

A four day week, as fought for by the unions, is pretty liveable, along with the five day weekend every three weeks. Unfortunately the anti social hours can’t be avoided due to the nature of the industry, but the agreements we have at least make it liveable. They could be made a lot worse (see freight Ts and Cs).

I reject the phrase that the railway has always run on overtime, that’s convenient for the people that benefit from the status quo and also disingenuous

It’s simply a statement of fact, so on what basis do you reject it? I doubt you’ll find many people working in this industry who don’t believe it, simply because they know it’s true. The Sundays issue is related but also slightly separate to this general point.

I can think of some rosters that the unions have agreed to that are so Dickensian that Scrooge would stop his employees working them.
All grades deserve better and so do the public.

The unions don’t act for the public, but for their members. Some rosters are clearly better than others, and the role of the unions is to try to ensure they’re as good as possible, also taking fatigue etc. into account which thankfully the industry is beginning to take more seriously. It’s for the TOCs to negotiate based on their needs (responsibility to provide the service) and then resource accordingly. I agree bringing Sundays into the week is a key part of this from the union side - hence the current resistance to committed Sundays, which I also agree they probably shouldn’t ever have agreed to previously.

If you aren’t happy with your rosters, have you raised it with your reps?

Aslef may want it now for their members due to the tax threshold, RMT members aren’t so lucky as they haven’t that leverage.
It all needs to be brought out in the open and discussed.
Salaries, overtime, hours worked, everything.
The RMT as I’ve said signed away Sundays on some toc’s. Shortsighted and naive but we are where we are.

What is it you think needs to “brought out in the open and discussed”? It seems to be that nothing is being hidden, and indeed the issue has been absolutely done to death on many threads, for many years.

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They want it now, in the 90’s I heard no scream for it but the salaries were much lower, maybe that’ll give you an indication to why.

So, the union wants Sundays in the week, and has achieved a level of earnings such that people don’t need to work committed overtime. Surely that’s a good result, and is what you yourself are arguing for above?

 

[Red Rover]

Not all grades are drivers and haven’t they come out of the general grades? I’m talking about all other non drivers grades who don’t have driver leverage.
My driver mates don’t want to work Sundays as they get hammered for tax, they’d like it quite understandably within their working week.
I’m not too sure fatigue comes into it.

 

[43066]

Not all grades are drivers and haven’t they come out of the general grades? I’m talking about all other non drivers grades who don’t have driver leverage.

The principle is exactly the same, though, for guards and other traincrew grades. The RMT now seem to be against expansion of committed Sundays - so presumably you’re in favour of that?

My driver mates don’t want to work Sundays as they get hammered for tax, they’d like it quite understandably within their working week.

Well we all pay more tax if we earn more! Drivers are already in the 40% bracket but you aren’t more hammered if you do overtime until you hit the 60% marginal tax rate. That will be an issue for many this year, but in most years won’t be, unless you do a lot of overtime. Your driver colleagues will (rightly) also want a rise to bring Sundays inside, just as other grades surely would.

Many guards sit just below the 40% tax bracket, so I can see why they wouldn’t consider it worth their while to do overtime that tips them into it.

I’m not too sure fatigue comes into it.

Fatigue management is a huge part of rostering.

 

[Red Rover]

General grades not just traffic, all across the board there should be full employment, no overtime and Sundays part of the working week.
Drivers in the main will be hitting £80,000-£85,000 with Sundays so I don’t blame them for wanting a compressed 4/4 with Sundays as a part of the working week, when I started they were on a far far lower wage and needed or wanted to do the overtime, money not fatigue is the key issue here now.
All grades within the railway industry should have 2 days off together a week and Sundays should be a part of the working week irrespective of cost.
This is all down to leverage by the way.

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Mick Lynch retiring could slow the process of change also.

 

[43066]

General grades not just traffic, all across the board there should be full employment, no overtime and Sundays part of the working week.

That will probably never happen, realistically. That shouldn’t really matter on an individual level, though, just so long as there’s no forced overtime. If people are free to do as much as little as they wish or need, what’s the issue?

 

[Blackpool boy]

Staff fought for these conditions years ago and they wont be sold for buttons.

Out of interest when did they fight for these conditions on a Sunday? I thought Sundays have always been 'outside' the working week?

 

[Red Rover]

That will probably never happen, realistically. That shouldn’t really matter on an individual level, though, just so long as there’s no forced overtime. If people are free to do as much as little as they wish or need, what’s the issue?

It should happen though, overtime takes away any possibly of a job and a union member, you can’t have it both ways, a great roster and overtime when you want it.
That’s not fair.

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Out of interest when did they fight for these conditions on a Sunday? I thought Sundays have always been 'outside' the working week?

As I said, there always been an uneasy alliance between the management and unions over Sundays, this will change and has done now salaries for the highest has gone up hugely, a quality of life comes into play that didn’t before.
People didn’t have that luxury, or some didn’t.

 

[Krokodil]

Out of interest when did they fight for these conditions on a Sunday? I thought Sundays have always been 'outside' the working week?

