Speculation on Class 185 future

[387star]

Portsmouth to cardiff and taunton seems glaringly obvious ?

Or put in gangways and run them on waterloo to exeters they are desiros after all and south west trains have recently converted 460s...

 

[southern442]

Is there ANY chance at all of them being converted to EMU's, like what they wanted to do with the voyagers? Then they could make themselves useful in a lot more places.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

They (22) haven't currently got a home after March 2020. They weren't allowed to be bid into Northern so weren't in their plans.

But they will operate for Northern, at least in the short term, on the routes transferred from TPE (Manchester-Blackpool/Barrow/Windermere).
After Northern's new trains arrive/electrification, who knows.

 

[MCR247]

Is there ANY chance at all of them being converted to EMU's, like what they wanted to do with the voyagers? Then they could make themselves useful in a lot more places.

No, they aren't DEMUs like 22xs

 

[superkev]

With around 750bhp a car somewhere hilly like the S and C or Scotland would be appropriate.
K

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Plenty of upcoming franchise competitions would likely be grateful for modern, capable DMU stock - is there a weight restriction with the 185s that might prohibit their use in other areas? I seem to recall they are quite heavy relative to other DMUs.

They can't use Sprinter differentials so speed is restricted in certain areas. This includes between Selby and Hull, but their superior acceleration means there's no penalty as a result. However this might not be a solution for all routes: I'd be surprised if the extra power was sufficient to counteract the reduced speeds over a distance as long as Nottingham to Norwich for example. For me, the obvious place for them would be Manchester to Wales services as they could continue to be based at Ardwick. Failing that, let TPE keep the whole fleet so that every service can be 6-car throughout. Would need some platforms extending but once it's done they won't need doing again!

 

[andyb2706]

I was reading the other day that it is looking likely to be the AT300 for the new fleet of trains but talks are still ongoing. To be honest it is a no brainer, especially when they say it is a 5 car 125mph train with the option of electric and bi-mode....hmm, who do we know to be producing these right now?

Also look at the parent company of TPE and the parent company of GWR who already have their own order for AT300's and again it is a no brainer to tag onto that order.

Also a wild and crazy idea here. The electrification of the GWML has apparently fallen back again and GWR are not happy because timetables have already been produced to run bi-mode trains and a single diesel mode would not maintain the diagrams. Could this mean a group of trains sat around doing nothing? Why not retain the HST's for the period of time until electrification is complete and deliver the early AT300's to TPE first where thy could be put into service as soon as available and the increase in capacity is sorely needed.

I know I am living in cloud cuckoo land but it is a dream I have

 

[Brian Aylott]

Also a wild and crazy idea here. The electrification of the GWML has apparently fallen back again and GWR are not happy because timetables have already been produced to run bi-mode trains and a single diesel mode would not maintain the diagrams. Could this mean a group of trains sat around doing nothing? Why not retain the HST's for the period of time until electrification is complete and deliver the early AT300's to TPE first where thy could be put into service as soon as available and the increase in capacity is sorely needed.

I know I am living in cloud cuckoo land but it is a dream I have

I am sorry but I can't understand what you are saying
Bi-modes are due to be delivered to work on GWR's electrified lines and non electrified lines which is what they were designed to do
What you want is for them to instead be delivered to work on TPE's electrified and non electrified lines
What is the difference?
Anyhow the Angel HSTs' release cannot be delayed for they must go to the Scotrail Franchise on time
Brian

 

[43074]

I am sorry but I can't understand what you are saying
Bi-modes are due to be delivered to work on GWR's electrified lines and non electrified lines which is what they were designed to do
What you want is for them to instead be delivered to work on TPE's electrified and non electrified lines
What is the difference?

I think the point andyb2706 was making was that the trains TPE are expected to order are likely to be very similar - if not identical - to the bi-mode sets ordered by GWR for their services, hence they wouldn't look out of place on TPE services in the interim. However, andyb2706 misses the point that bi-mode sets could be used on GWR services before the electrification is complete, just in diesel mode. The problem of ''trains sitting around doing nothing'' is for the electric only sets - not only 801s but also 365s and 387s.

Anyhow the Angel HSTs' release cannot be delayed for they must go to the Scotrail Franchise on time
Brian

The 165 and 166 displacement is what people are worrying about, hence the trials of short (4 and 5 car) HSTs on Cardiff - Plymouth workings recently, because the delayed transfer of 165s to the West will delay the (rumoured) transfer of 150/1s to Northern, who will need extra trains for the December 2017 timetable improvements.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Failing that, let TPE keep the whole fleet so that every service can be 6-car throughout. Would need some platforms extending but once it's done other won't need doing again!

