Speculation on Class 185 future

[AnonymousUser1]

Wouldn't a better place be EMT's Liverpool to Norwich route and cascade the EMT's 158's to Northern to replace 150's and 156's,plus provide an opportunity to add to the existing 158 fleet?

A couple of them running together at busy times would give an additional 2 carriages, rather than the 4 we currently get, and an additional 1 carriage rather than 2 at less busy times.

I've even heard the suggestion of 180's on the same route when Hull Trains get their new stock, but I know that the issues with reliability with the 180 would make the 185 a better fit.

the 185 is a high powered heavyweight unit, it cannot use 'Sprinter' differential speed limits ( which 17x can ) so for much of the network east of the ECML and north or Norwich it'd be down at 30 -40 mph rather than being able to run at 60 -75

 

[sd0733]

While I don't doubt they could be used for some routes on the Northern Franchise, they are heavy and expensive to run as you say, the requirement for additional units in the franchise could also be largely satisfied by the Anglia 170 fleet and possibly a few more 195 carriages, in fact I wonder what the overall costs are between new 195's verses 185's.

Also the ex LM 170/5s and 6s will be released. Some could head to xc but northern could gain a decent amount of 170s.over the next few years.

 

[td97]

Also the ex LM 170/5s and 6s will be released. Some could head to xc but northern could gain a decent amount of 170s.over the next few years.

Maybe someone at the DfT had their head screwed on and decided it makes more operational sense for the 185s to stay in the North, where they can continue to be maintained at Ardwick & York, and are already route-cleared for services on the WCML, Liverpool (both CLC and Chat Moss), Hope Valley and TP; all of which Northern operate on.
Northern aren't the only TOC in need of DMUs - 170s could head to Wales

 

[absolutelymilk]

I agree, makes more sense for Northern to have the 185s, even if they are thirsty/expensive and allow the 170s to go to XC/Wales. At least on the trans-Pennine routes the extra power will be used and as others have said, it's better for maintenance to have them all in the North. Possibly they could substitute one for the other if Northern/TPE were running short one day.

 

[Bantamzen]

While I don't doubt they could be used for some routes on the Northern Franchise, they are heavy and expensive to run as you say, the requirement for additional units in the franchise could also be largely satisfied by the Anglia 170 fleet and possibly a few more 195 carriages, in fact I wonder what the overall costs are between new 195's verses 185's.

The 170s could be just as ideal, although as stated by others they could equally be useful for Cross Country, Arriva Trains Wales etc. Plus the 185s have all the maintenance knowledge slap bang in the middle of Northern-Land, some drivers are already signed and given the size of the CAF orders for 195/331s I seriously doubt a bit more in fuel & track access costs is going to discourage Arriva from exploring the possibility of staking a claim for the ones due to go off lease. And the big selling point is all that extra power, ideal for getting hiking the Hope Valley line, legging it up to The Lakes, and who knows maybe even cruising up to Carlisle on the S&C? I'd say whilst far from nailed on, there is a fair to good chance that Northern will be giving homes to the spare 185s inside of 2 years.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One thing that might be worth looking at if they aren't plugging over the Pennines all the time is removing the engine and fuel tank from the centre vehicle, perhaps? That would give a somewhat lighter vehicle. I know they have the engine rotation feature which cuts down on fuel consumption but they are still lugging the engine and ancillary gubbins around, and the units are fully capable of cross-feeding.

If they end up with Northern permanently they are going to need a rejig to remove the First Class (it just wouldn't be suitable to have that much of it on most of Northern's routes unless they were all to run doubled up, and the 195s are Standard only so Northern clearly are committed to being a Standard Class railway) so that kind of work could be done at the same time.

But yes, I agree Northern is a sensible destination for them particularly in view of the electrification programme being reduced; they are high quality "InterCity" DMUs of which the franchise is now somewhat short.

 

[Chester1]

This all assumes that TPE will release 185s. There is a high chance that the East Midlands franchise consultation will result in the split of Liverpool to Norwich, perhaps with an overlap e.g. Liverpool-Nottingham and Sheffield-Norwich with EMT keeping all 158s to internally cascade to replace 153s. Add in a third Manchester-Sheffield service + spares and TPE wouldn't have many spare.

 

[D365]

This all assumes that TPE will release 185s.

Well it’s been confirmed, hasn’t it?

 

[Chester1]

Well it’s been confirmed, hasn’t it?

