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Proposed new Channel Tunnel services discussion

TheWierdOne

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In other Chunnel news, the ORR has accepted Eurostar’s appeal over how LSPH allocated Virgin track access rights.


The Office of Rail and Road (ORR) has started a formal process which will look into the procedure followed by LSPH in relation to the allocation of HS1 track capacity.

Eurostar submitted an appeal within days of ORR pre-approving the agreement for Virgin to have HS1 pathsfrom October 2030. It accused LPSH of giving “special status” to Virgin and “unlawfully reserving capacity” for its future rival.
Describing the process as “non-transparent and unfair”, Eurostar said: “The position of (LSPH) amounts to the assertion that there is a ‘first come, first served’ regulatory obligation in respect of competing applications or requests for capacity but it is unable to point to any specific regulatory basis for this assertion.”
Representations must be made by October 2 with a decision due by December 4.
Well I bet that’s going to make the negotiations over Temple Mills access quite awkward. Eurostar seem to be claiming that LSPH made an error by not judging Virgin’s request against a potential future Eurostar request.

I’m no railway legal expert but I’d be surprised if that is sufficient to overturn the track access decision? Surely the onus is on Eurostar to get themselves sorted and make an application so they can have their plans considered first?
 
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zwk500

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In other Chunnel news, the ORR has accepted Eurostar’s appeal over how LSPH allocated Virgin track access rights.
Being pedantic (important in the legal realm!), is this the ORR agreeing to hear Eurostar's appeal, making no determination on the appeal itself?
 

TheWierdOne

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Being pedantic (important in the legal realm!), is this the ORR agreeing to hear Eurostar's appeal, making no determination on the appeal itself?
Sorry yes that is my fault, the ORR have agreed to investigate. The judgement is expected early December and parties involved have until Friday to make representations
 

Farigiraf

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SBB (Swiss National Railways) has apparently agreed to procure 21 high speed train sets with tender in first half of 2027 for International services. They will be bought not leased. Initial International services suggested include London and Barcelona.




With the need for most train services through Switzerland to fit into the national timetable, this does mean that the idea of clockface departures on the French LGV, rather than the current chaos of a timetable, is getting closer to reality, even if it has to be forced on them by another county's operator. TGV Lyria services already run on a fixed 0.5tph (to the minute) timetable, showing that it is possible on the LGV, so any trains to London, Spain or southern France would likely do as well. Although due to how long a London/Barcelona to Switzerland route would take, 21 trainsets wouldn't get you very high frequencies, especially if you also use them on German and Italian high speed routes.

Regarding fares & integration with other operators, it'd just add to the fire that is the fragmented high-speed network in France and Spain, but any new operator would have that effect so at least SBB's making the most of it. Though I hope they realise that charging Swiss prices on routes that only partially serve Switzerland isn't the best strategy even if the service offering is to a high quality. If you want to run a vehicle that shuttles Swiss tourists to the Mediterranean, that's what a plane is for, otherwise I'd expect them to recognise their role in serving shorter flows (like Barcelona to Montpellier) suitably and affordably, especially if they run regular, reliable services and not just 1-2 a day.

London services are a different ordeal but realistically you won't be filling a full train with business travellers so it'd make sense to have a few coaches reserved for intra-Schengen travellers e.g. Zurich to Lille or Marne-la-Vallee, where there's currently no good connection option due to Lyria requiring a Paris shuffle. Either way, this development and the planned Ilisto services are the two upcoming operators which I think are actual game changers, i.e. not just another abstracting budget operator running a few trains a day. How they fit all these passengers through St Pancras, I don't know, but utilising the full capacity of HS1 (and the LGVs) is the only way to get fares down for the time being.
 

Sorcerer

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In other Chunnel news, the ORR has accepted Eurostar’s appeal over how LSPH allocated Virgin track access rights.





Well I bet that’s going to make the negotiations over Temple Mills access quite awkward. Eurostar seem to be claiming that LSPH made an error by not judging Virgin’s request against a potential future Eurostar request.

