Smoking

[Southwest]

There may be, but certain people live by their own rules rather than respect others'.

Do people not know who he is? He's god, the driver!

 

[Roast Veg]

If the risk management case for drivers and guards on board no longer includes the fire safety case for smoking (which I assume it no longer does) then the employee is not within safe registered procedure for the service by sparking up and it should therefore be a disciplinary offence from that perspective as well, shouldn't it?

 

[sheff1]

Rumours are abound that with the leaving of the EU that the ban would be relaxed for certain places, still not sure a train or works vehicle would be relaxed from it though

Off topic, but many of those who blame "EU Laws" for all sorts of things will have a bit of a shock post-Brexit when they find out it was nothing to do with EU laws at all .

 

[Swanny200]

That really is complete and utter nonsense, there are no EU smoking regulations. The UK has some of the strongest anti-smoking laws in the EU, but they are UK laws.

I totally understand what you are saying, but from what a couple of the tobacconists that I go to (I still smoke cigars occasionally), they are trying to allow some pubs, clubs and hotels to have smoking inside as long as there is no food in the premises and that there is adequate signage pointing to the risk to health from smoke.

However this as said could be nonsense but it is gathering ground in some circles but again I would see it hard to police because how would you punish someone for just coming out of a smoking pub and lighting up in a non smoking pub and getting confused for instance. I can also see premiums for insurance rising because of the potential risks etc...

The only reason I kind of believe these guys is that they would not have much to gain by lying.

 

[najaB]

I totally understand what you are saying, but from what a couple of the tobacconists that I go to (I still smoke cigars occasionally), they are trying to allow some pubs, clubs and hotels to have smoking inside as long as there is no food in the premises and that there is adequate signage pointing to the risk to health from smoke.

That may or may not be true, but it has absolutely nothing to do with being in or out of the EU. The smoking bans are entirely home-grown.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I totally understand what you are saying, but from what a couple of the tobacconists that I go to (I still smoke cigars occasionally), they are trying to allow some pubs, clubs and hotels to have smoking inside as long as there is no food in the premises and that there is adequate signage pointing to the risk to health from smoke.

There is nothing stopping the UK government doing this tomorrow if they wanted, similar rules already exist in Austria and in Italy.

I hope they don't- as an asthmatic, the smoking ban has been a Godsend- but they could.

 

[lejog]

I totally understand what you are saying, but from what a couple of the tobacconists that I go to (I still smoke cigars occasionally), they are trying to allow some pubs, clubs and hotels to have smoking inside as long as there is no food in the premises and that there is adequate signage pointing to the risk to health from smoke.

However this as said could be nonsense but it is gathering ground in some circles but again I would see it hard to police because how would you punish someone for just coming out of a smoking pub and lighting up in a non smoking pub and getting confused for instance. I can also see premiums for insurance rising because of the potential risks etc...

The only reason I kind of believe these guys is that they would not have much to gain by lying.

I suggest you read this page - https://ec.europa.eu/health/tobacco/smoke-free_environments_en before believing any rubbish about any connection between the EU and UK smoking law.

Tobacconists have "not much to gain" from a relaxation of the smoking ban? Pull the other one it's got bells on.

Who are this mysterious "they" who are trying to allow a relaxation of the ban? I'm sure tobacconists and some publican's are trying, but if they succeed, I'll eat Arctic Troll's hat (since I don't possess one). Clubs, pubs and hotels are workplaces too.

Anyway, this is all completely off-topic to the subject of staff smoking on trains.

 

[bramling]

That's a good question - my gut feeling is 'Yes'.

Where I am that has happened. Ended up getting fudged though, as officially the culprit wasn't able to be identified - even though everyone knew who it was.

 

[Swanny200]

I suggest you read this page - https://ec.europa.eu/health/tobacco/smoke-free_environments_en before posting any more rubbish that tobacconists tell you about leaving the EU.

Tobacconists have nothing to gain from a relaxation of the smoking ban? Pull the other one it's got bells on.

When did I say that they had nothing to gain from the relaxation of the smoking ban? What I was trying to say was, what would they have to gain from telling one of their customers that the government were trying to relax the smoking ban, if it was an outright lie? Mention was made of Brexit and the fact that Theresa May has in the past been clear on her stance on smoking in that she has given up smoking but voted against the smoking ban in the first place, has not changed her opinion of it and didn't want the plain packaging to be introduced.

Now I apologise if the mention of Brexit made me immediately think that the ban had something to do with the EU and I will admit I didn't really check the facts on that side of the law first.

 

[jon0844]

Off topic, but many of those who blame "EU Laws" for all sorts of things will have a bit of a shock post-Brexit when they find out it was nothing to do with EU laws at all .