I think that if you go back far enough you'll find that all days were outside the working week. By that I mean that crews would have been hourly paid rather than salaried.

 

[43066]

It should happen though, overtime takes away any possibly of a job and a union member, you can’t have it both ways, a great roster and overtime when you want it.
That’s not fair.

I don’t see why the two are mutually exclusive, or why a choice needs to be made. I also don’t want ASLEF to just maximise membership, I want it to act in my interests as a current member. A good salary, a decent roster and voluntary overtime on tap seems to me to be the best of all worlds, so exactly what they should be striving for! I’d always personally choose a decent roster over overtime, though. Most RMT members I know have the same view.

As I said, there always been an uneasy alliance between the management and unions over Sundays, this will change and has done now salaries for the highest has gone up hugely, a quality of life comes into play that didn’t before.

I’m not actually sure it will change, tbh. I’ll leave it there for now as I don’t want to monopolise the thread or drift away from the specific Sunday issue.

 

[Red Rover]

I don’t see why the two are mutually exclusive, or why a choice needs to be made. I also don’t want ASLEF to just maximise membership, I want it to act in my interests as a current member. A good salary, a decent roster and voluntary overtime on tap seems to me to be the best of all worlds, so exactly what they should be striving for! I’d always personally choose a decent roster over overtime, though. Most RMT members I know have the same view.



I’m not actually sure it will change, tbh. I’ll leave it there for now as I don’t want to monopolise the thread or drift away from the specific Sunday issue.

A capitalist union? The railway has changed since I joined but not this much surely.
Cake and eat it isn’t what the Union movement is about.

 

[BrianW]

I’m not actually sure it will change, tbh. I’ll leave it there for now as I don’t want to monopolise the thread or drift away from the specific Sunday issue.

Happy to be corrected but I don't see any allusion to 'the Lord's day' and freedoms enshrined I think (IIRC) in legislation when John Major opened up 'Sunday trading'. El Al flies no planes on 'the sabbath'.

Rest day working on 'the railway' seems to be allabout money, as I read this thread. It's not about rest, no mention of safety being put at risk through overwork.

Leaving it there too- be honest guys. Cannot 'management' and 'workers' make a workable agreement? It looks to me like staff don't actually need the money and can afford to say no thank you.

 

[Red Rover]

Happy to be corrected but I don't see any allusion to 'the Lord's day' and freedoms enshrined I think (IIRC) in legislation when John Major opened up 'Sunday trading'. El Al flies no planes on 'the sabbath'.

Rest day working on 'the railway' seems to be allabout money, as I read this thread. It's not about rest, no mention of safety being put at risk through overwork.

Leaving it there too- be honest guys. Cannot 'management' and 'workers' make a workable agreement? It looks to me like staff don't actually need the money and can afford to say no thank you.

This is about money for some yes I agree, this is a driver centric thread also, ask staff in the railway industry who don’t have the flex and leverage of train drivers and you’ll get a very very different picture of rosters, time off and respect.
I don’t begrudge the drivers that at all, this has come about since privatisation and the beast of right time railway, they’ve used their leverage or the unions have well, the RMT for many members don’t have that and haven’t seen anything near the pay or terms and conditions enhancements they enjoy.

 

[43066]

Rest day working on 'the railway' seems to be allabout money, as I read this thread. It's not about rest, no mention of safety being put at risk through overwork.

Nothing to do with religion. Rest days just means days off and are the same as weekends for “ordinary” workers. If people go to work on their days off they naturally expect to be paid for it.

Fatigue is a safety issue, but overtime is limited by Hidden and the fatigue index systems, as is all rostering.

Leaving it there too- be honest guys. Cannot 'management' and 'workers' make a workable agreement?

The unions are happy with Sundays outside or inside. If Sundays are to be brought inside, that will require payment to reflect the change in Ts and Cs. This can be and has been achieved at many operators, so yes agreement absolutely can be reached.

The objection is to forced overtime - ie committed Sundays.

It looks to me like staff don't actually need the money and can afford to say no thank you.

Some do some don’t. I know a few who hammer overtime to drive cars which cost £1000+ per month on finance, some have big mortgages, young families etc. Some do no overtime as a rule and just live within their basic salary. Most are somewhere in between. Same as any other workforce, surely? It’s a very bad idea to be dependent on overtime, because it isn’t guaranteed.

ask staff in the railway industry who don’t have the flex and leverage of train drivers and you’ll get a very very different picture of rosters, time off and respect.

The ones I speak to broadly want the same as drivers. Some of them also decide to become drivers!

 

[Horizon22]

My driver mates don’t want to work Sundays as they get hammered for tax, they’d like it quite understandably within their working week.

I don't see how this is contentious? Or what your point is - as has been stated many many times, this is the default union position.

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This is about money for some yes I agree, this is a driver centric thread also, ask staff in the railway industry who don’t have the flex and leverage of train drivers and you’ll get a very very different picture of rosters, time off and respect.
I don’t begrudge the drivers that at all, this has come about since privatisation and the beast of right time railway, they’ve used their leverage or the unions have well, the RMT for many members don’t have that and haven’t seen anything near the pay or terms and conditions enhancements they enjoy.

