Speculation on Class 185 future

[sprinterguy]

Do the regulations still require that both classes have wheelchair-accessible access to an accessible toilet (as it were)? I think this was the reason for the weird layout of the composite coach of the 185.

I'm curious about that, as the first class "cupboard" on Crosscountry 170s is in a different carriage to the disabled toilet (and even if it wasn't it would be right at the other end of the carriage, and I don't think you could fit a wheelchair down the aisles?). They were refurbished, with first class fitted during the process, more recently than the 185s were built.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The regulations can't possibly require that, because otherwise the 350s (all layouts) would not have been permissible.

Good point.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect it's that where a wheelchair space is provided, there must be an accessible bog. There is, if you think about it, little reason to provide wheelchair space in 1st, because all wheelchair users bring their own seat anyway.

 

[edwin_m]

That may well be it. 170101-17 cab cars pre-date the RVAR regulations but the rest of what are now the XC Turbostars had to comply amid much wailing and gnashing of teeth. I know wheelchair toilet access from all classes was in the original RVAR (also indirectly the reason why Voyagers don't have small toilets) and there have been various changes since, which have removed some of the more ridiculous requirements, but I'm not up on the details of these.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It wouldn't surprise me if even relatively new stock might need some work pre-2020- there was the issue with 458 PIS screens for example. Looking at buses, quite a few of those that had to be taken out of service at the turn of the year would have appeared, to the untrained eye, to be fine.

 

[Philip]

Just regarding the refurbishment TPE has planned for 185s; do they really need money spent on a refurb programme? The 185s feel very comfy to me with good leg room and seat:window alignment and still look smart inside. If anything they're comfier now than when new because the seats have been worn in a bit and aren't quite as hard. The PA is the only annoying part, but this got worse when it was re-recorded and became more detailed and waffled.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For the PA they need to find a new voice - the one they have is a clipped, harsh and rude voice. The "Sathern" and "Landan Midland" voices are nicer, though I do like the regionalisation - but you can find plenty of nicer sounding voices with a Northern accent than the one they did choose!

The one I particularly like is the new VT one, where they use a mix of a male and female voice almost "bantering with" each other as if they were a pair of radio presenters. I think the effect is really quite good - I don't know if that is the intended effect, but it really works if it is.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Just regarding the refurbishment TPE has planned for 185s; do they really need money spent on a refurb programme? The 185s feel very comfy to me with good leg room and seat:window alignment and still look smart inside. If anything they're comfier now than when new because the seats have been worn in a bit and aren't quite as hard. The PA is the only annoying part, but this got worse when it was re-recorded and became more detailed and waffled.

The internal fixtures and fittings of the 185s are quite worn out after 10 years of crush-loading, and as a so called "premium quality" product they could do with a refurb. Additionally the 185s were ordered back when First were in "PAINT EVERYTHING PURPLE!!!" mode which they seem to have thankfully put behind them. At this point I could bring up capacity again as a more sensible investment but I'll leave that for the moment.

 

[northwichcat]

It wouldn't surprise me if even relatively new stock might need some work pre-2020- there was the issue with 458 PIS screens for example. Looking at buses, quite a few of those that had to be taken out of service at the turn of the year would have appeared, to the untrained eye, to be fine.

185s are fine. Some minor exemption orders have been granted for Sprinters so that work such as moving the door controls by 1cm dosen't have to be carried out.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Just regarding the refurbishment TPE has planned for 185s; do they really need money spent on a refurb programme? The 185s feel very comfy to me with good leg room and seat:window alignment and still look smart inside. If anything they're comfier now than when new because the seats have been worn in a bit and aren't quite as hard. The PA is the only annoying part, but this got worse when it was re-recorded and became more detailed and waffled.

The interiors are showing signs of wear. From the mockup it looks like standard will be keeping seats but get new (possibly leather) seat covers, while first will get new seats. The main reason they are getting refurbishment opposed to just a refresh is because of the requirement to offer better facilities for long distance travel.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

For the PA they need to find a new voice - the one they have is a clipped, harsh and rude voice. The "Sathern" and "Landan Midland" voices are nicer, though I do like the regionalisation - but you can find plenty of nicer sounding voices with a Northern accent than the one they did choose!

The one I particularly like is the new VT one, where they use a mix of a male and female voice almost "bantering with" each other as if they were a pair of radio presenters. I think the effect is really quite good - I don't know if that is the intended effect, but it really works if it is.

