South Wales 'Metro' updates

[Bletchleyite]

There is only so far that argument takes you - into a vicious circle of continued centralisation and regional decline, for example

Would you prefer the subsidy stopped?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which leaves the train as the only viable option, if you close the valley lines to convert them into tram lines, then this could have a detrimetal impact on the economy of the valleys.
Obviously you'll get the same effect if you convert the tram to street running in the centre of Cardiff, the tram would become very unreliable and people could lose their jobs as a result.

Why?

Once again, Metrolink in Manchester works well and is very popular.

 

[Dai Corner]

Right. Current spending is higher in areas where there is more need.

But if you compare the tax take versus public spending - London spends £3k less than it earns in taxes, Wales spends £4.5k more than it earns in taxes (all per persons).

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/gove...alpublicsectorfinances/2015to2016#main-points

Indeed. I get annoyed when the Welsh Government takes every opportunity to bite the hand that feeds it.

(Getting off topic now, sorry).

 

[cactustwirly]

Why?

Once again, Metrolink in Manchester works well and is very popular.

But if you hadn't noticed, the Valleys aren't Manchester!

If you close the railway for 6 months, for conversion to a tram line, then you're leaving the people of the valleys without a viable transport option to get to their jobs in Cardiff.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed. I get annoyed when the Welsh Government takes every opportunity to bite the hand that feeds it.

(Getting off topic now, sorry).

The Welsh people did that as well by voting for Brexit.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But if you hadn't noticed, the Valleys aren't Manchester!

If you close the railway for 6 months, for conversion to a tram line, then you're leaving the people of the valleys without a viable transport option to get to their jobs in Cardiff.

The people of Oldham managed it with buses for that kind of period.

 

[cactustwirly]

The people of Oldham managed it with buses for that kind of period.

The geography of Oldham is quite different to that of Merthyr for example.

A.) Oldham is a lot closer to Manchester
B.) there are multiple roads from Oldham to Manchester, but there is only 1 to Cardiff from Merthyr.
C.) Merthyr is in a Valley, whereas Oldham is pretty flat.

 

[Del1977]

I believe the cost of heavy rail, is far outweighed by the economic benefits that it gives the valleys.
Bit of background, the valleys are on their arse economically, meaning that there are very few jobs.
So to get a decent job you need to commute to Cardiff, to do this you need a reliable transport system. The car isn't really an option because of the large upfront costs and congestion.
Which leaves the train as the only viable option, if you close the valley lines to convert them into tram lines, then this could have a detrimetal impact on the economy of the valleys.
Obviously you'll get the same effect if you convert the tram to street running in the centre of Cardiff, the tram would become very unreliable and people could lose their jobs as a result.

Therefore conversion to LR looks good on paper, but in reality could end up costing the taxpayer more.

Well any programme of infrastructure works - be it tram conversion, electrification etc. is not without disruption. But I don't quite see how the Thames Valley can deal with the disruption of the GWML electrification works but the Valley Lines absolutely couldn't manage. Does that mean that you think anything other than DMUs is impossible for the Valley Lines?

 

[B&I]

Would you prefer the subsidy stopped?

An early entry for Non-Sequitur of the Year 2018. No, I want the country decentralised, so that its entire economic fate is not dependent on one fairly small part of it.

 

[cactustwirly]

Well any programme of infrastructure works - be it tram conversion, electrification etc. is not without disruption. But I don't quite see how the Thames Valley can deal with the disruption of the GWML electrification works but the Valley Lines absolutely couldn't manage. Does that mean that you think anything other than DMUs is impossible for the Valley Lines?

There was still a full train service during the weeks in the Thames Valley, and there are multiple alternative routes.
However due to the geography of the Valleys there are no alternative routes.

 

[Del1977]

There was still a full train service during the weeks in the Thames Valley, and there are multiple alternative routes.
However due to the geography of the Valleys there are no alternative routes.

So how will the work be undertaken between Newbury and Reading, where there is no alternative route?

 

[gareth950]

This thread is getting repetitive. Comparisons with Manchester are not helpful.

Just remind everyone - improvements are planned only to the area I have rather crudely outlined in red.



A true SE Wales Metro would be upgrading and electrifying the whole region. Ebbw Vale, the Valley in most dire need of immediate service enhancements, gets DMUs for foreseeable future, even though it could be a quick win for electrification with NR already doing the SWML.