Indeed, especially how many EU laws are in fact based on existing UK laws, either current or planned, which are then made Union wide.

If people think that when we leave, we'll tear up all these old laws so people can smoke anywhere, we can all ditch LED light bulbs and go back to inefficient incandescent lighting, we will start re-selling vacuum cleaners with huge motors that pick up less than modern designs etc etc... boy are they going to be disappointed.

At least unless we vote in Farage and he does just that, Trump style.

 

[Bromley boy]

A thread arising from my experiences of late. I use the North Downs line almost daily, and have experienced a significant number of train crews smoking on board. Last night, the 1743 from Redhill stank of cigarette smoke in the rear saloon, and at Reigate the guard (rather recklessly) flicked his ash out of the rear cab door window onto the platform.

Not impressed, and I have already reported the incident to GWR, hence my quoting the specifics here. Am I alone in noticing an insidious increase in train crew smoking? This applies to passengers on platforms as well, as I believe the bye-law states that platform signage must be displayed in order to enforce smoking (including 'vaping') bans?

This is something that does occur from time to time, although pretty rarely in my experience. I've been in cabs where there is fag ash on the floor/driver's desk. It's certainly inconsiderate and irritating, although I can't say it bothers me any more than finding discarded food wrappers/banana skins.
Thankfully most staff have the sense to leave their working environment as they would wish to find it.

I'm surprised guards do it as they are far more exposed to scrutiny than drivers, for obvious reasons. Members of staff smoking in full view of passengers (or at any other time on work premises!) is of course entirely unacceptable and these individuals are risking their jobs.

Much more common and very distracting is passengers who light up immediately behind the driver's cab while the train is in motion. Smoking/vaping on platforms occurs very frequently. I tend to turn a blind eye to both because I'd rather just open the window than have risk a stressful and potentially dangerous confrontation. My reasoning is that the kind of person who shows such blatant disregard for rules/social norms is highly unlikely to take kindly to being asked to stop!

 

[Swanny200]

Indeed, especially how many EU laws are in fact based on existing UK laws, either current or planned, which are then made Union wide.

If people think that when we leave, we'll tear up all these old laws so people can smoke anywhere, we can all ditch LED light bulbs and go back to inefficient incandescent lighting, we will start re-selling vacuum cleaners with huge motors that pick up less than modern designs etc etc... boy are they going to be disappointed.

At least unless we vote in Farage and he does just that, Trump style.

Please don't mention Farage and Trump in the same sentence again... I will have really bad nightmares.

There is already some relaxation to an extent, prisons are as far as I know exempt as long as they are crown prisons, one of the tobacconists I visit has evenings where we can have a cigar in the shop, and at least one hotel chain still has smoking rooms although only one or two per hotel. The campaigning regarding the pubs is probably to do with the smoking ban being blamed on pub closures but to be honest were there not weekly closures of pubs before the ban?

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Off topic, but many of those who blame "EU Laws" for all sorts of things will have a bit of a shock post-Brexit when they find out it was nothing to do with EU laws at all .

I already know that the smoking ban was a British law, my brother once ran a pub and those who wished to light up could do so providing that they go into the designated room - which worked well until a resident nearby complained about certain individuals flouting the law. Needless to say that the pub eventually closed, to this day I still blame one of the residents nearby to destroyed a local business.

As a non smoker I put that room in so that everyone who were customers were treat equally the only barrier there was two doors.

Anyway back to the North Downs Line...

 

[47271]

Occasionally, very occasionally, I'm in the front coach of a Scotrail 170, funnily enough usually in open countryside between Perth and Ladybank, and catch the unmistakable smell of fag smoke. I look up and down and there's definitely no passengers smoking. The toilet is unoccupied so it can't be coming from there. It can't be getting pulled in from the outside, if someone's smoking in a field say, as we pass at 60mph or so.

But if the driver's smoking with the window open I can well imagine that the aircon could pull in some of the stink...

 

[jon0844]

Would a union support a driver that was suspended or sacked for smoking (through what I'd assume would be a number of verbal or written warnings first?).

 

[Swanny200]

Would a union support a driver that was suspended or sacked for smoking (through what I'd assume would be a number of verbal or written warnings first?).

I don't know, every job I have done that has involved me working 8 hour shifts has given me a lunch break and two 10 to 15 minute breaks, would there be enough time for a driver or a guard between turns and having to do the safety critical work needed to leave the platform, find a space away from the no smoking signs and light up, smoke their cigarette/cigar/pipe and return to the train for departure, how much rest time on a shift do you get? does it change with T.O.C?

