Sunday Work - A New Honesty?

[Krokodil]

Thanks! Is that the same for all train operators?

Beyond that deadline it counts as an on-the-day cancellation and they get stung more for it, so it's in their interest to have them announced by then.

 

[Blackpool boy]

Not sure what the relevance of this is when it was all decades ago? We are where we are, and the unions quite understandably won’t want to sell themselves short when it comes to agreeing to change conditions. It’s up to the employers if they wish to negotiate for and pay for that. Another option, of course, is keeping Sundays outside, and improving incentives to increase volunteers. That’s also a perfectly reasonable approach, and may well be cheaper.

It was just a question i had asked a poster who had stated that they had fought hard for sundays outside the working week and i simply asked when as i was under the impression that they have always been outside the working week - no need to get so defensive when people ask simple questions which should be easy to answer

 

[Darren Hayward]

Signallers don't work for Northern they work for Network Rail

 

[43066]

As I've said before, those working under EU drivers hours (and UK domestic hours) can work much longer days than drivers do (15 hour duty, anyone?) but rest periods are sacrosanct, and can't be sold for any amount of overtime.

Airlines (based on a couple of mates who are pilots and several colleagues who are ex cabin crew) rely very heavily on it, as does the haulage industry - again based on a couple of ex truckers I work with. There’s plenty online about how the haulage industry is short of staff and people can and do work overtime, albeit within the confines of what’s permitted.

I'd also be interested in some evidence to back up that claim of the NHS relying on overtime - based on those I know there, and what's been asked for, it's much, much less reliant than seems to be suggested - my wife's 3 shift a day unit is looking for maybe 20 shifts covered in the next three months...

£1bn+ spent on NHS overtime in just one year just on consultants’ overtime.

NHS bosses attack 'rip off' doctor overtime rates

NHS England says hospitals being forced into paying premium rates of over £200 an hour.

www.bbc.co.uk

BBC News used Freedom of Information requests to hospital trusts and data supplied by NHS England to reveal what consultants working beyond their contracted hours was costing the NHS:

• The overall overtime bill hit almost £1bn in 2023-24, up from £512m 10 years ago, albeit some of that rise is related to more consultants being employed

The BBC figures above back up those I know who work in different NHS trusts
in a couple of different roles. This is all pretty well known, and not remotely controversial? Overtime is relied on in many industries and that looks set to continue to even increase given the tight UK labour market in recent years.

It was just a question i had asked a poster who had stated that they had fought hard for sundays outside the working week and i simply asked when as i was under the impression that they have always been outside the working week - no need to get so defensive when people ask simple questions which should be easy to answer

I’m not being defensive, I’m just not sure of the relevance of discussing strikes in 1919 or whenever. We all know Sundays have been outside the working week for many decades at some locations. It is a longstanding part of current Ts and Cs, that wont be changed lightly, so what difference does it really make why or by whom it was agreed to in the first place?

 

[mikeb42]

£1bn+ spent on NHS overtime in just one year

Requires context, else it's another output from the department of meaningless statistics, along with everyone in the world having 1.999 legs.

Total UK NHS expenditure from the public purse is circa £200bn p.a.

First order approximation is >50% of this being staffing*. So £1bn is chicken feed. Suggests not that much reliance on (paid) overtime.

Especially as it will tend to be biased towards the really highly skilled(/paid) staff like consultants whose time is more easily acquired by inducing the existing ones to work more rather than hiring more of them.

Put another way, we spend £3000 on the NHS each year for each and every human in the country. £14.95 of this goes on overtime...

In passing, direct subsidy of the railway currently stands at circa £180 per capita.

*Actually more like 2/3rds it seems after some digging. Thus £1bn is a yet more trivial proportion of staffing costs.

 

[43066]

Requires context, else it's another output from the department of meaningless statistics, along with everyone in the world having 1.999 legs.

Total UK NHS expenditure from the public purse is circa £200bn p.a.

First order approximation is >50% of this being staffing. So £1bn is chicken feed. Suggests not that much reliance on (paid) overtime.

Especially as it will tend to be biased towards the really highly skilled(/paid) staff like consultants whose time is more easily acquired by inducing the existing ones to work more rather than hiring more of them.