The plan is very much for trams (not tram-trains) north of Queen St, meaning the Core VL will be separated from everything else.

Once the Core VL have been converted, political will and funding will fall away.

 

[Gareth Marston]

This thread is getting repetitive. Comparisons with Manchester are not helpful.

Just remind everyone - improvements are planned only to the area I have rather crudely outlined in red.

View attachment 42613

A true SE Wales Metro would be upgrading and electrifying the whole region. Ebbw Vale, the Valley in most dire need of immediate service enhancements, gets DMUs for foreseeable future, even though it could be a quick win for electrification with NR already doing the SWML.

The plan is very much for trams (not tram-trains) north of Queen St, meaning the Core VL will be separated from everything else.

Once the Core VL have been converted, political will and funding will fall away.

There's to many posters who are not facing up to the reality that the plans are not for a South Wales Metro but a partial conversion of some lines to light rail.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Is there anything good which has happened in Manchester since 1992 which you don't attribute to Metrolink? What about City's recent good form? Down to Pep Guardiola being able to catch a tram to the Etihad?

When did I say that Metrolink was the root cause of all good things in Manchester?

For a city to be successful, it needs a variety of things. One of those things is a transport system which meets the requirements of the people there. For all you talk of it being a disaster, Metrolink does not seem to have held back the city one bit. The people of Manchester are clearly very happy with Metrolink.

Would none of this have happened with proper investment in HR? If LR is really so inherently superior, did HR lines really have to be torn up to enable it to go ahead, rather than (for example) a light rail line being built across the city centre following the 1968 plan from Wythnshawe to Middleton? And must every reference to mega, global or alpha cities be followed by an apologia for penny-pinching in the provinces coupled with colossa-spending in London?

Were the HR lines 'torn up'? They got fiddled with a bit at the Manchester end, and ended up on a ramp down onto the streets rather than staying up on a viaduct, but the rest of them was left pretty much as-is. The Bury line had 750V DC OHLE installed and the Altrincham line had its converted from 25kV AC to 750V DC. As I understand it even the original colour-light signalling was retained.

Do you even bother reading what I write? You can only have light rail alongside heavy rail serving a route if you have enough passengers to make both routes viable. If they had built a totally new street running line from Altrincham there wouldn't have been enough passengers for both lines to continue running. Unless the benefits of LR in that instance are so much higher than HR that it's worth actually closing the HR line completely after building the street running tracks, that LR system isn't going to get built. For much less money and for the same benefit you can just hand over the HR tracks to LR and call it a day, which is what they did.

Surely, it would be best to prioritise electrification of the ‘core valley lines’ along with Penarth & the line to Barry Island - and possibly to Rhoose (Cardiff Airport) and onto Bridgend, over doing anything to put trams onto the streets of Cardiff? This rail system has been treated as some sort of 3rd world transport system for long enough. It is time for the stinking diesels to go from these services with frequent stop /starts between stations.

It is highly regrettable that the UK government pulled the plug on the electrification of the main line from Cardiff to Swansea as that also has local commuting trains in addition to the Class 800’s that stop at Bridgend, Port Talbot & Neath. Had that been done, then I would have thought that the UK government would also have desired to see the Vale of Glam Coast diversionary route also electrified to 25Kv? That being a future possibility, then would they want to see the Cardiff to Barry/Penarth line wired at 750 volts DC as that would mean that if the main line was eventually electrified, they would have to continue to use the Class 800’s as bi-modes instead of reducing the weight by removing the diesel engines - which no doubt, Hitachi would wish to see happen?

Would it not be prudent to electrify the core valleys to 750 volts DC and the Penarth & Barry lines to 25Kv and have dual voltage trains (or tram-trains) - with possible battery operation between Queen street & Central to stop conflict between the two overhead electrical systems? This would also solve one the main critical points made on this forum about the metro > the lack of through trains between the valleys and the coast plus the splitting of the suburban City Line - which almost encircles Cardiff.

Of course, they could do the whole Valley Lines to Coast system as 750 volts DC and in the event that the mainline is closed between Cardiff & Bridgend (assuming it was electrified to 25Kv) and the Class 800’s had diesel operation removed, then surely, the local trains could be used to shift the mainline passengers between Cardiff & Bridgend?
Assuming that the present Manchester to west Wales diesel services remain, then of course they could continue to operate whatever happens regarding electrification.