I’m no railway legal expert but I’d be surprised if that is sufficient to overturn the track access decision? Surely the onus is on Eurostar to get themselves sorted and make an application so they can have their plans considered first?
I hope this doesn't throw a spanner in the works too much, but I think the fact the ORR agreed to investigate means there could be something sufficient enough to overturn the previous decision. If they rule against Virgin though, I would at least hope Eurostar would put forward their own alternative plans otherwise it just comes across as trying to maintain their monopoly and locking out competition. I know obviously that's in their interest as a private company but heavy anti-competitive practices never look good.
 

Transilien

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SBB (Swiss National Railways) has apparently agreed to procure 21 high speed train sets with tender in first half of 2027 for International services. They will be bought not leased. Initial International services suggested include London and Barcelona.
When is GBR launching its channel tunnel services? :lol:
 

Cach17

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When is GBR launching its channel tunnel services? :lol:
Perhaps when they realise that Eurostar don't give a *four-letter-word* about the Kent stations...

With ES throwing a hissy fit about Virgin, they deserve all the competition they can get.
 

TheWierdOne

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When is GBR launching its channel tunnel services? :lol:
BritStar? GreatStar? Perhaps Northstar for regional services?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I hope this doesn't throw a spanner in the works too much, but I think the fact the ORR agreed to investigate means there could be something sufficient enough to overturn the previous decision. If they rule against Virgin though, I would at least hope Eurostar would put forward their own alternative plans otherwise it just comes across as trying to maintain their monopoly and locking out competition. I know obviously that's in their interest as a private company but heavy anti-competitive practices never look good.
I think there is an element of Eurostar and the ORR covering themselves with this. It’s a very short time for both the time for representation and time taken to complete the whole thing. Eurostar will want to be able to say to their SNCF overlords that they have done everything possible to protect the monopoly, if not with all possible effort. The ORR, given how public this process has been, will want to be seen to be above reproach, so unless Eurostar raised something completely moronic, they would investigate at least to a surface level.
 

Sorcerer

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I think there is an element of Eurostar and the ORR covering themselves with this. It’s a very short time for both the time for representation and time taken to complete the whole thing. Eurostar will want to be able to say to their SNCF overlords that they have done everything possible to protect the monopoly, if not with all possible effort. The ORR, given how public this process has been, will want to be seen to be above reproach, so unless Eurostar raised something completely moronic, they would investigate at least to a surface level.
Quite possibly, we'll just have to wait and see I suppose. I think once a ruling takes place that might possibly be the end of the matter. Eurostar even without a monopoly will still dominate the market because of it's greater financial backing, so it's not like any competition will kill off their business.
 

martin2345uk

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I still think there's a lot of pie in the sky with Virgin.
Could they maybe team up with Trenitalia? Is there any precedent for such a thing?
 

Snow1964

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I still think there's a lot of pie in the sky with Virgin.
Could they maybe team up with Trenitalia? Is there any precedent for such a thing?
Virgin Atlantic (and Delta that it a partner) are part of the SkyTeam alliance.

Trenitalia have a MOU (memorandum of understanding) offering integrated rail-air travel that allows through booking with Skyteam partners.

So wouldn't be that big a leap to have a Virgin - Trenitalia tie-up
 

Sorcerer

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I still think there's a lot of pie in the sky with Virgin.
Could they maybe team up with Trenitalia? Is there any precedent for such a thing?
Theoretically, yes. I don't think Virgin necessarily need to partner up with an existing operator since they have the resources to raise their own capital, but I wouldn't rule out partnering with another European operator like Trenitalia France who are SNCF's main competitor on some high-speed routes. Given Eurostar is part SNCF, a new operator being part Trenitalia would just be an extension of this competition. That said I think Virgin (at least at first) will still aim to go it alone for now.
 

martin2345uk

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I just thought as Trenitalia will have their trains way before Virgin (have they placed their order?), maybe we could see Trenitalia trains with Virgin branding...
 