Hardly “chicken feed” - it’s 0.5% of the entire annual budget on overtime for just one role. It’s very easy to find figures suggesting entire spend on agency plus overtime (bank) staff in the NHS is £10bn plus per year:

NHS across UK spends a ‘staggering’ £10bn on temporary staff

Exclusive: Hospitals and GP surgeries forced to rely on agency personnel and paying staff for expensive extra shifts

www.theguardian.com

Ministers are facing calls to tackle the NHS’s chronic lack of staff as figures reveal that the bill for hiring temporary frontline workers has soared to more than £10bn a year.

Hospitals and GP surgeries across the UK are paying a record £4.6bn for agency personnel and another £5.8bn for doctors and nurses on staff to do extra “bank” shifts to plug gaps in rotas.

Ie similar amounts to the total subsidy provided to the entire railway in ‘22/‘23, and substantially more than the current figure as revenue has recovered. It’s pretty laughable that people criticise the railway for relying on overtime given the scale of the above in other industries. And many consultants don’t work weekends, either, unlike railway staff who will often work two out of every three…

 

[Moonshot]

How much was offered to bring them inside? I suspect that "for the right price" comes into it here. Restructuring was accepted by both drivers and guards here by a thumping majority, but the substantial increase in pay will have been a large part of that.

I would have to go back and check the pamphlet that we got at the time....the increase in pay was staged though....I do remember that. Some did regret voting against the proposals... hindsight a wonderful thing and all that.

 

[mikeb42]

Hardly “chicken feed” - it’s 0.5% of the entire annual budget on overtime for just one role. It’s very easy to find figures suggesting entire spend on agency plus overtime (bank) staff in the NHS is £10bn plus per year.

Yep, fair enough, rookie error of not reading the exam question carefully enough.

£10bn is still only 7.5% of the staffing budget though which given the elevated cost of overtime suggests maybe 5% of hours worked.

I'll concede "Limited" rather than "trivial" for 1/20th

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

Airlines (based on a couple of mates who are pilots and several colleagues who are ex cabin crew) rely very heavily on it, as does the haulage industry - again based on a couple of ex truckers I work with. There’s plenty online about how the haulage industry is short of staff and people can and do work overtime, albeit within the confines of what’s permitted.



£1bn+ spent on NHS overtime in just one year just on consultants’ overtime.

NHS bosses attack 'rip off' doctor overtime rates

NHS England says hospitals being forced into paying premium rates of over £200 an hour.

www.bbc.co.uk

The BBC figures above back up those I know who work in different NHS trusts
in a couple of different roles. This is all pretty well known, and not remotely controversial? Overtime is relied on in many industries and that looks set to continue to even increase given the tight UK labour market in recent years.



I’m not being defensive, I’m just not sure of the relevance of discussing strikes in 1919 or whenever. We all know Sundays have been outside the working week for many decades at some locations. It is a longstanding part of current Ts and Cs, that wont be changed lightly, so what difference does it really make why or by whom it was agreed to in the first place?

I don't know anyone in the airline industry... Well, one school friend who is a hostess for a sheikh in the middle east, but that's hardly representative

Sounds like the haulage sector is a bit different north Vs south - most of the lads I know in the industry have a longer working week, but less overtime - probably due to lower wages and the ability to count it for mortgages etc.

What I find more interesting though, is the different experiences of NHS staff between up her and down there; we're always told our local trust struggles to recruit, and yet we aren't seeing that many bank nurses, we're reasonably up to speed with admin staff, midwives, etc. Where we do struggle is that once SHOs have completed their rotations, they move on and we're left with gaps overtime can't fill (i.e. there's 2 roles for a whatever, and neither are filled).

I wonder if some of these regional differences are due to things like AFC paybands (e.g. band 5 is a pretty decent wage in Cumbria, but not elsewhere?) and the suffering costs of living?

(Incidentally, £200 p/h was what a previous employer used to bill me out at. I'd love to know where the other £185 went, but I suspect it was the CEOs back pocket...)

 

[piers1234]

The railway now sadly (and I don’t blame ASLEF at all as it’s their job) is now all about keeping the railway running, I don’t need to insult peoples intelligence and further that but since the right time railway and privatisation came in it was to the detriment of the majority of grades and their conditions.
As soon as it became operationally led and not customer focused many including the passengers lost.