(An increase in the frequency of trains (or tram-trains) on the line through Rhoose / Llantwit Major would not only solve the overcrowding issues on this route but should also negate the need for the Welsh Government to continue spending money on the bus link to the Airport from downtown Cardiff. This route is also the quickest way between Barry and Bridgend & points west).

Queen Street and beyond can be whatever standard of LR wiring that's best. Dual-voltage capability is a trivial add-on for a new metro train order. The tracks around Cardiff Central can be wired at 25kV AC to keep HR services happy, and the LR trains would switch over halfway between Central and Queen Street.

Unless electrified HR trains have to use the Vale of Glamorgan line, there's not really any immediate need to wire it at 25kV AC. Just like the Tyne and Wear Metro and Rotherham, low-voltage LR electrification can be installed over HR tracks. Most certainly though, the OHLE infrastructure on the Vale of Glamorgan would be designed so that it could handle 25kV AC HR electrification in future if or when the need arises. Even with heavier-duty OHLE, there would be significant cost savings from using 750V DC rather than 25kV AC as electrical clearances could be much smaller. Lots of bridges and tunnels might no longer need any expensive civil engineering works at all, and these works are where the electrification costs have rocketed.

I believe the cost of heavy rail, is far outweighed by the economic benefits that it gives the valleys.
Bit of background, the valleys are on their arse economically, meaning that there are very few jobs.
So to get a decent job you need to commute to Cardiff, to do this you need a reliable transport system. The car isn't really an option because of the large upfront costs and congestion.
Which leaves the train as the only viable option, if you close the valley lines to convert them into tram lines, then this could have a detrimetal impact on the economy of the valleys.
Obviously you'll get the same effect if you convert the tram to street running in the centre of Cardiff, the tram would become very unreliable and people could lose their jobs as a result.

Therefore conversion to LR looks good on paper, but in reality could end up costing the taxpayer more.

I don't think 'LR conversion' is going to consist of that much more than electrification of the Valley Lines at LR voltage. Most of the work would be just as necessary for an HR electrification project. Indeed, if you can use 750V DC with lower electrification clearances, there may be even less work involved. You might not need to close the tunnel south of Caerphilly for track lowering, or the closure may be much shorter and simpler.

LR means everything from a 3-segment low-floor tram like in Besançon all the way up to the DLR with its 90m full ATO high-floor segregated lines, just as HR means everything from the Marston Vale line up to HS2. There isn't one sort of LR system. It's simply the idea of rail transportation lighter than heavy rail and not designed for heavy stuff like coal or fast international services. LR conversion of the Valleys can mean nothing more than using a slightly different sort of EMU.

This thread is getting repetitive. Comparisons with Manchester are not helpful.

Just remind everyone - improvements are planned only to the area I have rather crudely outlined in red.

A true SE Wales Metro would be upgrading and electrifying the whole region. Ebbw Vale, the Valley in most dire need of immediate service enhancements, gets DMUs for foreseeable future, even though it could be a quick win for electrification with NR already doing the SWML.

The plan is very much for trams (not tram-trains) north of Queen St, meaning the Core VL will be separated from everything else.

Once the Core VL have been converted, political will and funding will fall away.

Didn't we spend time discussing how freight will still be allowed on the lines? If so, there's no option but to use tram-trains. The RSSB and other bodies will simply not permit LR operation alongside HR freight unless all safety requirements are met, and meeting them means fitting LR trains will all of the signalling and safety equipment needed to mix with arbitrary HR services. At that point, why would you restrict the South Wales Metro to only LR-converted lines?

 

[gareth950]

Didn't we spend time discussing how freight will still be allowed on the lines? If so, there's no option but to use tram-trains. The RSSB and other bodies will simply not permit LR operation alongside HR freight unless all safety requirements are met, and meeting them means fitting LR trains will all of the signalling and safety equipment needed to mix with arbitrary HR services. At that point, why would you restrict the South Wales Metro to only LR-converted lines?

Because that is the plan!

 

[MarkyT]

Would it not be prudent to electrify the core valleys to 750 volts DC and the Penarth & Barry lines to 25Kv and have dual voltage trains (or tram-trains) - with possible battery operation between Queen street & Central to stop conflict between the two overhead electrical systems? This would also solve one the main critical points made on this forum about the metro > the lack of through trains between the valleys and the coast plus the splitting of the suburban City Line - which almost encircles Cardiff.