First will have their business plan and will not be interested/able to afford to lease the whole fleet.
What happens to the spare ones is not their problem.
We'll see if Wales & Borders are interested, but the class 185 limitations will apply - 3-car will be too small and 6-car too big.
Unlike class 175s, speeds between Ludlow and Crewe will also be affected by the speed differentials - eg Shrewsbury-Crewe would be 70mph rather than 90mph.

 

[Class 170101]

I thought it was already established that some of the 185s were staying on routes they already operate on that are transferring to Northern namely Barrow, Windermere, Blackpool to Manchester Airport.

TPE keeping the remaining 185s for Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport services.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

First will have their business plan and will not be interested/able to afford to lease the whole fleet.
What happens to the spare ones is not their problem.
We'll see if Wales & Borders are interested, but the class 185 limitations will apply - 3-car will be too small and 6-car too big.
Unlike class 175s, speeds between Ludlow and Crewe will also be affected by the speed differentials - eg Shrewsbury-Crewe would be 70mph rather than 90mph.

Of course, finances are always the deciding factor. However given my experience in the last hour I'll reiterate this suggestion as a single 185 has just left pax behind at Dewsbury due to overcrowding. I managed to get on but it was pretty tight, and one lady seemed quite distressed at the conditions. She'd had to stand from York to at least Huddersfield where I got off and was travelling to Piccadilly for a connection to somewhere in Cheshire (can't remember where). If the current government is serious about this "Northern Powerhouse" malarkey they should agree to fund TPE retaining the whole 185 fleet so that services can have adequate capacity. As 185s have unit deselect, there's no reason that the current planned platform extensions need to be increased (though with only a few months to go before TPE start serving Slaithwaite and Deighton, they need to get a wiggle on even for single 185s).

 

[Class 170101]

As 185s have unit deselect, there's no reason that the current planned platform extensions need to be increased (though with only a few months to go before TPE start serving Slaithwaite and Deighton, they need to get a wiggle on even for single 185s).

Unit deslect won't help here. Deselecting a three car train means no doors open. You need Selective Door Opening (SDO) for these stations.

 

[northwichcat]

I thought it was already established that some of the 185s were staying on routes they already operate on that are transferring to Northern namely Barrow, Windermere, Blackpool to Manchester Airport.

TPE keeping the remaining 185s for Cleethorpes to Manchester Airport services.

Around 3 units are expected to be subleased by Northern for the current TPE NW routes but only until the new CAF trains are delivered which will operate all Northern Connect services in the North West and Yorkshire.

Manchester to Hull and the additional Manchester to Leeds TPE service will also retain 185s.

22 x 185s will be released and have no confirmed future use as yet.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Unit deslect won't help here. Deselecting a three car train means no doors open. You need Selective Door Opening (SDO) for these stations.

I was talking about unit deselect for 6-car trains. Current plans are for intermediate stations between Manchester and Leeds to be extended to take 3x23m trains so that TPE semi-fasts can call. With my proposal for most or all services to be 6-car, unit deselect would be fine as long as everyone is informed which part of the train to be in for the stations concerned. The alternative is all semi-fasts being single 185s which means overcrowding to the extent seen earlier will become even more commonplace than it is currently.

 

[fowler9]

Well they definitely have selective door opening. Is this different from Unit Deselect?

 

[Philip]

I was talking about unit deselect for 6-car trains. Current plans are for intermediate stations between Manchester and Leeds to be extended to take 3x23m trains so that TPE semi-fasts can call. With my proposal for most or all services to be 6-car, unit deselect would be fine as long as everyone is informed which part of the train to be in for the stations concerned. The alternative is all semi-fasts being single 185s which means overcrowding to the extent seen earlier will become even more commonplace than it is currently.

But all other North TPE trains will be formed of 5 carriages, a big improvement on currently, so that ought to help with over crowding on that route.

South TPE has to be the priority for doubling up 185s as it's one of only two fast trains per hour between Manchester and Sheffield. There will be enough 185s to double up every service on South TPE, there will also be enough to double up some North TPE semi-fasts, but not all of them. With some clever diagramming I bet you could use three extra 185s on the North route purely for strengthening purposes and end up doubling up all of the main peak time trains heading east from Manchester and West from Leeds in the evening (ie. 17:00-18:00) and vice versa for the morning.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just regarding 185s losing time compared to 175s on the Crewe-Shewsbury line because of not running at Sprinter speeds..would the superior acceleration of 185s not make up most of the time lost?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unit deslect won't help here. Deselecting a three car train means no doors open. You need Selective Door Opening (SDO) for these stations.

Or a single door opened locally, this is what they do at (I think) Arnside.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

But all other North TPE trains will be formed of 5 carriages, a big improvement on currently, so that ought to help with over crowding on that route.