You should of become a driver.

Privatisation was the best thing that happened regarding driver salaries.

Well done to Aslef.

Sorry going off topic.

 

[Harpo]

grade harmonisation/political scandals are increasingly limiting TSSA's influence outside of the management/head office sphere.

TSSA influence has always been an oxymoron. Its leaders (another oxymoron?) always seemed more interested in the kudos of being seem among Labour’s higher echelons and championing obscure international causes than with its own membership.

 

[Red Rover]

You should of become a driver.

Privatisation was the best thing that happened regarding driver salaries.

Well done to Aslef.

Sorry going off topic.

That is an idea but it doesn’t disguise the reality that many grades haven’t had anywhere near the raise drivers had since privatisation, maybe nationalisation is the answer? All grades getting the same % increase a year and having the same terms and conditions is a starting point.

 

[Kite159]

That is an idea but it doesn’t disguise the reality that many grades haven’t had anywhere near the raise drivers had since privatisation, maybe nationalisation is the answer? All grades getting the same % increase a year and having the same terms and conditions is a starting point.

Good luck with that, especially as some TOCs have multiple T&C's for staff due to historic smaller operators (Greater Anglia for example). Especially those staff who get paid more because they have Sundays inside the working week compared to having Sundays either as 'enforced' or voluntary overtime

 

[Red Rover]

You should of become a driver.

Privatisation was the best thing that happened regarding driver salaries.

Well done to Aslef.

Sorry going off topic.

It’s not ASLEF per se, anyone could negotiate from a huge position of strength and leverage, no trains and the toc’s get fined so the easiest thing is to pay them the money, platform staff meanwhile are cannon fodder, solidarity has gone out the window and the it’s a race to get a drivers position, nothing wrong with that at all but what about the other positions? The railway has changed like society and in many ways not for the better.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jan 2025 ==

Good luck with that, especially as some TOCs have multiple T&C's for staff due to historic smaller operators (Greater Anglia for example). Especially those staff who get paid more because they have Sundays inside the working week compared to having Sundays either as 'enforced' or voluntary overti

Good luck with that, especially as some TOCs have multiple T&C's for staff due to historic smaller operators (Greater Anglia for example). Especially those staff who get paid more because they have Sundays inside the working week compared to having Sundays either as 'enforced' or voluntary overtime

Well, they need to change as staff, all staff not enjoying nor lucky enough to have the same as others only leads to resentment and a lack of faith in the unions to make things better.
As i wrote earlier, all of this needs to be transparent concerning Sundays and payments, why should one grade enjoy far more than another and also the right not to work it when the other has to?
How can the unions allow that discrepancy?
I guess the saying of we’re all equal but some are more equal than others springs to mind.

 

[43066]

That is an idea but it doesn’t disguise the reality that many grades haven’t had anywhere near the raise drivers had since privatisation, maybe nationalisation is the answer? All grades getting the same % increase a year and having the same terms and conditions is a starting point.

Not all jobs are paid the same, though. Pay is based on a whole range of factors including skill level required, training length, the ease (or otherwise) of recruiting replacements etc. so it doesn’t follow that everyone should get the same % increase, or should have the same Ts and Cs. Even within the driver grade there are significant differences in pay and Ts and Cs.

And how is this relevant to Sunday working per se?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jan 2025 ==

As i wrote earlier, all of this needs to be transparent concerning Sundays and payments, why should one grade enjoy far more than another and also the right not to work it when the other has to?

I don’t see what isn’t transparent about the current arrangements. Surely it’s obvious why there’s more incentive to rely on overtime in the case of staff who earn more - it’s entirely down to cost!

 

[Blackpool boy]

I’m not being defensive, I’m just not sure of the relevance of discussing strikes in 1919 or whenever. We all know Sundays have been outside the working week for many decades at some locations. It is a longstanding part of current Ts and Cs, that wont be changed lightly, so what difference does it really make why or by whom it was agreed to in the first place?

You are because youre deflecting from the question about something else and quite clearly being defensive about the issue at hand.