Of course, they could do the whole Valley Lines to Coast system as 750 volts DC and in the event that the mainline is closed between Cardiff & Bridgend (assuming it was electrified to 25Kv) and the Class 800’s had diesel operation removed, then surely, the local trains could be used to shift the mainline passengers between Cardiff & Bridgend?

Whether the new units purchased are modern lightweight HR derived EMUs or heavy(ish) tram-derived vehicles, I would strongly favour a 750V DC or 1500 OHLE power system throughout the core valleys to coast network. This would achieve electrification quickly at a critical time when building 25kV systems seems so highly problematic and expensive within the British structure gauge. I cannot see those problems, particularly the newly interpreted clearance issues that are forcing more extensive structural works on current schemes, going away very soon. Sure if you know you've got to rebuild a bridge it's better than being caught out needing such extra work when you thought it wasn't neccessary, but the increased clearance standard will mean more bridges, canopies and other structures being worked on than would have been the case the case historically for such schemes in UK. That's not 140mph, 80 year life spec issues as per the GW project, it's electrical safety clearances that will apply to all 25kV systems of the future, no matter how lightly specified in other respects. What is the alternative in these circumstances? Without electrification, practically the only other realistic option would then be a new DMU, locked in for the next 30+ years. Lower voltage electrification is a practical way to get clean efficient traction into the valleys and coast network soon.

VoG services beyond the end of DC wires at Barry or Rhoose would be linked with main line routes heading east of Cardiff Central to Ebbw Vale, the Marches or Chepstow and would be worked using Bimode trains, exploiting the committed AC electrification on the main line. While 25kV capability, battery banks etc for the core valleys fleet seem desirable, these features all add weight, cost and complexity to what could otherwise be a very simple, lightweight vehicle. The best option might be to design the new fleet with 25kV capability in mind so a proportion of the fleet might be so converted if desired at some time in the future, as is specified for new Merseyrail and T&W fleets. At Cardiff, having platforms #6-8 electrified purely on DC while #0-4 are AC only simplifies operations and engineering challenges. With DC on VoG, no service from the valleys would have to switch systems at the station nor would any section of overhead line need to be switchable between the totally self contained systems (earthing concerns aside). AC bi-mode units arriving from the east on the main line going to Bridgend via VoG or main line would simply switch to diesel mode in the station and proceed under the DC wires (however far they go) among the valley-coast local services.

 

[MarkyT]

Because that is the plan!

'LR conversion' is a poorly-defined term. It's meaning could range from just replacing the fleet and running lighter vehicles on the existing infrastructure with just a simple 750V DC OHLE system added, to full removal of fences, signalling and provision of numerous pedestrian level crossings etc. as well as diversions in places onto road alignment. I suspect at least initially the former is far more likely, and will be neccessary if compatibility with freight is required on at least parts of the core network.

 

[daodao]

The geography of Oldham is quite different to that of Merthyr for example.

Merthyr is in a Valley, whereas Oldham is pretty flat.

Really?!!! Have you ever been there?

 

[MarkyT]

Were the HR lines 'torn up'? They got fiddled with a bit at the Manchester end, and ended up on a ramp down onto the streets rather than staying up on a viaduct, but the rest of them was left pretty much as-is. The Bury line had 750V DC OHLE installed and the Altrincham line had its converted from 25kV AC to 750V DC. As I understand it even the original colour-light signalling was retained.

I think original Metrolink got a new signalling system, but it was entirely conventional, with BR-style colour lights rather like the T&W signalling. I don't think Metrolink had train protection added, but T&W got train-stops based on German Indusi (required because of tunnel operations).

 

[Envoy]

With over 85,000 views and well over 1000 responses, I would like to thank everybody who has taken the time to respond to my post thus far. It has certainly generated an interesting discussion about the South Wales Metro.

 

[B&I]

LR means everything from a 3-segment low-floor tram like in Besançon all the way up to the DLR with its 90m full ATO high-floor segregated lines, just as HR means everything from the Marston Vale line up to HS2. There isn't one sort of LR system. It's simply the idea of rail transportation lighter than heavy rail and not designed for heavy stuff like coal or fast international services. LR conversion of the Valleys can mean nothing more than using a slightly different sort of EMU.