South TPE has to be the priority for doubling up 185s as it's one of only two fast trains per hour between Manchester and Sheffield. There will be enough 185s to double up every service on South TPE, there will also be enough to double up some North TPE semi-fasts, but not all of them. With some clever diagramming I bet you could use three extra 185s on the North route purely for strengthening purposes and end up doubling up all of the main peak time trains heading east from Manchester and West from Leeds in the evening (ie. 17:00-18:00) and vice versa for the morning.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just regarding 185s losing time compared to 175s on the Crewe-Shewsbury line because of not running at Sprinter speeds..would the superior acceleration of 185s not make up most of the time lost?

The issue is primarily with the semi-fasts. What's essentially going to happen is that each 185 will have the equivalent of a 3-car Pacer worth of extra passengers in the peak, with probably half that off-peak, between Leeds and Manchester. The new 5-car stock will be running 3 of the 5 hourly services of which only one will call at Dewsbury, it may well take some of the traffic from the slower services but realistically it will barely scratch the surface with passenger numbers still being very much on an upward trend.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Well they definitely have selective door opening. Is this different from Unit Deselect?

185's have UDB - Unit Door Blocking. Operated in the cab it means the doors will not energise behind that cab. Its not selective door as such as its whole unit only. The GOP controls in a UDB'd unit can however still be used as a local door and will still operate the doors in the non UDB active units.

The system glitches however if the driver changes ends and keys in, when the unit formation is acknowledged and UDB is active, the UDB also reverses!

 

[Philip]

The issue is primarily with the semi-fasts. What's essentially going to happen is that each 185 will have the equivalent of a 3-car Pacer worth of extra passengers in the peak, with probably half that off-peak, between Leeds and Manchester. The new 5-car stock will be running 3 of the 5 hourly services of which only one will call at Dewsbury, it may well take some of the traffic from the slower services but realistically it will barely scratch the surface with passenger numbers still being very much on an upward trend.

Like I say though, if TPE retain 29 185s; then assuming 4 are kept aside for maintenance; 14 to cover all South TPE diagrams as doubled up services; and 8 to cover all of the North TPE semi-fasts then it'd leave 3 extra to strengthen these semi-fasts which would go a long way to providing extra capacity on most/all of these semi-fast services.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Could they be fitted with the SDO system that SWTs have on their 444s/450s?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Like I say though, if TPE retain 29 185s; then assuming 4 are kept aside for maintenance; 14 to cover all South TPE diagrams as doubled up services; and 8 to cover all of the North TPE semi-fasts then it'd leave 3 extra to strengthen these semi-fasts which would go a long way to providing extra capacity on most/all of these semi-fast services.

You're right, but this whole thread is full of suggestions for where the remaining 185s could go, all with issues over linespeeds or a drop in capacity per carriage based on what currently runs those services. The 185s were designed the way they are precisely to cope with the gradients and intensive service on North TPE, where the only weight issues are between Selby and Hull and those restrictions are minor enough that the better acceleration is enough to negate them...

So why not keep them there, so that everyone who wishes to travel can actually fit? For years demand has outstripped capacity on the route and this is only going to get worse, so why not try to solve that problem? Rather than paring everything down to the bare-bones (which has worked SO well for the last 20 years!) it's about time we had a bit of "gold plating" on the route!

Come on, Gideon... Put your money where your mouth is on the so-called Northern Powerhouse!

 

[Philip]

You're right, but this whole thread is full of suggestions for where the remaining 185s could go, all with issues over linespeeds or a drop in capacity per carriage based on what currently runs those services. The 185s were designed the way they are precisely to cope with the gradients and intensive service on North TPE, where the only weight issues are between Selby and Hull and those restrictions are minor enough that the better acceleration is enough to negate them...

So why not keep them there, so that everyone who wishes to travel can actually fit? For years demand has outstripped capacity on the route and this is only going to get worse, so why not try to solve that problem? Rather than paring everything down to the bare-bones (which has worked SO well for the last 20 years!) it's about time we had a bit of "gold plating" on the route!

Come on, Gideon... Put your money where your mouth is on the so-called Northern Powerhouse!

There has to be compromise though - there simply isn't enough rolling stock nationwide to strengthen every peak time service running. The extra 22 185s that FTPE won't be keeping could be put to good use elsewhere and provide additional capacity, especially if the first class bit is ripped out to provide a solid standard 3-car train. Pretty sure TPE will have done the maths and think that 29 185s will be sufficient for South TPE and the North semi-fasts.

I'm more unsure about only 44 of the new trains being ordered, considering these will have to cover all North fast services and the West Coast Scottish services (with additional Liverpool services to come). Considering around 5-6 will need to be kept aside for maintenance, covering all diagrams with 38 units seems a bit tight, especially given how busy the Scottish services are now, with the possibility some may need strengthening to 10 cars.