This is what forums are for - to ask questions and get the answer so people are more informed, turns out the 1919 thing was false anyway - but i have every right to ask a question which the original poster has still not answered but you crack on thinking everything is an attack on rail workers - and its not , as i fully support them and the moves to get Sundays inside the working week so we can finally have a full 7 day railway which is good for everyone involved

 

[Red Rover]

Not all jobs are paid the same, though. Pay is based on a whole range of factors including skill level required, training length, the ease (or otherwise) of recruiting replacements etc. so it doesn’t follow that everyone should get the same % increase, or should have the same Ts and Cs. Even within the driver grade there are significant differences in pay and Ts and Cs.

And how is this relevant to Sunday working per se?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jan 2025 ==



I don’t see what isn’t transparent about the current arrangements. Surely it’s obvious why there’s more incentive to rely on overtime in the case of staff who earn more - it’s entirely down to cost!

Sundays payments vary between grades on Sundays on some tocs, that’s not right nor fair.
In essence due to their now power since privatisation all the greater increases and terms and conditions have gone to the drivers, this isn’t transparent from a tocs point of the view as it shows inequality and what company wants to show that?
Different railway to what it was, has the pay of drivers affected and lowered others pay due to there being less in the pot of subsidy?
I wouldn’t know but it hasn’t helped it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jan 2025 ==

You are because youre deflecting from the question about something else and quite clearly being defensive about the issue at hand.

This is what forums are for - to ask questions and get the answer so people are more informed, turns out the 1919 thing was false anyway - but i have every right to ask a question which the original poster has still not answered but you crack on thinking everything is an attack on rail workers - and its not , as i fully support them and the moves to get Sundays inside the working week so we can finally have a full 7 day railway which is good for everyone involved

As a rail worker I wholly agree. We need Sunday in the working week and shouldn’t be beholden to overtime and a desire not to employ more staff.

 

[Carlisle]

also taking fatigue etc. into account which thankfully the industry is beginning to take more seriously.

There’s realistically only so much an employer can do to manage fatigue, a lot will be down to personal circumstances & lifestyle choices, myself included.

 

[Red Rover]

The employer had a responsibility to ensure their staff are as safe as they can be, working 72 hours in a week isn’t so for some grades, or 13/14 days or 17 days out of 21.
They turn a blind eye to it and hide behind legalisation that isn’t fit for purpose, people who work shifts and end have little time off have get more health issues than people who do regular shifts with regular sleep.

 

[43066]

There’s realistically only so much an employer can do to manage fatigue, a lot will be down to personal circumstances & lifestyle choices, myself included.

Have you ever worked traincrew shifts, out of interest? Rostering has a massive impact on fatigue, which the industry is waking up to belatedly. The standard cop out is to blame it on staff members, while ignoring rostering practices that make it physically impossible not to be tired at work. There’s plenty of evidence out there to show that being fatigued is as detrimental to safety and performance as being drunk.

Where I would agree with you to an extent is people choosing to work overtime even when they’re feeling tired. This is why overtime is also subject to the fatigue index, but what’s “legally” possible can still be extremely tiring.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jan 2025 ==

Sundays payments vary between grades on Sundays on some tocs, that’s not right nor fair.
In essence due to their now power since privatisation all the greater increases and terms and conditions have gone to the drivers, this isn’t transparent from a tocs point of the view as it shows inequality and what company wants to show that?
Different railway to what it was, has the pay of drivers affected and lowered others pay due to there being less in the pot of subsidy?
I wouldn’t know but it hasn’t helped it.

I think you’re looking at this the wrong way. Fairness doesn't come into it, and the RMT have surely done a good job of looking after other grades since privatisation. Are you really suggesting platform staff are now worse off than they were under BR?

If you look at equivalent skill level jobs to platform staff outside the industry you’ll find their pay and Ts and Cs are actually pretty good (clearly there are exceptions to this). These are the relevant comparators for these roles, rather than drivers and signallers.

They have to strike a difficult balance. For relatively low skilled roles than aren’t required for trains to run, there is naturally less bargaining power, and if wages rise it’ll become more attractive to simply eliminate the jobs entirely, as has already happened over much of the network.