With this comment, the debate passes into total meaninglessness. It is clear that, every time someone points out a disadvantage with light rail AS ACTUALLY IMPLEMENTED in Manchester, and AS APPARENTLY PLANNED in South Wales, such as low capacity, low speed, lack of cross-city connections, you just change the definition and redefine 'light rail' in such a way as suits you. The argument has become pure semantics.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think original Metrolink got a new signalling system, but it was entirely conventional, with BR-style colour lights rather like the T&W signalling. I don't think Metrolink had train protection added, but T&W got train-stops based on German Indusi (required because of tunnel operations).

Metrolink as was (a cheap bodge) is very, very different from what it is now and what the later lines like Oldham have become (a Stadtbahn type thing up to or exceeding the best of the Stadtbahnen in Germany).

 

[Bletchleyite]

With over 85,000 views and well over 1000 responses, I would like to thank everybody who has taken the time to respond to my post thus far. It has certainly generated an interesting discussion about the South Wales Metro.

It is certainly an interesting discussion!

 

[Bletchleyite]

With this comment, the debate passes into total meaninglessness. It is clear that, every time someone points out a disadvantage with light rail AS ACTUALLY IMPLEMENTED in Manchester, and AS APPARENTLY PLANNED in South Wales, such as low capacity, low speed, lack of cross-city connections, you just change the definition and redefine 'light rail' in such a way as suits you. The argument has become pure semantics.

Does anyone have proof that any of those are actually going to be the case?

What if it's high capacity (60m single, 120m double trams)? What if it runs across to Cardiff Central? What if it runs faster than the Pacers on the railway lines and no worse than Metrolink in central Cardiff, getting loads of people closer to their Cardiff destinations?

I'm not absolutely set on light rail as I've said, I would find a 25kV S-Bahn using Class 319s, 323s or similar quite affordable and quite sensible. Of course new EMUs could be bought later when money was available. But, looking at Metrolink, I don't think the advantages of that should be decried in the way some people are.

There are of course other options which shouldn't be decried, like a high floor version of the Rotherham tram-trains running on the existing formations, but electrifying to 750VDC for now as some have suggested. Or even the option of raising the trackbed/lowering platforms and going for those exact units - that could mean 100% accessibility from day one, and if operated under LR rules on the Valley Lines new stations and accessibility of existing stations could be done very cheaply and "passively" (e.g. the return of barrow crossings).

Indeed, having done a bit of reading into the Class 399:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_399

I think it (or a version with the floor at UK platform height as per the Metrolink trams) could be absolutely perfect for the application even if it never runs one metre on the street. It has standing areas for short journeys and a comfortable seated area for longer trips. It has wheelchair space. It has level boarding. It has huge windows (South Wales is pretty scenic). It can run on 25kV or 750VDC overhead. I bet they could do a version with a 915mm height floor if desired, and I'm sure a modu-bog would be possible too if desired. It looks attractive and modern, a new take on what must be the best of the second generation trams. It's not a filthy, smelly DMU. What's not to like about it?

 

[MarkyT]

With this comment, the debate passes into total meaninglessness. It is clear that, every time someone points out a disadvantage with light rail AS ACTUALLY IMPLEMENTED in Manchester, and AS APPARENTLY PLANNED in South Wales, such as low capacity, low speed, lack of cross-city connections, you just change the definition and redefine 'light rail' in such a way as suits you. The argument has become pure semantics.

That's presumably the problem with this 'groundbreaking procurement process' they're using. As I see it they're asking for solutions from industry without being prescriptive of exactly what those will entail. I suspect they're getting all kinds of innovative ideas from the bidders, picking a smorgasbord of elements they like and then asking all to make comparable bids for those various combinations of features. Problem is by definition all the details will be commercial confidential until those final bids are in and evaluated.

 

[gareth950]

Does anyone have proof that any of those are actually going to be the case?

What if it's high capacity (60m single, 120m double trams)? What if it runs across to Cardiff Central? What if it runs faster than the Pacers on the railway lines and no worse than Metrolink in central Cardiff, getting loads of people closer to their Cardiff destinations?

As has been said over and over and over again by locals, Central, Queen St and Cathays stations are all within 5 minutes walking distance of the education and employment areas they serve. Short of literally dropping people off at the door of their office, or maybe putting them in their chair, it's not possible to get any closer.