TheWierdOne

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Quite possibly, we'll just have to wait and see I suppose. I think once a ruling takes place that might possibly be the end of the matter. Eurostar even without a monopoly will still dominate the market because of it's greater financial backing, so it's not like any competition will kill off their business.
I agree, if the decision goes against Eurostar I would have thought that would be the end of any serious attempt to kill Virgin before they get going. Eurostar will either need to seriously up their game on existing routes, or try and preempt Virgin’s reputation for dynamism and get in on some new routes first such as Geneva or Frankfurt. I can see Eurostar trying to stop Trenitalia if they spot an opportunity but they’d have to have an exceptionally good reason to try through the ORR, who I imagine would take a dim view of having to waste time and money arbitrating Eurostar’s complaints again.
I still think there's a lot of pie in the sky with Virgin.
Could they maybe team up with Trenitalia? Is there any precedent for such a thing?
Extremely possible, although given that Virgin have British depot access secured, and an ORR mandate to boot, I think a Virgin-Trenitalia tie up is still less likely than them both launching independently. Neither actually need each other to launch services at this stage, unless Trenitalia can’t get track access in the UK or Virgin can’t get access in France. In that scenario I can see them very quickly climbing into bed with each other to leverage each other’s rights, if that is legally permissible.
 

Sorcerer

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I agree, if the decision goes against Eurostar I would have thought that would be the end of any serious attempt to kill Virgin before they get going. Eurostar will either need to seriously up their game on existing routes, or try and preempt Virgin’s reputation for dynamism and get in on some new routes first such as Geneva or Frankfurt. I can see Eurostar trying to stop Trenitalia if they spot an opportunity but they’d have to have an exceptionally good reason to try through the ORR, who I imagine would take a dim view of having to waste time and money arbitrating Eurostar’s complaints again.
I am confident that Eurostar will get to Geneva and Frankfurt before anyone else because they've already been in talks about it for years, and I believe have a memorandum of understanding with SBB to run them eventually. Virgin meanwhile still need to get the core routes between London, Paris, Brussels and Amsterdam approved on all sides, a market which Eurostar already has their hands in. Virgin really are the underdog here, but I suspect for Richard Branson that's good publicity.
 

signed

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My worry is none get up and running after nothing came of it in 2010 but I hope atleast one gets up and running.
FS seems to be fine eating 150+M€ worth of debt from the French operation.

Another like what 75-100M€ required for the channel service (not to count the new depot they are building so another 100M€ maybe for that) is likely to be nothing in that context.

Interestingly, they haven’t still, despite being legally required to, published their 2025 corporate accounts in France.

IMO, they won’t last more than a few years, they are already reducing French service as the track access subsidy has fully ran out.
 

TheWierdOne

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Well if there were any doubt about the Virgin-Alstom deal I’d say it’s fully confirmed now. Virgin have released the first renders of what their trains will look like. I must say I rather like the livery.

A render of the trains Virgin plans to use on European services. They have a flowing red and black livery, and the classic Virgin logo on the side of the leading carriage.

https://www.virgin.com/media-centre...f-new-cross-channel-service-planned-from-2030

Virgin has offered a first glimpse of its plans to reimagine cross-Channel travel, releasing a new image of a striking black and red train and sharing some early clues about what customers can expect on board.
Bringing the Virgin experience to cross-Channel rail

Virgin’s ambition is to bring the outstanding customer experience it is known for around the world to cross-Channel rail. It will draw on a proven playbook shared across more than 40 Virgin businesses, which together delight 45 million customers worldwide.

Virgin Atlantic’s Clubhouses will help inspire pre-departure and onboard social spaces, giving passengers more flexibility to work, relax or socialise in style. Virgin Voyages’ award-winning onboard dining will influence the food and drink offer, while Virgin Hotels’ focus on comfort and design will help inform the development of seating and onboard spaces.