 

[Bumbler]

That is an idea but it doesn’t disguise the reality that many grades haven’t had anywhere near the raise drivers had since privatisation, maybe nationalisation is the answer? All grades getting the same % increase a year and having the same terms and conditions is a starting point.

It does seem you have an issue with drivers pay and T&Cs not being fair compared to other grades if you’ve been on the railway since privatisation you’ve had plenty of opportunity to become a driver also you would know that in the early 2000s drivers moving from Toc to Toc made for very competitive pay increases to keep staff.The railway being 7 days a week should have all staff with Sundays inside again cost prohibitive,each grade requires different skill sets and responsibilities and will always set pay at varying levels.

 

[Red Rover]

Have you ever worked traincrew shifts, out of interest? Rostering has a massive impact on fatigue, which the industry is waking up to belatedly. The standard cop out is to blame it on staff members, while ignoring rostering practices that make it physically impossible not to be tired at work. There’s plenty of evidence out there to show that being fatigued is as detrimental to safety and performance as being drunk.

Where I would agree with you to an extent is people choosing to work overtime even when they’re feeling tired. This is why overtime is also subject to the fatigue index, but what’s “legally” possible can still be extremely tiring.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jan 2025 ==



I think you’re looking at this the wrong way. Fairness doesn't come into it, and the RMT have surely done a good job of looking after other grades since privatisation. Are you really suggesting platform staff are now worse off than they were under BR?

If you look at equivalent skill level jobs to platform staff outside the industry you’ll find their pay and Ts and Cs are actually pretty good (clearly there are exceptions to this). These are the relevant comparators for these roles, rather than drivers and signallers.

They have to strike a difficult balance. For relatively low skilled roles than aren’t required for trains to run, there is naturally less bargaining power, and if wages rise it’ll become more attractive to simply eliminate the jobs entirely, as has already happened over much of the network.

All operational is generally low skilled, to get on the footplate years ago you had to breathe to get in, now because of the salary the bar has significantly gone up but the essence of the job is the same, a rules based order, learn that and you'll be fine, same for all operations, maintenance depots apprenticeship are time served by and large as are sparks, they're on less but more skilful it could be argued but its their bargaining power, accountants who work for the railway, or legal are more skilful but they're on less.
Since privatisation and the right time railway came in drivers have leverage their position superbly, other grades apart from signallers haven't, and yes clerical staff are certainly far worse off since the mid 90's, CO3 and above was on the same money as a driver and had to pass the clerical exam to get a look in, they're on £35,000 and year and the drivers double, many have lost out but its supply and demand, there'll be a ceiling though and that ceiling is approaching.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jan 2025 ==

It does seem you have an issue with drivers pay and T&Cs not being fair compared to other grades if you’ve been on the railway since privatisation you’ve had plenty of opportunity to become a driver also you would know that in the early 2000s drivers moving from Toc to Toc made for very competitive pay increases to keep staff.The railway being 7 days a week should have all staff with Sundays inside again cost prohibitive,each grade requires different skill sets and responsibilities and will always set pay at varying levels.

I do, we all can't be drivers or want to be can we and that doesn't solve the issue does it? Its not 7 days a week though is it? That is what a lot issues are about, Sunday not being in the working week and people wanting the option of overtime.

 

[Bumbler]

All operational is generally low skilled, to get on the footplate years ago you had to breathe to get in, now because of the salary the bar has significantly gone up but the essence of the job is the same, a rules based order, learn that and you'll be fine, same for all operations, maintenance depots apprenticeship are time served by and large as are sparks, they're on less but more skilful it could be argued but its their bargaining power, accountants who work for the railway, or legal are more skilful but they're on less.
Since privatisation and the right time railway came in drivers have leverage their position superbly, other grades apart from signallers haven't, and yes clerical staff are certainly far worse off since the mid 90's, CO3 and above was on the same money as a driver and had to pass the clerical exam to get a look in, they're on £35,000 and year and the drivers double, many have lost out but its supply and demand, there'll be a ceiling though and that ceiling is approaching.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jan 2025 ==


I do, we all can't be drivers or want to be can we and that doesn't solve the issue does it? It’s not 7 days a week though is it? That is what a lot issues are about, Sunday not being in the working week and people wanting the option of overtime.

