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That's a big if. Committed Sundays are fine to an extent but Sundays inside will not be easily added to some TOCs, unless it doesn't increase number of weekends days worked and accounts for the increased pay rate of Sundays currently.
No I don't think so. Staff fought for these conditions years ago and they wont be sold for buttons. Knowing you're off own a Sunday 6 months in advance is good so you know you can go out on a Saturday and not have to worry about working a Sunday or have to put in a lieu day and sweat about getting it or not.
I seem to recall there were quite a few issues with it, for various reasons. @bramling can probably say more.
AIUI LU T-ops are much quicker to train the national rail drivers (more akin to guards), so the concerns around training school capacity being wasted won’t apply to the same extent.
Sundays in the week absolutely does. Committed Sundays cannot be booked off as annual leave, though, hence why they’re often viewed as the worst of all worlds.
Staff traditionally reserve right not to work a Sunday unless it's 'booked', and even then if they don't turn up for their shift theres not much the companies can do as its classed as 'overtime' and you cant be forced to work overtime. I know not all TOCs have Sundays outside the working week, but those that do will find it very difficult to incorporate them into the working without having to pay a premium to the grades involved. These are years old conditions that wont be sold easily - if at all.
I started as a driver in 2003 at ScotRail and my contract states I'm required to work booked Sundays as part of that contract.Not sure how enforceable it is, but it's definitely there. We're currently on 18 per year on my roster so roughly 1 in 3. Some depots are nearer 1 in 2.
Sundays in the week absolutely does. Committed Sundays cannot be booked off as annual leave, though, hence why they’re often viewed as the worst of all worlds.
Not as indivdual days no. But here Sundays at the start and end of annual leave blocks are included so even if you have a booked Sunday you wont be rostered if you are going onto or coming off annual leave. I though that was the same everywhere?
Well yes... Just like working a booked Saturday or any other day.
But you can also book it as A/L, get paid for it accordingly, pensionable etc. I can understand people who complain about committed or outside the working week. But we're nearly a quarter of the way into the 21st century and for Sunday to be optional for many staff at public transport operators in the railway is poor and you can understand why the public think it is ridiculous. Sunday needs to be in the working week and paid for accordingly.
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Sundays in the week absolutely does. Committed Sundays cannot be booked off as annual leave, though, hence why they’re often viewed as the worst of all worlds.
Staff would still get a day off if Sunday was included in the working week and you can get things done on the other day off that you might not be able to on Sunday. There's bigger hills to die on than this old-fashioned view of Sundays.
Few on the staff side are opposing "Sundays inside". RMT and ASLEF have agreed deals for this at various TOCs. The DfT don't want Sundays inside because it costs more money to employ seven days' worth of staff instead of stretching six days' worth of staff over seven.
Yes, but it is not deemed 'committed' for some reason, maybe because if they book you off on a Sunday that you are rostered to work, you dont get paid.
No I don't think so. Staff fought for these conditions years ago and they wont be sold for buttons. Knowing you're off own a Sunday 6 months in advance is good so you know you can go out on a Saturday and not have to worry about working a Sunday or have to put in a lieu day and sweat about getting it or not.
I do not think that the staff 'fought' for these conditions years ago per se. I believe that this situation came about in c1919 and a nationwide railway strike, one of the demands was that staff should get at least one day off per week, which was not the practice at the time. Faced with the prospect of an immediate demand for additional staff to be able to construct the roster in this manner, a 'fudge' was agreed to put Sundays outside of the working week and make any work on this day voluntary. Many lines had no Sunday service and those that did had only infrequent services. Freight traffic on Sundays, such that it was, was concentrated on Monday to Saturday as much as possible. With railway pay being relatively low at the time, there was no problem with covering the available Sunday work. Fast forward to now, where railway pay is relatively higher (at least in some grades) , plus many more trains being operated, and this arrangement is no longer practicable.
Few on the staff side are opposing "Sundays inside". RMT and ASLEF have agreed deals for this at various TOCs. The DfT don't want Sundays inside because it costs more money to employ seven days' worth of staff instead of stretching six days' worth of staff over seven.
"You must work your rostered overtime unless cover is found" is exactly what committed Sundays is.
If you have committed Sundays, and they book you off on such a Sunday they will pay you, as it is their choice for you not to come to work, however with NR Sig rosters, they can book you 'off' (on any Sunday) and you have no recourse, as Sundays are not guaranteed, it is however quite rare, but not unknown
I think the time has come when this needs to change. The new world has less daily commuting, and more weekend leisure (and other non-work related) travel by rail.
Rail workers don't ultimately want to be like the British car industry workers of the 70's and collapse the industry in on itself.