Any particular grade you are thinking of? Signallers for example are taking fatigue much more into account with new rosters and they are represented by the RMT. And they have plenty of leverage to 'stop the job'.

 

[Sealink]

Is it a huge task to make Sundays part of the working week albeit with better pay?

This seems to have been dragging on for decades.

 

[Horizon22]

Is it a huge task to make Sundays part of the working week albeit with better pay?

This seems to have been dragging on for decades.

It comes with a big cost implication (i.e probably a ~15% pay rise) to bring a day reliant on overtime into a rostered week. Hence why TOCs / DfT / Treasury are reluctant and would rather just take the cancellations hit every now and again on Sundays. So this is why there is that situation not really adequately resolved.

 

[ainsworth74]

Is it a huge task to make Sundays part of the working week albeit with better pay?

It's not that tricky the problem is that the DfT and management aren't interested in a) paying for extra staff to provide a seven day a week roster and b) paying something towards the loss of overtime that would result to existing staff.

There's a deal to be done I'm sure and it probably won't be that costly in the grand scheme but it will be more costly than just relying on overtime. Hence we are where we are. Where for some grades its totally voluntary, some it's committed and some it's just part of the working week. It varies across operator and within operators. Northern conductors in the North West have Sundays totally outside the working week (hence the regular lack of a Sunday service), Northern conductors in the East and North East have committed Sundays hence why the service is usually pretty reliable.

It is always worth noting that the RMT, ASLEF and TSSA, as far as I'm aware, are in favour of Sunday being part of the working week. So they aren't the problem and neither are their members...

 

[ExRes]

It should happen though, overtime takes away any possibly of a job and a union member,

In that case I'll ask my same old question again, why do ASLEF keep signing RDW agreements, as they have for over 25 years, instead of sitting back and saying no to the employers, recruit the proper number of drivers as we won't dig you out any longer, but they keep on signing those agreements so obviously don't want to give people the possibility of a job or increase the membership

 

[InOban]

Network Rail Mainteance staff have 24/7 rostering in since around 2007/8.

I think they got a lump sum and around a 33% pay rise for it, which shows how much this would cost.

There are several TOCs where Sunday is inside. How much extra did they get paid?

 

[Moonshot]

It's not that tricky the problem is that the DfT and management aren't interested in a) paying for extra staff to provide a seven day a week roster and b) paying something towards the loss of overtime that would result to existing staff.

There's a deal to be done I'm sure and it probably won't be that costly in the grand scheme but it will be more costly than just relying on overtime. Hence we are where we are. Where for some grades its totally voluntary, some it's committed and some it's just part of the working week. It varies across operator and within operators. Northern conductors in the North West have Sundays totally outside the working week (hence the regular lack of a Sunday service), Northern conductors in the East and North East have committed Sundays hence why the service is usually pretty reliable.

It is always worth noting that the RMT, ASLEF and TSSA, as far as I'm aware, are in favour of Sunday being part of the working week. So they aren't the problem and neither are their members...

I can assure you that there are staff who absolutely do not want Sundays in the working week.

 

[43066]

Is it a huge task to make Sundays part of the working week albeit with better pay?

This seems to have been dragging on for decades.

Nope! The issue is primarily lack of willingness to pay for the increased headcount.

In that case I'll ask my same old question again, why do ASLEF keep signing RDW agreements, as they have for over 25 years

That poster has stated their own view that ASLEF and RMT shouldn’t sanction any overtime. Many members won’t agree, myself included. What railway union members (at least that ones I know) definitely don’t want is compulsory overtime.

I can assure you that there are staff who absolutely do not want Sundays in the working week.

There are some, but they’re a minority, and they primarily just don’t want their Sundays in the working week. That can be accommodated if existing staff are offered a choice to bring them in for a rise, or to continue with then outside, with them inside by default for all new joiners.

 

[rishtonlad]

It will take time and may not be easy to Rota but new starters should have it in their contracts that it is 4 days out of 7.

 

[Mark J]

Whatever the solution is, something has to change.

It is unacceptable for passengers to continue having a 'Sunday Lottery' of which train services may run, or not. With very short notice in some cases, of those trains that don't.

The railway has always been a seven day a week service. Although only properly staffed for six days a week.

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The unions don’t act for the public, but for their members.

Although the unions expect the public to be on board, helping to fight their corner. Especially when industrial action occurs over the latest pay dispute, or working practice they don't agree with.

 

[Krokodil]

Is it a huge task to make Sundays part of the working week albeit with better pay?

This seems to have been dragging on for decades.

The major block is that in order to run a seven day railway without overtime you need seven days' worth of staff. Currently many TOCs don't even have six days' worth. All that extra recruitment, the higher headcounts etc. will cost money.

I can assure you that there are staff who absolutely do not want Sundays in the working week.

But the majority will agree to it for the right price. As is normal in democracies a majority vote tends to be 'winner takes all' and those on the losing side end up having to lump it.