With the astronomical cost over runs of the tram-train project in Sheffield, why on earth would any infrastructure contractor want to work with NR (or vice versa) to do the same thing all over again somewhere else?

That's presumably the problem with this 'groundbreaking procurement process' they're using. As I see it they're asking for solutions from industry without being prescriptive of exactly what those will entail. I suspect they're getting all kinds of innovative ideas from the bidders, picking a smorgasbord of elements they like and then asking all to make comparable bids for those various combinations of features. Problem is by definition all the details will be commercial confidential until those final bids are in and evaluated.

What could possibly go wrong? A government with no prior experience of handling a rail franchise contract or managing rail infrastructure, using a procurement process never used before anywhere, ever. With one bidder who pulled out and another whose bid collapsed thanks to their construction partner going into liquidation, but who are insisting on staying in the process, which if granted special treatement by TfW to allow them to pull their bid back together and find another partner, could be challenged in the courts by the remaining two bidders.

All the final bids were in on 21st December, so there's no reason for TfW not to release their plans of what they want. Unless of course they still don't know and their is no ITT available to publish.

 

[B&I]

Does anyone have proof that any of those are actually going to be the case?

What if it's high capacity (60m single, 120m double trams)? What if it runs across to Cardiff Central? What if it runs faster than the Pacers on the railway lines and no worse than Metrolink in central Cardiff, getting loads of people closer to their Cardiff destinations?

I'm not absolutely set on light rail as I've said, I would find a 25kV S-Bahn using Class 319s, 323s or similar quite affordable and quite sensible. Of course new EMUs could be bought later when money was available. But, looking at Metrolink, I don't think the advantages of that should be decried in the way some people are.

There are of course other options which shouldn't be decried, like a high floor version of the Rotherham tram-trains running on the existing formations, but electrifying to 750VDC for now as some have suggested. Or even the option of raising the trackbed/lowering platforms and going for those exact units - that could mean 100% accessibility from day one, and if operated under LR rules on the Valley Lines new stations and accessibility of existing stations could be done very cheaply and "passively" (e.g. the return of barrow crossings).

Indeed, having done a bit of reading into the Class 399:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_399

I think it (or a version with the floor at UK platform height as per the Metrolink trams) could be absolutely perfect for the application even if it never runs one metre on the street. It has standing areas for short journeys and a comfortable seated area for longer trips. It has wheelchair space. It has level boarding. It has huge windows (South Wales is pretty scenic). It can run on 25kV or 750VDC overhead. I bet they could do a version with a 915mm height floor if desired, and I'm sure a modu-bog would be possible too if desired. It looks attractive and modern, a new take on what must be the best of the second generation trams. It's not a filthy, smelly DMU. What's not to like about it?

On your first point, I defer to the posters who live in Wales and have gone through this in more detail than I have. Their pessimism seems to have some basis, given the Welsh Govt's persistent mismanagement of rail, apparent preference for road schemes, concentration on a 'core Valley lines' concept which is meaningless if it does bot in some way narrow the scope of the current Valley Lines, and inexplicable secretiveness over the whole process.

As for your other suggestions, I have no problem with certain aspects of LR practice being introduced to operations like the Valleys - lighter weight vehicles (assuming they still have sufficient capacity, and are not street trams trying to do an EMU's job), regardless operation (if it saves substantial costs), even 750v DC electrification (assuming that wouldn't impede operation of other electric trains), though I think the real solution to that one is that the safety standards need to be revisited. I'm also happy to see on-street LR, though the arguments being mounted in this thread that on-street LR networks are somehow unviable unless you nick a parts of HR formations to go with them seem to me nonsensical (as indeed shown by the Metrolink Ashton line).

The T&W Metro seems to me to show how the best of both worlds can be achieved, my only criticism being that the underground staions should have had longer platforms.

My problem with LR is more when HR lines are converted in such a way that services become slower and lower-capacity, both the services directly replaced, and other services which have to be diverted from lines given over to LR use (classically the Altrincham line, where a bit of imagination in the way Metrolink was built could have avoided Mid-Cheshire trains being sent round the houses and further clogging the Manchester-Stockport line).

In Cardiff, there seems to be a risk of this happening because what materials have been released suggest that cross-city services will be severed, there connections to Cardiff Central in parricular will worsen, congestion will increase wherever in Cardiff the trams have to turn, trams will be funnelled into on-street sections along very crowded and narrow city centre streets, and journey times will extend as a result. Now, you don't necessarily need every aspect of current HR operations to remain in place to avoid that, but a lot of these potential problems seem to be considered necessary results of conversion, or at least acceptable side-effects, by the light rail cheerleaders.

