Scottish Electrification updates & discussion

[GRALISTAIR]

The only difficult structure between Markinch and Dundee is the Tay Bridge. It's not a World Heritage Site so it will be much easier to implement a solution than for the Forth Bridge.

It is still listed though.

 

[Class 170101]

Is there any news of what is next to be electrified post-2020? If not, when are we likely to find out?

I'm interested in the Fife Circle, which the OP has down as an unlikely 2024! Can the Forth Bridge even be electrified, and how much work would it be to fix the Kinghorn tunnel? Does the Halbeath bypass affect things if it gets the go ahead?

Sorry for all the questions :P

We'll know in June when the HLOS is published. Strong contenders are East Kilbride, Barrhead, Maryhill and Edinburgh South Sub.

They are almost certainly going to get electrified. Both the Forth Bridge and various tunnels (IIRC, the tunnel immediately north of the bridge is fairly tight too) are going to be significant challenges for the work, hence the last proposal I heard included at least one or two control periods of design work for the tricky parts of the route, so we're likely talking mid-CP7 or CP8 before the Fife Circle gets electrified. And Markinch to Dundee may well wait a few more years after that.

I would think Edinburgh South Sub-urban and Maryhill could be done easily and I would be surprised if any feeder stations were required for these short stretches which are / will shortly be electrified at both ends.

If the Forth and Tay Bridges and the tunnel referred to the north of end of the Forth Bridge are too difficult to electrify why not just use Bi-mode trains or battery trains to cover those short distances? If it is expected to take 10 - 15 years to get the wires this far one would like to think that battery technology will have moved on and improved since the Class 379 was tested a couple of years ago.

The only difficult structure between Markinch and Dundee is the Tay Bridge. It's not a World Heritage Site so it will be much easier to implement a solution than for the Forth Bridge.

Not yet but you can be sure if NR threaten to install the electrification unsympathically on the Tay Bridge that a listing will appear extremel;y quickly. Additionally could the Tay Bridge actually support OHL wires and kit upon it?

 

[najaB]

It is still listed though.

Indeed it is. But listed structures are a lot easier to modify than World Heritage Sites. Given some of the things that Dundee City Council have allowed to happen, I can't see them objecting too strongly as long as the design is even slightly sympathetic.

 

[edwin_m]

Amongst all that metalwork OLE on the Forth Bridge will be virtually invisible, especially if they manage to paint the steelwork a red lead colour and source some insulators similarly coloured. Whereas the Tay Bridge will need OLE supports which will be more visible.

Ironic, or perhaps iron-ic.

 

[snowball]

I seem to remember reading that when the Forth Bridge was designated (I think "inscribed" is the word for WH sites), it was agreed that this would not preclude electrification.

I'm more interested in the practical obstacles. I've seen it alleged (and it seems plausible) that the main clearance issue for electrifying the Forth Bridge is the distance between the diagonal overhead girders and the ends of a pantograph. Presumably this can be addressed by adding a suitable thickness of insulating material to the relevant part of the girders.

 

[Altnabreac]

Is there any news of what is next to be electrified post-2020? If not, when are we likely to find out?

I'm interested in the Fife Circle, which the OP has down as an unlikely 2024! Can the Forth Bridge even be electrified, and how much work would it be to fix the Kinghorn tunnel? Does the Halbeath bypass affect things if it gets the go ahead?

Sorry for all the questions :P

We'll know in June when the HLOS is published. Strong contenders are East Kilbride, Barrhead, Maryhill and Edinburgh South Sub.

I'd suggest the ordering of post 2019 electrification is likely to be something like:
Edinburgh South Sub
Maryhill
East Kilbride
Barrhead
Dunblane - Perth
Dalmeny Chord
Barrhead - Kilmarnock
Perth - Dundee
Kilmarnock - Barassie
Dundee - Aberdeen

With Fife Circle only following at that point. So closer to 2030 than 2025 would be my guess.

 

[Glenmutchkin]

What is to be gained by electrifying the Edinburgh South Sub?

 

[gsnedders]

What is to be gained by electrifying the Edinburgh South Sub?

Primarily the ability to route ECS movements and freight movements not via the congested stations.

 

[Altnabreac]

What is to be gained by electrifying the Edinburgh South Sub?

From the Scotland Route Study:

Edinburgh Suburban Line Enhancement Programme

Summary

Remodelling of Portobello, Slateford and Niddrie West single lead junctions, upgrade of the signalling capacity, enhancement of the Millerhill through route capabilities (from Monktonhall Junction) in addition to electrification.

Benefits

This package of enhancements will provide a robust and fit for purpose link between the East Coast Main Line and the West Coast Main line. It will accommodate forecast electric freight paths (avoiding Edinburgh Waverley), provide appropriate electric diversionary routes for Anglo Scottish and local services (to Dunbar/North Berwick and between Edinburgh and Glasgow via Falkirk High) and provide flexibility on the approaches to Edinburgh Waverley. Electrifying the existing line without further upgrades would provide an electrified link between the ECML and WCML for freight, but not the capacity for it to be used as a diversionary passenger route for ECML and WCML services running to /from Edinburgh Waverley.