TPE ran a friendly voice competition for their staff and the winners got to do the annoucements. Other operators have used people who reguarly do voice over work.

 

[Philip]

I quite liked the old FNW/FGW on-train announcer:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u5QEAHgMrg

Polite, well spoken and not too intrusive; she was the original PA voice on the 175s, is she still used for the FGW 180 announcements?

The odd thing is I was on an ex-Merseyrail 142 a couple of years ago and the same voice came on announcing something like "This train is for Wigan" as the train was leaving Victoria. Anyone else heard automated announcements on Northern 142s?

 

[Emblematic]

It wouldn't surprise me if even relatively new stock might need some work pre-2020- there was the issue with 458 PIS screens for example. Looking at buses, quite a few of those that had to be taken out of service at the turn of the year would have appeared, to the untrained eye, to be fine.

The 458 case was special, caused by a change in specification between draft and final regulations. Everything post-1999 is already compliant with either RVAR or PRM-TSI, as it illegal to modify these trains in a way that doesn't meet the original standards. All that happens in 2020 is the rules become retrospectively applied to pre-1999 stock, and it is then illegal to use a train not meeting one of the standards unless a dispensation is granted.

 

[CosherB]

For the PA they need to find a new voice - the one they have is a clipped, harsh and rude voice. The "Sathern" and "Landan Midland" voices are nicer, though I do like the regionalisation - but you can find plenty of nicer sounding voices with a Northern accent than the one they did choose!

The one I particularly like is the new VT one, where they use a mix of a male and female voice almost "bantering with" each other as if they were a pair of radio presenters. I think the effect is really quite good - I don't know if that is the intended effect, but it really works if it is.

If only Kirsty Young did PA announcements ......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kt60RJ9-WAI

 

[Bletchleyite]

TPE ran a friendly voice competition for their staff and the winners got to do the annoucements.

If that is true it says everything about the attitude of the company...there is nothing friendly about the TPE voice, it sounds rude and harsh.

 

[Philip]

If that is true it says everything about the attitude of the company...there is nothing friendly about the TPE voice, it sounds rude and harsh.

It was re-recorded around the time they started going to Scotland. The original announcements sounded better and less clipped. There used to be two different voices used on 185s initially, the other was a woman with a very strong Yorkshire accent and she did the safety/no smoking stuff.

 

[northwichcat]

If that is true it says everything about the attitude of the company...there is nothing friendly about the TPE voice, it sounds rude and harsh.

It wasn't popular with passengers at TPE managed stations in Yorkshire when Phil Sayer's announcements got replaced by announcements by someone called Rob.

 

[matacaster]

For the PA they need to find a new voice - the one they have is a clipped, harsh and rude voice. The "Sathern" and "Landan Midland" voices are nicer, though I do like the regionalisation - but you can find plenty of nicer sounding voices with a Northern accent than the one they did choose!

The one I particularly like is the new VT one, where they use a mix of a male and female voice almost "bantering with" each other as if they were a pair of radio presenters. I think the effect is really quite good - I don't know if that is the intended effect, but it really works if it is.

Stephen Hawking?

 

[southern442]

It wasn't popular with passengers at TPE managed stations in Yorkshire when Phil Sayer's announcements got replaced by announcements by someone called Rob.

I actually quite like Rob - probably because his voice sounds so similar to a very good family friend

I like Phil a lot more though, I'm not some kind of horrible monster

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Rob Radnall is the competence manager for Conductors on the south route. Lovely chap, he passed me out almost 10 years ago when I started. His voice is heared on the stations, whereas Kath Donald is the on board voice. Staff refer to the on board PIS system as "robokat" as a result!

CCM's manage the competence side, assesing conductors, carrying out rules exams etc. They are also on call as part of safety and incident management. There are 3 of them covering east side, (Paul and Mick the other two, they are right characters, all 3 are well respected) but with Newcastle, York, Scarborough, Hull, Sheffield and Cleethorpes to manage thats a lot of staff between them.

 

[QueensCurve]

The procurement includes 12 125mph capable EMUs for the west-coast services. This would not make sense if they didn't tilt, and there is no way that NR are spending through the roof to ensure some very small 125 sections just for this.

If sections are cleared for 125mph operation with tilt, what is it, apart from curvature, that would incur great expense in fettling the track for 125mph non-tilt?