 

[MarkyT]

With the astronomical cost over runs of the tram-train project in Sheffield, why on earth would any infrastructure contractor want to work with NR (or vice versa) to do the same thing all over again somewhere else?

There will have been lessons learnt on both sides. Problems with the pilot UK project have hardly disproved the whole tram-train concept, which is used widely in Europe. One of the biggest items of overspend was possibly the late decision to re specify the OHLE for future 25kV conversion. It's plausible that was what led to the road over-bridge deck reconstruction at Rotherham Central illustrated in progress on Google Earth during Jun 2017. Expensive and disruptive work, especially so if it was a late variation to a contract already underway.

 

[NotATrainspott]

VoG services beyond the end of DC wires at Barry or Rhoose would be linked with main line routes heading east of Cardiff Central to Ebbw Vale, the Marches or Chepstow and would be worked using Bimode trains, exploiting the committed AC electrification on the main line. While 25kV capability, battery banks etc for the core valleys fleet seem desirable, these features all add weight, cost and complexity to what could otherwise be a very simple, lightweight vehicle. The best option might be to design the new fleet with 25kV capability in mind so a proportion of the fleet might be so converted if desired at some time in the future, as is specified for new Merseyrail and T&W fleets. At Cardiff, having platforms #6-8 electrified purely on DC while #0-4 are AC only simplifies operations and engineering challenges. With DC on VoG, no service from the valleys would have to switch systems at the station nor would any section of overhead line need to be switchable between the totally self contained systems (earthing concerns aside). AC bi-mode units arriving from the east on the main line going to Bridgend via VoG or main line would simply switch to diesel mode in the station and proceed under the DC wires (however far they go) among the valley-coast local services.

The Rotherham 399s are being delivered with 25kV AC capability despite the fact that there won't be any 25kV AC for them to experience. For an LR vehicle I think the power requirements are low enough that a modern 25kV AC transformer-rectifier setup doesn't add that much cost or mass.

The problem with wiring up 6-8 as DC is that there'll have to be some 25kV AC wiring around Canton depot, and keeping the two separated might be more trouble than it's worth. IIRC NR are planning to wire the triangle so that electric trains are able to turn around. Therefore, if LR trains are going to go anywhere west of Central they would need 25kV AC capability. My assumption is that it'll be easier to engineer Central with pure 25kV AC and then have the switchover somewhere on the ramp up to Queen Street.

With this comment, the debate passes into total meaninglessness. It is clear that, every time someone points out a disadvantage with light rail AS ACTUALLY IMPLEMENTED in Manchester, and AS APPARENTLY PLANNED in South Wales, such as low capacity, low speed, lack of cross-city connections, you just change the definition and redefine 'light rail' in such a way as suits you. The argument has become pure semantics.

No it doesn't.

You're obsessed with perceived problems of Metrolink, which don't seem to negatively affect the travelling public in Manchester whatsoever. Sending Chester services via Sale isn't magically going to solve their capacity requirements. Running them via Stockport makes it easier for them to end up in the terminus platforms at Piccadilly rather than adding to the traffic on the Deansgate corridor. Sure, they could have used the street running capability to avoid the Navigation Road bottleneck but for what benefit? That single-line section limits the Metrolink capacity to a mere 10tph, the frequency the system was designed to deliver in the first place. The Chester services are so infrequent that they'll never be restricted by this short section. Building a street running bypass would have added significant cost and complexity for no obvious gain whatsoever. If Altrincham needs to go up to 15tph, it'll be done with tram-train technology, since the sum of Metrolink and NR services through Navigation Road will never, ever be high enough to justify extra tracks.

We have seen from the depot plans that the LR vehicles will be 50m long. With no other information, that indicates this LR system will be somewhat different from the others we've seen in the UK. If we look at the Taffs Well platform alterations, it also suggests there's a very high likelihood that some of these LR trains will run doubled up in service. 100m trams cannot drive down urban streets. They're far, far too long to ever manage road junctions. Unless there's 100m clear track in front, they can't be allowed to drive over a junction as they would block it. The only way they could run across a street is if the other side were a segregated track kept consistently clear, and that makes them more of a train-tram.