This builds on the W12 gauge enhancement project and electrification of the Shotts line in CP5 and allows operators to divert electric rolling stock during planned disruption.

 

[Glenmutchkin]

Thank you both. Interesting that use as a diversionary route seems to be given quite a lot of weight in this instance. Presumably there still has to be some sort of financial case for this route to be electrified.

Is it reasonable to conclude that diversionary potential can be built into the case for other electrification schemes?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Thank you both. Interesting that use as a diversionary route seems to be given quite a lot of weight in this instance. Presumably there still has to be some sort of financial case for this route to be electrified.
Is it reasonable to conclude that diversionary potential can be built into the case for other electrification schemes?

It's an NR capacity scheme. You can forget the freight needs for a decade.
Diversionary routes have counted for very little in the past. eg the Dalmeny loop was deleted from EGIP before they got approval.
I would think SG would go for prioritising lines with clear passenger benefits, like East Kilbride and the GSW lines.
Maryhill would come some way down the list, I would have thought, in terms of benefits per £m.
There are two contractors working at the moment, so maybe two routes can be electrified in parallel, as Stirling and Shotts are at the moment.

 

[NotATrainspott]

The diversionary route case for the South Suburban is particularly strong because there are works required in the near future that will require that diversionary capability. It's like how the connection line at Anniesland was justified for the Queen Street HL tunnel closure period, even though there is no obvious future use for any of it. The works planned east of Edinburgh are of comparable scale and difficulty as they're going to redouble one of the Calton tunnels as well as doing some pretty major remodelling works. If the diversionary capability isn't available via the South Sub all of the many ECML electric-only trains will have a bit of a problem.

Even without that there's a strong case for these works on the basis that the new Hitachi Millerhill depot is on the eastern side of Edinburgh and is absolutely essential for the entire EGIP electrified service. If there's no electrified diversionary route then any minor disruption will totally destroy the rail network. A very significant proportion of the total passenger kilometres carried by ScotRail are switching to pure electric traction and the diesels previously used are going elsewhere, so it's electric or nothing. Depot access considerations are not 'sexy' issues but it's absolutely vital for the good functioning of the rail service.

 

[Clansman]

In terms of electrification for Perth, isn't any point in not doing Dundee at the same time given that come 2018, there will be hourly terminators from the latter? Electrifying Perth solely and not Dundee in the same program would leave the wires at Perth used only a couple of times per day, unless of course local services to Dunblane were extended (not gonna happen) or the HST replacements are bi-mode - which is out the equation already as Dundee should be electrified by that point.

In other words, electrifying Perth alone isn't going to pose any immediate benefits other than being a further stepping stone to eventually getting the wires up to Aberdeen. Perth's going to be closed fully for a good year probably when it finally gets done up and the Moncreiffe tunnel lowered, so it would be far more beneficial for Network Rail to get Dundee done and dusted in the same bracket of works.

 

[InOban]

According to the quarterly NR CP5 report, the major infrastructure works on the suburban line (two major road bridges) have been completed, and essentially it is ready to be electrified. The reasons why it is essential are exactly as other posters have said: it is essential that electric trains are able to go round and enter Waverley from the wrong end.

 

[Clansman]

According to the quarterly NR CP5 report, the major infrastructure works on the suburban line (two major road bridges) have been completed, and essentially it is ready to be electrified. The reasons why it is essential are exactly as other posters have said: it is essential that electric trains are able to go round and enter Waverley from the wrong end.

It'd be a big hit for those who commute to North Berwick and Dunbar if trains from Waverley ran through Haymarket and out via the South Suburban Line. It also gives far better flexibility when it comes to platform availability as many a time trains are often sitting in the tunnel at the East side of Waverley waiting for a platform to become available.

 

[Glenmutchkin]

It'd be a big hit for those who commute to North Berwick and Dunbar if trains from Waverley ran through Haymarket and out via the South Suburban Line. It also gives far better flexibility when it comes to platform availability as many a time trains are often sitting in the tunnel at the East side of Waverley waiting for a platform to become available.

Surely that would add significant time to the Edinburgh to North Berwick/Dunbar commute.

 

[Clansman]

Surely that would add significant time to the Edinburgh to North Berwick/Dunbar commute.

..or reduce the number of people getting on already crowded Edinburgh services at Haymarket, and crowding the station - and also freeing up platforms for borders services (and vice versa with North Berwick/Dunbar services)

Not suggesting it should happen - just talking my way through how electrification of the line could positively impact on all aspects should services either need diverting for any reason such platform flexibility.

 

[Glenmutchkin]

..or reduce the number of people getting on already crowded Edinburgh services at Haymarket, and crowding the station - and also freeing up platforms for borders services (and vice versa with North Berwick/Dunbar services)

I don't understand what you are trying to say here.