I did see an E.W.S driver once, funnily enough at Slateford where another freight driver was pictured doing something that he wasn't supposed to (can't remember unless someone can remind me?) pipe in his mouth puffing along, I cannot imagine the rules would be any different because you are carrying coal/steel/Tesco goods and not passengers.

Not every smoker can last 4 or 5 hours without a fag but dependent on if they get short breaks and how long they get, a union may be able to argue that they do not get long enough or do not get the right breaks that enable them to smoke.

 

[route:oxford]

There is nothing stopping the UK government doing this tomorrow if they wanted, similar rules already exist in Austria and in Italy.

It's a devolved matter isn't it?

So UK Goverment would only be able to deal with England.

 

[infobleep]

As a non-smoker, and while I realise it's against the law, anyone smoking on an open-air, unmanned platform (staff or public) doesn't really bother me if they make the effort to move out of the way of any other people waiting.

Staff smoking smoking while in their work-place is another matter. Never mind anything else, leaving the cab covering in ash and smelling of cigarette smoke is really quite disrespectful towards their colleagues.

Not sure they do that but your right it's not a major issue other than being against the law and illegal I suppose!

 

[Millisle]

Would a union support a driver that was suspended or sacked for smoking (through what I'd assume would be a number of verbal or written warnings first?).

'Support' is a little vague. A union would advise and represent a member in any disciiplinary proceedings, innocent or guilty, alleged first or repeat offender, even if it were an open and shut case and only mitigation could be attempted. Like lawyers trade union officials do not only represent members who may be perceived as more deserving. I speak as a retired union official, not on the railway, but these are general union principles.
The context of repeated proved breaches of smoking law and health and safety law would probably make a member unsavable, but one would do one's best: that is what members paid their dues for.

 

[fairysdad]

I haven't got much of an issue with those smokers who head right down to the far end of a platform away from others to have a smoke.

As a non-smoker, and while I realise it's against the law, anyone smoking on an open-air, unmanned platform (staff or public) doesn't really bother me if they make the effort to move out of the way of any other people waiting.

Whilst, as a smoker myself, I do respect and obey the rules about smoking on platforms, I am at a tiny bit of a loss as to why it's prohibited on outside unenclosed platforms? Would welcome any answers!

I've seen people smoking on unmanned platforms before now but I wasn't going to do anything about it. By the time anyone could deal with it, they'd be gone.

There are two odd situations with this; I have often found that smokers wait by the station entrance until they've finished their cigarette, thus meaning that all station users have to go through the tobacco haze to get onto the platform, and - slightly related - the layout of many stations meaning that smokers in such a location can actually be closer to the track to be able to board their train than non-smokers waiting on the platform!

 

[cf111]

Not sure they do that but your right it's not a major issue other than being against the law and illegal I suppose!

A barman serving an alcoholic drink to a drunk person on licences premises is breaking the law but the next time I'm in the pub I'd be surprised to see the police huckle Scotty from my local out from behind the bar when I go up to stand my round because I've had five pints already! Things aren't black and white.

I'd tell someone to stop smoking if I saw them lighting up on the concourse at Glasgow Central but I doubt I'll be phoning the BTP if I see someone having a sly fag on the platform at Forsinard. I've been off the vile things for five years now so I tend to avoid cigarette smoke if at all possible but if I can't smell it then I find it difficult to bring myself to care about it.

 

[Master29]

No I am absolutely serious. Can't fathom why someone would sabotage their career like that.

I must admit I`m pretty surprised this would happen nowadays, especially on public transport.

 

[Bromley boy]

I don't know, every job I have done that has involved me working 8 hour shifts has given me a lunch break and two 10 to 15 minute breaks, would there be enough time for a driver or a guard between turns and having to do the safety critical work needed to leave the platform, find a space away from the no smoking signs and light up, smoke their cigarette/cigar/pipe and return to the train for departure, how much rest time on a shift do you get? does it change with T.O.C?

I did see an E.W.S driver once, funnily enough at Slateford where another freight driver was pictured doing something that he wasn't supposed to (can't remember unless someone can remind me?) pipe in his mouth puffing along, I cannot imagine the rules would be any different because you are carrying coal/steel/Tesco goods and not passengers.

Not every smoker can last 4 or 5 hours without a fag but dependent on if they get short breaks and how long they get, a union may be able to argue that they do not get long enough or do not get the right breaks that enable them to smoke.

Our diagrams are a huge struggle for heavy smokers. Often 2-3 hours driving/minimal turnarounds before PNB (trip length average of 45 mins with max 7-10 mins turnaround at each end, depending on train length). That's not enough time to go to the toilet, let alone out for a tab.