You're looking at the idea of LR conversion and criticising it for flaws which the little concrete information we have suggests it cannot have, because it'll be a very different type of LR. The Taffs Well depot plans are far more concrete than any of the other squiggles on maps are, because the depot design has to be entirely arranged around the sort of rolling stock that will be in use. If 40m or 60m vehicles were used instead, the whole depot plan would need to be ripped up and started again. No such problem exists if the choice of whether to go for street running or tram-train+electrification is changed.

As has been said over and over and over again by locals, Central, Queen St and Cathays stations are all within 5 minutes walking distance of the education and employment areas they serve. Short of literally dropping people off at the door of their office, or maybe putting them in their chair, it's not possible to get any closer.

With the astronomical cost over runs of the tram-train project in Sheffield, why on earth would any infrastructure contractor want to work with NR (or vice versa) to do the same thing all over again somewhere else?

Why would it need to be NR doing the work? The infrastructure part of the SWM bidders are all used by NR to get stuff done on its network. NR have nothing to fear from 750V DC being installed on their tracks if they have no plans for competing electrification.

What could possibly go wrong? A government with no prior experience of handling a rail franchise contract or managing rail infrastructure, using a procurement process never used before anywhere, ever. With one bidder who pulled out and another whose bid collapsed thanks to their construction partner going into liquidation, but who are insisting on staying in the process, which if granted special treatement by TfW to allow them to pull their bid back together and find another partner, could be challenged in the courts by the remaining two bidders.

All the final bids were in on 21st December, so there's no reason for TfW not to release their plans of what they want. Unless of course they still don't know and their is no ITT available to publish.

Once a franchise award is announced, there's a legally-mandated standstill period for other bidders and interested parties to dispute the process. If Labour have totally bunged the whole process up from a legal perspective, then absolutely nothing will happen at all. Upon announcement, the bidder(s) will complain and it'll go to the courts, while no other works will be allowed to go ahead.

On your first point, I defer to the posters who live in Wales and have gone through this in more detail than I have. Their pessimism seems to have some basis, given the Welsh Govt's persistent mismanagement of rail, apparent preference for road schemes, concentration on a 'core Valley lines' concept which is meaningless if it does bot in some way narrow the scope of the current Valley Lines, and inexplicable secretiveness over the whole process.

As for your other suggestions, I have no problem with certain aspects of LR practice being introduced to operations like the Valleys - lighter weight vehicles (assuming they still have sufficient capacity, and are not street trams trying to do an EMU's job), regardless operation (if it saves substantial costs), even 750v DC electrification (assuming that wouldn't impede operation of other electric trains), though I think the real solution to that one is that the safety standards need to be revisited. I'm also happy to see on-street LR, though the arguments being mounted in this thread that on-street LR networks are somehow unviable unless you nick a parts of HR formations to go with them seem to me nonsensical (as indeed shown by the Metrolink Ashton line).

Street running LR networks are not viable if there are not enough passengers to justify the significant cost of ripping up roads to install rails. Because of poor urbanisation in most city suburbs, there isn't a slam-dunk case for anything more than bus lanes. If there's already a heavy rail route along a corridor, then many of the possible tram passengers will just be abstracted away from HR rather than being removed from cars, taxis and buses. If the total number of passengers along the corridor is low enough that you can't have viable HR and tram services running alongside one another, then you can't justify street running.

In marginal cases, there are almost enough passengers for a tram line to be worthwhile in addition to HR. A totally separated line wouldn't be able to pay its way, since those too-few passengers would have to pay for the depots and control centres and, most importantly, the expensive city centre street running. If, however, you've already got other lines successfully running and providing that shared infrastructure, then the other line only needs to pay for its own costs. Ashton passengers only had to pay for the cost of extending the line from the eastern side of Piccadilly out to Ashton. That made it justified.

 

[Mr Apples]

From: https://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/new-vision-sees-cardiff-central-14157440

"Improvements to public realm north and south of the station [Cardiff Central] and between Metro Central and Queen St station to improve access to the Interchange and to encourage walking."

Words fail me. Why on earth does this plan for Cardiff Central include a new multi-storey car park? Is that not going to encourage yet more traffic onto the roads, probably in rush-hour? Does the WAG not have any confidence in it's plan for the new tram (or train) system in getting people to Cardiff city centre?