All operational is generally low skilled, to get on the footplate years ago you had to breathe to get in, now because of the salary the bar has significantly gone up but the essence of the job is the same, a rules based order, learn that and you'll be fine, same for all operations, maintenance depots apprenticeship are time served by and large as are sparks, they're on less but more skilful it could be argued but its their bargaining power, accountants who work for the railway, or legal are more skilful but they're on less.
Since privatisation and the right time railway came in drivers have leverage their position superbly, other grades apart from signallers haven't, and yes clerical staff are certainly far worse off since the mid 90's, CO3 and above was on the same money as a driver and had to pass the clerical exam to get a look in, they're on £35,000 and year and the drivers double, many have lost out but its supply and demand, there'll be a ceiling though and that ceiling is approaching.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jan 2025 ==


I do, we all can't be drivers or want to be can we and that doesn't solve the issue does it? Its not 7 days a week though is it? That is what a lot issues are about, Sunday not being in the working week and people wanting the option of overtime.

Jealousy

All operational is generally low skilled, to get on the footplate years ago you had to breathe to get in, now because of the salary the bar has significantly gone up but the essence of the job is the same, a rules based order, learn that and you'll be fine, same for all operations, maintenance depots apprenticeship are time served by and large as are sparks, they're on less but more skilful it could be argued but its their bargaining power, accountants who work for the railway, or legal are more skilful but they're on less.
Since privatisation and the right time railway came in drivers have leverage their position superbly, other grades apart from signallers haven't, and yes clerical staff are certainly far worse off since the mid 90's, CO3 and above was on the same money as a driver and had to pass the clerical exam to get a look in, they're on £35,000 and year and the drivers double, many have lost out but its supply and demand, there'll be a ceiling though and that ceiling is approaching.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jan 2025 ==


I do, we all can't be drivers or want to be can we and that doesn't solve the issue does it? Its not 7 days a week though is it? That is what a lot issues are about, Sunday not being in the working week and people wanting the option of overtime.

It’s rather insulting to say all ops staff are low skilled and to be so dismissive of entering the drivers grade before privatisation, you know that everything is done by negotiation Aslef over the years has negotiated better had more solidarity within its specific grade and on many occasions had the RMT ride it’s coattails.i do agree strongly that Sundays should be inside it Benefits everyone in a 7 day a week industry,comparing what grade got what nearly 30 years ago is clearly not relevant job roles and responsibilities have changed.what you have said does smack of jealousy.

 

[Red Rover]

Jealousy

It’s rather insulting to say all ops staff are low skilled and to be so dismissive of entering the drivers grade before privatisation, you know that everything is done by negotiation Aslef over the years has negotiated better had more solidarity within its specific grade and on many occasions had the RMT ride it’s coattails.i do agree strongly that Sundays should be inside it Benefits everyone in a 7 day a week industry,comparing what grade got what nearly 30 years ago is clearly not relevant job roles and responsibilities have changed.what you have said does smack of jealousy.

It doesn't smack of jealousy, it is jealousy, I would be lying if I wasn't and so would many others, of course in comparison to time served its low skilled, what qualifications do you need to get on the railway and progress? That is not undermining in anyway the effort and difficulty in getting a drivers job, it is pointing out a fact that that its not timed served nor university degrees are needed, it takes years to understand the intricate ways of railway jobs, I've done a few but they've no bargaining power like drivers, the amount of training needed keeps their wages artificially high compared even to others in Europe, I congratulate them for this and don't begrudge them their wages at all, I wish we were all on those but I understand we're not, toc's would only have drivers as full time employees if they could get away with it.
I have to correct you there and say its not ASLEF's negotiating skills but a cost and time of training drivers thats also driven their spectacular rise in salary over the years, supply and demand and the toc's have tightened the noose around their very own necks by doing so, of course ASLEF kept quiet as drivers could choose their overtime and conditions.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jan 2025 ==

I've also always wondered why before privatisation didn't ASLEF negotiate better pay, terms and conditions for drivers?

 

[dk1]

I've also always wondered why before privatisation didn't ASLEF negotiate better pay, terms and conditions for drivers?