Not really. The franchise spec only states how many 185s are allowed to release. They are not obliged to if they can agree and extension with the Rosco and have sufficient commericially viable services for it to make sense. Liverpool to Nottingham transfer is being considered in the East Midlands franchise consultation and would use up 12 + spares.

 

[Bevan Price]

This all assumes that TPE will release 185s. There is a high chance that the East Midlands franchise consultation will result in the split of Liverpool to Norwich, perhaps with an overlap e.g. Liverpool-Nottingham and Sheffield-Norwich with EMT keeping all 158s to internally cascade to replace 153s. Add in a third Manchester-Sheffield service + spares and TPE wouldn't have many spare.

The problem with using 185s on Liverpool - Nottingham is that you would need to use 2 x 185s (6 coaches) to match (and slightly improve) the standard class capacity of a pair of class 158s. A single 185 would not be big enough.

 

[Roast Veg]

How many units/pairs would be required to run Liverpool-Nottingham?

 

[Jonny]

The other case for Northern is that it would most likely be the York-based units that get transferred to Northern (or do they alternate?). After all, all the TPE York services will be Novas by the end of 2019.

 

[backontrack]

The Elgin Line, Far North Line, West Highland Lines and Kyle Line maybe?

Nice big windows, and they're powerful...

 

[D365]

The other case for Northern is that it would most likely be the York-based units that get transferred to Northern (or do they alternate?).

Off the top of my head, York is just an outpost/secondary depot.

 

[DanNCL]

Although it's unlikely to happen, I personally think that the 185s released by TPE should operate the Carlisle - Newcastle - Middlesbrough route, allowing 158s to remain in Yorkshire and the North West, and also allowing all Northern Connect routes to be operated by 185s, 195s and 331s.

In this scenario 185s would receive light maintenance at Heaton (some units already are serviced overnight there for TPE), with units returning to York for heavy maintenance, using the ECS paths currently used by 142s down the ECML.

A good idea I think; unfortunately I can't see it being likely to happen though.

 

[BMIFlyer]

Off the top of my head, York is just an outpost/secondary depot.

All class 185s are Ardwick based.

The future of the unit at TPE is not yet decided. A split of the EMT route from Liverpool to Norwich could result in TPE keeping all the 185 fleet.

Regardless, the news from upstairs is that in the "distant future" TPE will have a fleet of Hitachi and CAF units only. But we are talking the next franchise at least, for that to be decided / implemented.

 

[backontrack]

Although it's unlikely to happen, I personally think that the 185s released by TPE should operate the Carlisle - Newcastle - Middlesbrough route, allowing 158s to remain in Yorkshire and the North West, and also allowing all Northern Connect routes to be operated by 185s, 195s and 331s.

In this scenario 185s would receive light maintenance at Heaton (some units already are serviced overnight there for TPE), with units returning to York for heavy maintenance, using the ECS paths currently used by 142s down the ECML.

A good idea I think; unfortunately I can't see it being likely to happen though.

That is a very good suggestion. The Tyne Valley Line is crying out for better stock than Express Sprinters, however good the 158s are. The Class 185s could keep their Pennine Desiro name (as they'd still be crossing the Pennines), and the big windows onboard would also be good for the views...

 

[BMIFlyer]

Although it's unlikely to happen, I personally think that the 185s released by TPE should operate the Carlisle - Newcastle - Middlesbrough route, allowing 158s to remain in Yorkshire and the North West, and also allowing all Northern Connect routes to be operated by 185s, 195s and 331s.

In this scenario 185s would receive light maintenance at Heaton (some units already are serviced overnight there for TPE), with units returning to York for heavy maintenance, using the ECS paths currently used by 142s down the ECML.

A good idea I think; unfortunately I can't see it being likely to happen though.

All heavy maintenance is done at Ardwick. York is light exams and fuel, plus refurbishments.

 

[D365]

Regardless, the news from upstairs is that in the "distant future" TPE will have a fleet of Hitachi and CAF units only. But we are talking the next franchise at least, for that to be decided / implemented.

The “South Pennine” route being turned over to Northern then?

 

[BMIFlyer]

The “South Pennine” route being turned over to Northern then?

Nope…

 

[D365]

Nope…

Well I’d be very surprised and/or disappointed to see the 185s removed, especially since the refurbishment.

 

[cf111]

The Elgin Line, Far North Line, West Highland Lines and Kyle Line maybe?

Nice big windows, and they're powerful...

I think the plan is for the existing 158s/170s to provide the improved local services on the Inverness-Elgin route with the Aberdeen services being operated by HSTs.