 

[northwichcat]

There has to be compromise though - there simply isn't enough rolling stock nationwide to strengthen every peak time service running. The extra 22 185s that FTPE won't be keeping could be put to good use elsewhere and provide additional capacity, especially if the first class bit is ripped out to provide a solid standard 3-car train. Pretty sure TPE will have done the maths and think that 29 185s will be sufficient for South TPE and the North semi-fasts.

I'm more unsure about only 44 of the new trains being ordered, considering these will have to cover all North fast services and the West Coast Scottish services (with additional Liverpool services to come). Considering around 5-6 will need to be kept aside for maintenance, covering all diagrams with 38 units seems a bit tight, especially given how busy the Scottish services are now, with the possibility some may need strengthening to 10 cars.

As I've posted in one of the threads previously a TPE director has said 6 car operations will be introduced between Manchester and Sheffield.

I agree 12 x 5 car trains seems a bit insufficient for West Coast Scottish services especially when you consider that stock will have to cover a limited Liverpool-Glasgow service as well.

 

[Philip]

As I've posted in one of the threads previously a TPE director has said 6 car operations will be introduced between Manchester and Sheffield.

I agree 12 x 5 car trains seems a bit insufficient for West Coast Scottish services especially when you consider that stock will have to cover a limited Liverpool-Glasgow service as well.

Only between Manchester and Sheffield or was it not stated whether it would cover the whole route?

If 12 are going to be used for the Scottish services, how many will be used for North TPE? I'd have thought 30 would be needed to cover all the diagrams, but that would only leave 2 for maintenance which seems a very tight stretch.

 

[northwichcat]

Only between Manchester and Sheffield or was it not stated whether it would cover the whole route?

I imagine it'll be like Liverpool-Norwich with just the western section strengthened.

If 12 are going to be used for the Scottish services, how many will be used for North TPE? I'd have thought 30 would be needed to cover all the diagrams, but that would only leave 2 for maintenance which seems a very tight stretch.

We know 12 of them can only be used on Scottish services via Preston due to the lack of wires between Manchester and York.

I think it's difficult to say how many diagrams will be needed for North TPE as we don't know whether routes will have standalone diagrams or not or how long the turnaround times are likely to be.

 

[sprinterguy]

If 12 are going to be used for the Scottish services, how many will be used for North TPE? I'd have thought 30 would be needed to cover all the diagrams, but that would only leave 2 for maintenance which seems a very tight stretch.

The numbers do look a bit tight using some back of the envelope calculations, however I don't think that First would have proposed the number of trains they have if they couldn't make the diagrams work.

For comparison, draft timetable proposals for Great Western services show 32 diagrams for their fleet of 36 Bi-mode trains (and some of those aren't all day). I would agree that some basic calculations suggest to me that Transpennine will have to achieve higher utilisation figures than this day in, day out.

 

[northwichcat]

The numbers do look a bit tight using some back of the envelope calculations, however I don't think that First would have proposed the number of trains they have if they couldn't make the diagrams work.

I'm sure First can make the diagrams work with the number of trains they will have. Perhaps the question to ask is what is the chance of Scottish services having too few seats and what is the chance of a 185 filling in for a bi-mode on a self-contained Scarborough diagram (I say that one because it's the one where using a 100mph train will make the least difference to the timings.)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If anyone's trying to work out how many diagrams are needed for TPE this might help: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...834/tpe-tsr-schedule-3-tsr2-journey-times.pdf It gives the maximum permitted journey times for services under the franchise agreement.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

There has to be compromise though - there simply isn't enough rolling stock nationwide to strengthen every peak time service running. The extra 22 185s that FTPE won't be keeping could be put to good use elsewhere and provide additional capacity, especially if the first class bit is ripped out to provide a solid standard 3-car train. Pretty sure TPE will have done the maths and think that 29 185s will be sufficient for South TPE and the North semi-fasts.

I'm more unsure about only 44 of the new trains being ordered, considering these will have to cover all North fast services and the West Coast Scottish services (with additional Liverpool services to come). Considering around 5-6 will need to be kept aside for maintenance, covering all diagrams with 38 units seems a bit tight, especially given how busy the Scottish services are now, with the possibility some may need strengthening to 10 cars.

Peak services will be crowded, that's just a fact- but I'm worried about overcrowding even off-peak which is currently the situation, and will only get worse. Besides, have First decided how many 185s they need or have DfT given them a budget that they've had to stick to, much like what happened when the original 185 order was cut back? The 185s will be an imperfect solution on any other routes they get cascaded to (much like everyone's favourite units, the 442s!) so surely they should stay where they are.