 

[Idon'tKnow]

As I have commented elsewhere, a 3 car 185 has over 100 fewer standard class seats than a pair of 158s, as used on many services north of Nottingham. I don't see anyone wanting to run 6 car 185 formations between Nottingham & Liverpool (too expensive).

The 0746 Nottingham to Liverpool was a six coach train (3 2 coach trains) one week ago.

 

[najaB]

... what is it, apart from curvature, that would incur great expense in fettling the track for 125mph non-tilt?

You need more?!

 

[absolutelymilk]

Anyone know when the 4 Northern 185s will return to TPE? It was originally December, but I guess this may have been put back due to electrification delays.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Anyone know when the 4 Northern 185s will return to TPE? It was originally December, but I guess this may have been put back due to electrification delays.

It's not a specific 4 (if it were, it'd be easier to ensure no shiny refurbished units get sent to Northern!), just that 4 units are diagrammed to work some Northern services each day. As I understand it, the current arrangements will remain until no longer required but the things that need to happen to get there are many and varied, depending on who you ask. There's cascades to Northern, new stock to Northern, the wires through Chorley- which all have an impact on when Northern no longer needs the 185s.

Thanks for digging this thread up though- 22 months is a long time on the railway!

 

[NorthernSpirit]

It wasn't popular with passengers at TPE managed stations in Yorkshire when Phil Sayer's announcements got replaced by announcements by someone called Rob.

For some strange reason the services to Bradford Interchange are no longer announced at Huddersfield, all others are. Shame that they couldn't wheel out Phil again and edit together Low Moor (from Lowerstoft and Moorfields) so that the service is announced.

 

[2W28 Last run]

May be good to have a thread dedicated to this discussion as it seems the future of all or some of the class 185 fleet is up in the air.

First of all, do we have an exact figure of how many will stay with TPE? I'm slightly surprised that First haven't ordered a fleet of bi-mode trains to cover ALL routes, including South TPE, which really needs more than 3-car 185s running services (essentially 2.5 car if not including first class). Why not operate all services as 5-car trains, without the need to double up units?

But where will the remaining 185s go, aside from the likely temporary destination of Arriva Rail North? Is the ATW Marches route a realistic idea, or even Shrewsbury to Birmingham? I don't like the idea of 185s running Liverpool to Norwich, for some reason. You'd have to double them up for capacity reasons, but then there's the issue of platform lengths and no corridor connection for guards to walk through.

I have just received Railway Magazine March 2018, page 43 first paragraph saying that TPE are going to release 23 of the 51 ‘185s’ to northern:

TransPennine Express (TPE) is transforming It’s fleet over the next couple of years and will release 23 of the 51 class 185 ‘desiro’ DMUs to further boost capacity at northern. The 185s will work alongside new CAF DMUs on the new ‘northern connect’ network

 

[Bletchleyite]

185s to Barrow and Windermere again then?

 

[ATW158Xpress]

So these would replace the older 158’s in Northern’s fleet

 

[Jonny]

Northern is an obvious home, after all a lot of the route clearance etc. work will already have been done.

 

[MasterCutler]

Wouldn't a better place be EMT's Liverpool to Norwich route and cascade the EMT's 158's to Northern to replace 150's and 156's,plus provide an opportunity to add to the existing 158 fleet?

A couple of them running together at busy times would give an additional 2 carriages, rather than the 4 we currently get, and an additional 1 carriage rather than 2 at less busy times.

I've even heard the suggestion of 180's on the same route when Hull Trains get their new stock, but I know that the issues with reliability with the 180 would make the 185 a better fit.

 

[Jonny]

Wouldn't a better place be EMT's Liverpool to Norwich route?

A couple of them running together at busy times would give an additional 2 carriages, rather than the 4 we currently get, and an additional 1 carriage rather than 2 at less busy times.

I understand (could someone in the rail industry please confirm?) that they are ineligible for higher speed limits except those that apply to loco-hauled carriage stock, which I understand would be problematic on the Norwich to Liverpool route, especially east of Peterborough.

 

[ATW158Xpress]

New Wales and Borders franchise due to start I’m October could do with some more 150’s and 156’s to replace Pacers. But won’t surprise me if they get some 144’s going off lease to let some 150’s to go off so can get a disabled toilet fitted.