I like the 185s, they are very comfortable inside and quiet considering how powerful they are but I don't think they'll ever see use in the Highlands because of how heavy they are. They can't use the sprinter speed limits and that would make long journeys much longer!

 

[BMIFlyer]

Well I’d be very surprised and/or disappointed to see the 185s removed, especially since the refurbishment.

The refurbishment brings them in line with the new fleet
The long term aim is all TPE trains will be 5 car formations, except WCML services which may end up being 6 cars at some point.

 

[Chester1]

The problem with using 185s on Liverpool - Nottingham is that you would need to use 2 x 185s (6 coaches) to match (and slightly improve) the standard class capacity of a pair of class 158s. A single 185 would not be big enough.

I agree a single unit would certainly be too small but double sets would be fine when you consider that the Airport to Sheffield section of the Cleethorpes services will be double 185s within the next year. A third express service is likely in the long term as well. Other members will know the numbers but I think double 185s have aproximately 70 more seats than double 158s.

How many units/pairs would be required to run Liverpool-Nottingham?

12 + spares to have 6 coach sets and that would require a very tight turnaround of 20 minutes or diversion via Chat Moss.

 

[D365]

The long term aim is all TPE trains will be 5 car formations, except WCML services which may end up being 6 cars at some point.

So what’s the issue with the Sheffield services being six car?

 

[tbtc]

One of the more sensible arguments against 230s at Northern (other than the emotional stuff about "London cast-offs" etc) is that the franchise should avoid small fleets of non-standard DMUs. Fair enough, I can see that argument.

Meanwhile (as well as the 8x three coach 90mph 158s), we will see 30x three coach 100mph 195s arriving, we already have the first of around a dozen three coach 100mph 170s sat at Holbeck, and people now want a smallish fleet of three coach 100mph 185s for the medium/long term too?

Just how many different types of three coach 100mph DMUs do we require? Is there nothing to be said for focussing on just one or two versions? Shame we can't do something clever like try to get a bigger fleet of 185s rather than take on a small fleet of 170s, but I guess the way that the franchises work Arriva had to try to tie up suitable stock to win the bid and can't now simply hand them back now it looks like "better" stock is coming onto the market.

(personally, 185s for Calder Valley services from West Yorkshire over the hills to Manchester Victoria/ Blackpool sound good, I can see them being useful on the Carlisle - Newcastle service plus a couple for the infrequent Carlisle - Leeds service, but many of the services they'd be suitable for are already promised "90% new trains", including four trains an hour on the Hebden Bridge corridor, so putting "fifteen year old" trains on these services is going to require contract renegotiation and some negative headlines about "commuters" not getting what they were promised - Northern are in a tricky position where they can't just rip up agreements, however appropriate 185s might be for getting up and over the Pennines through Hebden Bridge)

 

[BMIFlyer]

So what’s the issue with the Sheffield services being six car?

They don't necessarily need to be 6 car. If TPE has a fleet of 5 car fixed formation trains (802's, etc) then it is better.

6 cars on the WCML would be the 397 with an extra coach inserted, which is an option for the future.

There's a lot of wasted space with 2 class 185s joined together. A single 5 car unit would be a better option. Sheffield services are only 6 cars because 3 aren't enough but 5 would be perfect.

 

[D365]

There's a lot of wasted space with 2 class 185s joined together. A single 5 car unit would be a better option. Sheffield services are only 6 cars because 3 aren't enough but 5 would be perfect.

Unless there’s a platform length issues that I am not aware of, or a desire to remove the 185s completely, what’s the benefit to replacing them?

It’s not like on the Moorgate line where the platforms physically cannot be any longer.

 

[BMIFlyer]

Unless there’s a platform length issues that I am not aware of, or a desire to remove the 185s completely, what’s the benefit to replacing them?

It’s not like on the Moorgate line where the platforms physically cannot be any longer.

The benefit is to have a uniform fleet of 5 car trains (for the near future) on all routes except the WCML (in the middle future).

Besides the less expense on crew training, better fuel economics now, lighter trains (a 185 weighs 150 tonnes), etc. Plus the benefit of always having a 5 car train arrive because for example you could have a broken 185 which can't couple to another and you'd have a 3 car running about instead of a 6. I'd rather have a service of fixed length units where every train has the same layout and length.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Plus the benefit of always having a 5 car train arrive because for example you could have a broken 185 which can't couple to another and you'd have a 3 car running about instead of a 6. I'd rather have a service of fixed length units where every train has the same layout and length.

But if the 5 car breaks down, the service may be cancelled?