 

[InOban]

Coming back to the present, has anyone seen any reports confirming that E to G went live last Sunday eg actual test trains into QS?

 

[Clansman]

I don't understand what you are trying to say here.

I'm saying that Haymarket has a lot of passengers who commute to stations to North Berwick, and that when the south suburban line is electrified it could maybe give Scotrail an opportunity to call at Haymarket to give a direct connection. But the electrification of the line will give greater flexibility anyway.

As said in my previous post, I'm just talking my way through potential benefits and opportunities rather than proposing something serious.

Back to reality indeed, I too wonder whether or not EG is live yet. Not an uttered word I can find anywhere verifying the current (no pun intended) situation.

 

[Mordac]

According to the quarterly NR CP5 report, the major infrastructure works on the suburban line (two major road bridges) have been completed, and essentially it is ready to be electrified. The reasons why it is essential are exactly as other posters have said: it is essential that electric trains are able to go round and enter Waverley from the wrong end.

Can you link to this report, please? I tried looking for it on NR's website, but couldn't find it.

 

[Glenmutchkin]

I'm saying that Haymarket has a lot of passengers who commute to stations to North Berwick, and that when the south suburban line is electrified it could maybe give Scotrail an opportunity to call at Haymarket to give a direct connection.

I seem to remember that there were through services from North Berwick to Haymarket a decade or two back. I do not know whether it fell victim to economics or layout constraints. Either way it is difficult to picture how a meander round the South Sub could improve the lot of East Lothian commuters.

 

[Clansman]

I seem to remember that there were through services from North Berwick to Haymarket a decade or two back. I do not know whether it fell victim to economics or layout constraints. Either way it is difficult to picture how a meander round the South Sub could improve the lot of East Lothian commuters.

The operational benefits are there, but passenger wise there's not a lot, as you said.

 

[InOban]

Can you link to this report, please? I tried looking for it on NR's website, but couldn't find it.

It's called the enhancements delivery plan. Another poster gave the link on a different thread. Covers the whole of the UK.
If you can't find I will try to remember in which thread it was posted

 

[InOban]

Google finds it. It's the march one you want.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

It's called the enhancements delivery plan. Another poster gave the link on a different thread. Covers the whole of the UK.
If you can't find I will try to remember in which thread it was posted

It's in the sticky at the top of the infrastructure page last post

 

[Starmill]

Err, there are already trains from North Berwick to Haymarket at 0647, 0717, 0755 and 1756 (although this one is non-stop to Musselburgh).

There are trains from Haymarket to North Berwick at 0829, 1705, 1742 and 1836.

 

[92002]

The diversionary route case for the South Suburban is particularly strong because there are works required in the near future that will require that diversionary capability. It's like how the connection line at Anniesland was justified for the Queen Street HL tunnel closure period, even though there is no obvious future use for any of it. The works planned east of Edinburgh are of comparable scale and difficulty as they're going to redouble one of the Calton tunnels as well as doing some pretty major remodelling works. If the diversionary capability isn't available via the South Sub all of the many ECML electric-only trains will have a bit of a problem.

Even without that there's a strong case for these works on the basis that the new Hitachi Millerhill depot is on the eastern side of Edinburgh and is absolutely essential for the entire EGIP electrified service. If there's no electrified diversionary route then any minor disruption will totally destroy the rail network. A very significant proportion of the total passenger kilometres carried by ScotRail are switching to pure electric traction and the diesels previously used are going elsewhere, so it's electric or nothing. Depot access considerations are not 'sexy' issues but it's absolutely vital for the good functioning of the rail service.

There have been a few ideas to electrify the Edinburgh Sub. The original plan was Freight Spine. Then there was new passenger services and lastly the link to Millerhill for emus. Only that one remains active. So maybe Hitachi should pay for it.

That said Slateford has plenty stabling facilities but would need a building and OHL. Probably a lor cheaper than electrification of the SUB.

 

[edwin_m]

There have been a few ideas to electrify the Edinburgh Sub. The original plan was Freight Spine. Then there was new passenger services and lastly the link to Millerhill for emus. Only that one remains active. So maybe Hitachi should pay for it.

While coal traffic has plummeted, last I heard intermodal freight on rail is still increasing. This is the type of traffic that might use the sub and the only type of freight that is likely to be electric-hauled.

The extra through platforms built at Waverley in the last decade have been at the expense of the former non-platform through lines north and south of the main group of platforms. So it must be much harder to get a freight through Waverley now.

 

[InOban]

It's not just access for Hitachi emus. It's also to allow ECML trains to access Waverley from the West when the eastern entrance is unavailable during the planned upgrades, and indeed to allow WCML trains to do the reverse.

BTW, I can remember 50 years ago watching the nightly Aberdeen to London Freightliner passing under a bridge on the sub near where I lived.