Virgin’s loyalty platform, Virgin Red, will make journeys more rewarding, allowing passengers to earn Virgin Points and spend them on future journeys, flights, hotel stays, cruises and experiences.
And in other news, from the same release, although I cannae find anything on the ORR website.
  • The ORR has today published the signed agreement between Virgin and Eurostar to maintain its trains at the Temple Mills International depot in east London.
 

Tester

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Well if there were any doubt about the Virgin-Alstom deal I’d say it’s fully confirmed now. Virgin have released the first renders of what their trains will look like. I must say I rather like the livery.

View attachment 212999

https://www.virgin.com/media-centre...f-new-cross-channel-service-planned-from-2030



And in other news, from the same release, although I cannae find anything on the ORR website.
I really would have thought that it would be electric ;)
 

Transilien

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Well if there were any doubt about the Virgin-Alstom deal I’d say it’s fully confirmed now. Virgin have released the first renders of what their trains will look like. I must say I rather like the livery.

A render of the trains Virgin plans to use on European services. They have a flowing red and black livery, and the classic Virgin logo on the side of the leading carriage.
Are we now getting London-Italy services? :lol:
 

Cach17

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Well if there were any doubt about the Virgin-Alstom deal I’d say it’s fully confirmed now. Virgin have released the first renders of what their trains will look like. I must say I rather like the livery.



https://www.virgin.com/media-centre...f-new-cross-channel-service-planned-from-2030



And in other news, from the same release, although I cannae find anything on the ORR website.
Feeling nostalgic for the 90s, I see! All that's missing is the trio of white stripes...
 

danshrimp

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Perhaps the more interesting news on the Chunnel front is that moves are afoot regarding services to Köln Hbf. That is to say, the horrendously overworked station that Jon Worth thought London services would be impossible to run from.

Supposedly the plan is to install the ability to close off the southern half of platform 5 (enough for a 200m train, presumably) and access this via a new bridge from a terminal building outside the station. It's...bold. If they're really considering it, it's certainly a sign of how invested DB/the federal government/the state government are in this.


English translation:

Four daily flights from Cologne to London​

The high-speed rail link between Frankfurt, Cologne, and London is scheduled to go into operation by the mid-2030s at the latest. This will require modifications to the infrastructure in Cologne.

The plans have never been this concrete. From the mid-2030s, Eurostar and Deutsche Bahn are planning new direct high-speed train connections from Frankfurt/Main via Cologne to London.

For Cologne Central Station, which has been considered a bottleneck due to its high occupancy rate with long-distance trains, there is apparently a solution that allows passenger handling and boarding in an area secured for travelers.

According to the "Kölner Stadt-Anzeiger," Eurostar and Deutsche Bahn plan to operate services via platform 5. A bridge will connect the platform to a terminal building located outside the station hall.

With four daily connections, it is necessary to close the southern part of the platform half an hour before the departure of the London trains. After boarding and departure, the track is available again for regular long-distance traffic.

The foundation for a direct connection was laid by Deutsche Bahn 's long-distance division and Eurostar with a letter of intent signed at the end of 2025. The plan is to offer a joint long-distance service between London, Cologne, and Frankfurt as soon as all technical, operational, and legal requirements are met. "Eurostar will contribute its expertise in rail travel through the Channel Tunnel, while DB will contribute its competence as a network provider with a nationwide presence in Germany," reads a joint statement.

Fifty new Celestia trains from Eurostar are planned for the route, which will also run on the high-speed line between Cologne and Frankfurt. They will also serve the connections between London and Geneva, as well as Amsterdam/Brussels and Geneva. The trains are not yet available; the delivery date has been delayed by three years.

Eurostar will invest around two billion euros in its new train fleet, according to its own statements. Eurostar currently operates in five European countries: Great Britain, France, the Netherlands, and Belgium.


Travel time from Cologne under six hours​

Those involved agree that a direct train connection between Frankfurt and London via Cologne only makes economic sense if the trains actually stop there. The journey time between Cologne and London is expected to be between five and a half and six hours.