If you have committed Sundays, and they book you off on such a Sunday they will pay you, as it is their choice for you not to come to work, however with NR Sig rosters, they can book you 'off' (on any Sunday) and you have no recourse, as Sundays are not guaranteed, it is however quite rare, but not unknown
That is exactly what could happen at a TOC I worked at. If there were less trains due to engineering or whatever, they just cancelled Sunday jobs and you didn't come in and didn't get paid.
This is why the pay for committed Sunday work generally isn't considered by banks for mortgage purposes etc as the income isn't guaranteed.
That is exactly what could happen at a TOC I worked at. If there were less trains due to engineering or whatever, they just cancelled Sunday jobs and you didn't come in and didn't get paid.
This is why the pay for committed Sunday work generally isn't considered by banks for mortgage purposes etc as the income isn't guaranteed.
They've tried to do that here, especially when ASLEF strike. It's always corrected at local level otherwise staff put claims in and always win.
All jobs need covering on all days.
My mortgage company were more than happy to add my Sundays into my deal as it was shown I do at least 1 booked Sunday per month. Committed Sundays ARE guaranteed, well they are here. If you weren't rostered you'd claim and get paid.
I started as a driver in 2003 at ScotRail and my contract states I'm required to work booked Sundays as part of that contract.Not sure how enforceable it is, but it's definitely there. We're currently on 18 per year on my roster so roughly 1 in 3. Some depots are nearer 1 in 2.
Merely a continuation of the long established practice of one section of the railway blaming another be it Dft, Network Rail, Government Ministers, Contractors, TOC management etc etc etc.
I sincerely hope GBR can eventually foster a new culture.
But we're nearly a quarter of the way into the 21st century and for Sunday to be optional for many staff at public transport operators in the railway is poor and you can understand why the public think it is ridiculous.
I’m not sure why being in 2024 is relevant when alternative being offered still appears to be committed Sundays, ie enforced overtime. Personally, if my Sundays were outside, I’d want to resist committed Sundays at pretty much all costs for all the reasons discussed previously.
With railway pay being relatively low at the time, there was no problem with covering the available Sunday work. Fast forward to now, where railway pay is relatively higher (at least in some grades) , plus many more trains being operated, and this arrangement is no longer practicable.
If it’s “no longer practicable”, why are some TOCs still recruiting on that basis, and why doesn’t the DfT either improve incentives for volunteers, or negotiate to bring Sundays inside the week?
If you have committed Sundays, and they book you off on such a Sunday they will pay you, as it is their choice for you not to come to work, however with NR Sig rosters, they can book you 'off' (on any Sunday) and you have no recourse, as Sundays are not guaranteed, it is however quite rare, but not unknown
So you can be required to come in but if they don’t need you they simply don’t use you that weekend when it suits them. That’s a terrible arrangement from the staff side, more like a zero hours contract. I’m amazed the RMT let that go tbh.
So you can be required to come in but if they don’t need you they simply don’t related you that weekend when it suits them. That’s a terrible arrangement from the staff side, more like a zero hours contract. I’m amazed the RMT let that go tbh.
That’ll likely be a continuation of what was largely universally accepted practice in BR times when double time payed Sundays were always oversubscribed .
That’ll likely be a continuation of what was largely universally accepted practice in BR times when double time payed Sundays were always oversubscribed .
On Network Rail (Signallers) there is, Sunday is outside the working week, but appears on the roster, you can make yourself N/A, but, if there is no cover, you have to come to work.
Same at my ToC depot and other depots nearby unless you are an HSS driver. My contract "commits" me to one Sunday in 3. What really grates is not "committing" to the Sunday but sitting spare for more than half of them as there is rarely uncovered Sunday work.
That’ll likely be a continuation of what was largely universally accepted practice in BR times when double time payed Sundays were always oversubscribed .
Double time was payable in BR days when working a Rest Day on a Saturday night into Sunday - any time after midnight into Sunday was double time.
I recall it was possible to get double time on Good Friday, but remember the criteria.
From recollection Sundays were voluntary, but some grades/positions (clerical) were committed (ie you had to find cover if you didn’t want to work) (although this may have been local rostering agreements).
If it’s “no longer practicable”, why are some TOCs still recruiting on that basis, and why doesn’t the DfT either improve incentives for volunteers, or negotiate to bring Sundays inside the week?
'no longer practicable' in the sense of providing a reliable Sunday train service at 2024 service levels.
Not being employed by the DfT in the right section and at a high enough level, I can only hazard guesses as answers to your questions:
'some TOCs still recruiting on that basis' - in the absence of agreement to recruit on any other basis, to avoid creating further shortages into the future whilst waiting for such agreement;
'improve incentives for volunteers' - too expensive; cultivating a culture of payoffs; increased payments making agreement for Sunday working within the week more difficult in the future;
'negotiate to bring Sundays inside the week' - suspect that is quite an undertaking to get right and the strategy is probably being worked on in the background???