The difference, of course, is that going to the toilet is a perfectly legitimate reason to delay a train, as far as the TOC is concerned, due to the distraction risk. Going for a fag definitely is not, so smokers unfortunately have to work around it.

Yet another reason I'm very glad I quit!

 

[Hadders]

I can't see there being a relaxation of the smoking ban. Part of the rationale for the ban was the adverse effect on staff having to work in smoking areas.

The health benefits are also too great to consider any relaxation.

 

[jon0844]

Then you see what Trump is willing to overturn and do wonder what we might do down the line post-Brexit.

 

[MedwayValiant]

There are two odd situations with this; I have often found that smokers wait by the station entrance until they've finished their cigarette, thus meaning that all station users have to go through the tobacco haze to get onto the platform, and - slightly related - the layout of many stations meaning that smokers in such a location can actually be closer to the track to be able to board their train than non-smokers waiting on the platform!

I can but agree. Is there any good reason why smoking is not permitted on open air platforms?

The smoking law itself does not apply, since it concerns enclosed spaces only. The usual understanding is that two walls and a roof must be present before a space is considered enclosed. If there is only one wall, the law does not prohibit smoking.

Now, the railway industry was perfectly entitled to make extra rules of its own, just as it's your right to tell people that you don't allow smoking in your house - but those extra rules are not the law. IIRC, a couple of TOCs got told off for claiming that smoking on platforms was now illegal when it wasn't.

There are stations where people regularly smoke on the platforms, and the staff do nothing to stop them. At Needham Market (unstaffed station), I once saw a uniformed member of train crew and a uniformed police officer smoking on the platform while waiting for the train! Then there was the unfortunate incident a few years back when a woman passenger told some other passengers not to smoke on the platform and got pushed onto the tracks.

But is there any real reason not to allow smoking on open air platforms? This is allowed in Switzerland, and "what they do in Switzerland" often gives one a pretty good idea of what is a sensible way to run a railway.

 

[johntea]

Recently I've seen Northern STM revenue staff moaning at people for smoking on totally open air platforms funnily enough!

Not quite sure what they are trying to achieve but there you go

 

[GatwickDepress]

But is there any real reason not to allow smoking on open air platforms? This is allowed in Switzerland, and "what they do in Switzerland" often gives one a pretty good idea of what is a sensible way to run a railway.

There is a very simple reason for this. Smoking is foul. When I'm waiting for a train, I do not wish to wait in a cloud of smoke, nor board an enclosed train carriage that will stink to high heaven.

Now a lot of smokers are considerate and would smoke at the extremities of platforms but there's always a selfish minority who would happily puff away in a crowd of passengers. You can always smoke outside the station instead...

Not every smoker can last 4 or 5 hours without a fag but dependent on if they get short breaks and how long they get, a union may be able to argue that they do not get long enough or do not get the right breaks that enable them to smoke.

Blimey, replace fags with crack and you've got an immediate admission to a drugs rehabilitation programme.

 

[bramling]

Would a union support a driver that was suspended or sacked for smoking (through what I'd assume would be a number of verbal or written warnings first?).

As with anything, the union would support the member of staff in ensuring the company follows their own procedures correctly and ensuring these procedures are applied in a fair and consistent manner.

This is as far as their support is likely to go, unless there's a general feeling among members that the rules themselves are unjustified, and a sufficient appetite to make a stand. I can't really see that applying to a smoking ban, especially since gone are the days when most railway staff smoked - nowadays there are likely to be just as many staff who will complain if someone is smoking in a place where they're not supposed to.

It's not automatic for the union to "support" a member of staff. For example if someone has made a sufficiently bad error then the union may well advise the member of staff to resign rather than face inevitable dismissal. Or the union may simply advise a member of staff to accept any warning or sanction they get in a disciplinary matter. In these examples the union will still represent the member of staff to ensure the case is handled correctly, they may throw in mitigating factors in the hope of lessening the severity of the outcome. But any idea that a union will automatically defend the member of staff to the last is a little wide of the mark.

I would add a rider that the above applies to locations where there is generally a reasonable or good relationship between the unions and management. Things may well be more "flashpoint" at places where relations are bad, as relations can end up being a game of point scoring and brinkmanship rather than rationally dealing with a given issue.

 

[4141]

There are stations where people regularly smoke on the platforms, and the staff do nothing to stop them. At Needham Market (unstaffed station), I once saw a uniformed member of train crew and a uniformed police officer smoking on the platform while waiting for the train!

A few years ago I was on a train from Cheltenham to Devon, diverted due to engineering works via Chepstow and back through the Severn Tunnel. As we drew into Newport to reverse, the train manager announced that if anyone wanted a smoke, they should take the opportunity to get out onto the platform - and that he'd be joining us!