“All international connections operated by DB and Eurostar are running very well. London is a very popular destination. The total travel time is around five and a half hours, making it competitive with air travel, especially since the major London airports are located far outside the city center. St. Pancras International station is right in the heart of London,” says North Rhine-Westphalia's Transport Minister Oliver Krischer (Greens). “DB and Eurostar are optimistic that this will be financially viable. The federal government, DB InfraGo, and potentially the states of Hesse and North Rhine-Westphalia will, of course, also have to invest in the station's modernization.”


The CDU and the Greens in North Rhine-Westphalia included the project in their coalition agreement after the state elections in May 2022. However, the project only gained real momentum after the signing of a treaty on friendship and bilateral cooperation in mid-July 2025 by German Chancellor Friedrich Merz and the then British Prime Minister Keir Starmer. The treaty states that efforts are being made to "enable direct connections in long-distance rail passenger transport (...)."

After this contract was concluded, Eurostar publicly expressed its interest in operating this route. "This prompted Deutsche Bahn to take action. Both railway companies then contacted the Federal Ministry of Transport with the request to begin initial considerations and preliminary planning," says Krischer.


Establishment of border controls​

According to Eurostar, the initial steps have already been taken. "We have already begun preparing for the commissioning of the new routes with our infrastructure partners and the governments in Germany and Switzerland," the company stated in response to an inquiry. However, much work remains to be done, such as setting up border controls, providing personnel for passport processing, and securing slots on the high-speed rail lines in the participating countries. The plan is to offer four daily services between Frankfurt, Cologne, and London.

Deutsche Bahn confirms "close discussions regarding the establishment of a joint long-distance rail service between London and German cities." However, no decision has yet been made on a specific route. A spokesperson for the railway company stated that they are currently evaluating various implementation options for a potential stop at Cologne Central Station.
 

Peterthegreat

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Perhaps the more interesting news on the Chunnel front is that moves are afoot regarding services to Köln Hbf. That is to say, the horrendously overworked station that Jon Worth thought London services would be impossible to run from.

Supposedly the plan is to install the ability to close off the southern half of platform 5 (enough for a 200m train, presumably) and access this via a new bridge from a terminal building outside the station. It's...bold. If they're really considering it, it's certainly a sign of how invested DB/the federal government/the state government are in this.


English translation:
Thanks for posting I was reading that earlier.
I do think they have got the travel time wrong. London to Köln shouldn't take much more than four and a quarter hours. I suspect the 5 to 6 hours quoted is from London to Frankfurt (or possibly not taking into account the time difference!)
 

TheWierdOne

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Perhaps the more interesting news on the Chunnel front is that moves are afoot regarding services to Köln Hbf. That is to say, the horrendously overworked station that Jon Worth thought London services would be impossible to run from.

Supposedly the plan is to install the ability to close off the southern half of platform 5 (enough for a 200m train, presumably) and access this via a new bridge from a terminal building outside the station. It's...bold. If they're really considering it, it's certainly a sign of how invested DB/the federal government/the state government are in this.


English translation:
Well well well it is a fast news day for the Chunnel. As you say the Germans do seem to be very eager to be helpful on this front, I wonder why all of a sudden.
 

Snow1964

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Well well well it is a fast news day for the Chunnel. As you say the Germans do seem to be very eager to be helpful on this front, I wonder why all of a sudden.
Andy Burnham was in Germany yesterday, the Russian threat has moved the goalposts, and the view reading Germany news in English is that they want UK to be back close to Europe.

Apparently the view that Britain needs to penalised from Brexit has gone, and working to get closer ties back, is now the aim only German side (and personally I think Burnham understands the economic disaster from Brexit to)

My gut feeling is these are evidence of the initial physical rejoin plan, not that anyone dares announce Brexit reversal yet. Public need to slowly convert mindset though gradual improving the links between countries
 

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