So you can be required to come in but if they don’t need you they simply don’t use you that weekend when it suits them. That’s a terrible arrangement from the staff side, more like a zero hours contract. I’m amazed the RMT let that go tbh.
It was the RMT that wanted it kept, there was a vote during a pay deal a few years ago, the Union recommended we stayed with Sunday outside the working week, as the Railway was not offering enough in 'compensation' for loss of Sunday rate.
Fine, but then these threads will go on forever. Until it happens for 100% of grades at 100% of companies, this problem will arise at one point or another. Obviously you get to a threshold where the impact is minimal.
'some TOCs still recruiting on that basis' - in the absence of agreement to recruit on any other basis, to avoid creating further shortages into the future whilst waiting for such agreement;
improve incentives for volunteers' - too expensive; cultivating a culture of payoffs; increased payments making agreement for Sunday working within the week more difficult in the future;
It’s difficult to see how improving incentives for volunteers can really be “too expensive” in light of the cost of mass cancellations, providing replacement buses etc. In particular it was suggested on here that the recent offer to Northern TMs would likely have been acceptable in cash terms, if not for the strings attached (committed Sundays again), so clearly the issue isn’t the financial cost, and is something more ideological. Meanwhile the DfT has been happy to sit back and watch the service collapse in the run up to Xmas.
It’s entirely reasonable and in line with many other industries that, having chosen a staffing model that relies heavily on overtime, that incentives (time and an half, double time etc.) are provided to generate enough coverage. That naturally has a cost attached, but it’s simple economic reality - and of course it’s still cheaper than employing a full complement of staff!
negotiate to bring Sundays inside the week' - suspect that is quite an undertaking to get right and the strategy is probably being worked on in the background???
Again, this is something that has been achieved elsewhere, along the lines I’ve suggested above, for a commercially acceptable cost. As for the solution being worked on in the background, I doubt that when we read that the DfT isn’t even aware of the working arrangements at the various different TOCs.
The whole picture is basically an inconsistent mess, with no strategy at all, which is damaging to both the industry and the wider economy.
It was the RMT that wanted it kept, there was a vote during a pay deal a few years ago, the Union recommended we stayed with Sunday outside the working week, as the Railway was not offering enough in 'compensation' for loss of Sunday rate.
I think this goes back to difference of the definition of Sundays outside I’m using versus what you’re describing (that I would consider to be committed Sundays). I’m sure many staff with their Sundays currently outside would be open to bringing them inside, but wouldn’t ever want the arrangement you describe above.
Fine, but then these threads will go on forever. Until it happens for 100% of grades at 100% of companies, this problem will arise at one point or another. Obviously you get to a threshold where the impact is minimal.
Very true! Sadly I can’t see any change until there’s a real effort to bring Sundays inside across the board, or increase incentives to a competitive level.
Things will get easier in the new year as the effect of the back pay recedes.
Until Sunday is part of the working week and 2 days off are together as opposed to a random day and then possibly a Sunday off if you’re lucky then nothing will change, the Unions and management have had this elephant in the room for years or allowing people who want to work themselves to death to dictate to staff who only want to work their basic salaried hours, this shouldn’t be allowed to continue.
This draconian practice on top of working unsociable hours is Victorian to say the least yet the union allowed this to remain as opposed to fighting for a liveable basic week, any socialist or union person worth their salt would know the basic mantra of the union is better hours and conditions, not guarantees of overtime.
I reject the phrase that the railway has always run on overtime, that’s convenient for the people that benefit from the status quo and also disingenuous, the unions need to present the issues, the costs involved to the government of a 7 day week roster for all staff.
It can be done it’s just the railway has always been backward in moving forward.
I can think of some rosters that the unions have agreed to that are so Dickensian that Scrooge would stop his employees working them.
All grades deserve better and so do the public.
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That’ll likely be a continuation of what was largely universally accepted practice in BR times when double time payed Sundays were always oversubscribed .
It was the RMT that wanted it kept, there was a vote during a pay deal a few years ago, the Union recommended we stayed with Sunday outside the working week, as the Railway was not offering enough in 'compensation' for loss of Sunday rate.
The RMT allowed flat rate Sundays to be come in at some toc’s on some grades for an overall higher basic pay, now the other tocs have largely caught up so that flat rate became moot.
The RMT and others are complicit in this. They need to come out and categorically state they’re striving for more staff, a better work life balance and a 7 day week railway, sitting on the fence is helping no one apart from the people who want to live at their place of work, I’ve no issue with that but it shouldn’t be to the detriment of people who want a life.
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