The positive thing about privatisation was that it created competition between TOCs to recruit and retain drivers. Best thing I ever did was transferring into that grade in 1998.

 

[Red Rover]

The positive thing about privatisation was that it created competition between TOCs to recruit and retain drivers. Best thing I ever did was transferring into that grade in 1998.

Yes, I get that but that changed the mantra from a socialist railway to a capitalist one, I wonder what the union hierarchy make of that? Well I guess they're a business after all so a convenient alliance of silence.

 

[dk1]

Yes, I get that but that changed the mantra from a socialist railway to a capitalist one, I wonder what the union hierarchy make of that? Well I guess they're a business after all so a convenient alliance of silence.

Just like the church, it’s a business as you say. Things have changed. The conversation in the messroom these days is often about our share holdings and investments

 

[Bumbler]

in

30 years of pay increases T&Cs negotiated by Aslef suggest it’s not just supply and demand but many many changes to the job role of a driver but let’s leave that there ,Sunday working should of been sorted properly in 1996 across all prospective Tocs it wasn’t ,the Dft will need to do some serious thinking, it really will come down to how much revenue is brought in compared to the cost of providing all staff that are required to run a Sunday timetable are definitely rostered to work,how many Tocs currently don’t have Sundays inside the working week?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jan 2025 ==

Yes, I get that but that changed the mantra from a socialist railway to a capitalist one, I wonder what the union hierarchy make of that? Well I guess they're a business after all so a convenient alliance of silence.

That makes no difference does it ,the railway started as a capitalist venture but again a very long time ago .

 

[Red Rover]

30 years of pay increases T&Cs negotiated by Aslef suggest it’s not just supply and demand but many many changes to the job role of a driver but let’s leave that there ,Sunday working should of been sorted properly in 1996 across all prospective Tocs it wasn’t ,the Dft will need to do some serious thinking, it really will come down to how much revenue is brought in compared to the cost of providing all staff that are required to run a Sunday timetable are definitely rostered to work,how many Tocs currently don’t have Sundays inside the working week?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Jan 2025 ==


That makes no difference does it ,the railway started as a capitalist venture but again a very long time ago .

True, one thing I think we can agree on is a storm is coming.

 

[43066]

All operational is generally low skilled, to get on the footplate years ago you had to breathe to get in, now because of the salary the bar has significantly gone up but the essence of the job is the same, a rules based order, learn that and you'll be fine, same for all operations, maintenance depots apprenticeship are time served by and large as are sparks, they're on less but more skilful it could be argued but its their bargaining power, accountants who work for the railway, or legal are more skilful but they're on less.

I think this is just your own prejudice to be honest. All operational roles are not equal, and I’m not sure you can really describe “the essence of the job” of being a driver when you’ve never actually done it. Drivers take as long and cost about as much to train as airline pilots, and the role has professionalised to a large extent. Platform staff can be trained up within a few days, and can be dispensed with altogether in many situations. So it’s no wonder they don’t have the same bargaining power. Sorry, but that’s the reality. Being resentful of drivers won’t change it.

It doesn't smack of jealousy, it is jealousy, I would be lying if I wasn't

Thanks for confirming. I suspected as much, because you do seem determined to keep steering the thread back to drivers versus everyone else. That seems a little ironic for someone who has also complained about a lack of solidarity between grades(!)

it is pointing out a fact that that its not timed served nor university degrees are needed, it takes years to understand the intricate ways of railway jobs,

The fact a university degree isn’t needed is irrelevant (quite a few of us have one, though). Earlier you were saying most operational roles are low skilled, now you’re arguing it takes years to understand them.

Since privatisation and the right time railway came in drivers have leverage their position superbly, other grades apart from signallers haven't, and yes clerical staff are certainly far worse off since the mid 90's, CO3 and above was on the same money as a driver and had to pass the clerical exam to get a look in, they're on £35,000 and year and the drivers double, many have lost out but its supply and demand, there'll be a ceiling though and that ceiling is approaching.

They may be worse off relative to drivers/signallers, but they doesn’t necessarily mean they’re worse off than they were under BR. There also isn’t a ceiling, there’s merely a negotiation to be had, which will continue as long as the roles remain in existence.

True, one thing I think we can agree on is a storm is coming.

Another one!?