Proposed new Channel Tunnel services discussion

[TheWierdOne]

In other Chunnel news, the ORR has accepted Eurostar’s appeal over how LSPH allocated Virgin track access rights.

Eurostar appeal over Virgin HS1 track access agreement accepted

Office of Rail and Road asking for representations after Eurostar complains about "unfair" process of London St Pancras Highspeed.

www.railmagazine.com

The Office of Rail and Road (ORR) has started a formal process which will look into the procedure followed by LSPH in relation to the allocation of HS1 track capacity.

Eurostar submitted an appeal within days of ORR pre-approving the agreement for Virgin to have HS1 pathsfrom October 2030. It accused LPSH of giving “special status” to Virgin and “unlawfully reserving capacity” for its future rival.

Describing the process as “non-transparent and unfair”, Eurostar said: “The position of (LSPH) amounts to the assertion that there is a ‘first come, first served’ regulatory obligation in respect of competing applications or requests for capacity but it is unable to point to any specific regulatory basis for this assertion.”

Representations must be made by October 2 with a decision due by December 4.

Well I bet that’s going to make the negotiations over Temple Mills access quite awkward. Eurostar seem to be claiming that LSPH made an error by not judging Virgin’s request against a potential future Eurostar request.

I’m no railway legal expert but I’d be surprised if that is sufficient to overturn the track access decision? Surely the onus is on Eurostar to get themselves sorted and make an application so they can have their plans considered first?

 

[zwk500]

In other Chunnel news, the ORR has accepted Eurostar’s appeal over how LSPH allocated Virgin track access rights.

Being pedantic (important in the legal realm!), is this the ORR agreeing to hear Eurostar's appeal, making no determination on the appeal itself?

 

[TheWierdOne]

Being pedantic (important in the legal realm!), is this the ORR agreeing to hear Eurostar's appeal, making no determination on the appeal itself?

Sorry yes that is my fault, the ORR have agreed to investigate. The judgement is expected early December and parties involved have until Friday to make representations

 

[Farigiraf]

SBB (Swiss National Railways) has apparently agreed to procure 21 high speed train sets with tender in first half of 2027 for International services. They will be bought not leased. Initial International services suggested include London and Barcelona.

https://www.railwaypro.com/wp/switzerland-decides-to-purchase-up-to-21-high-speed-trains/

With the need for most train services through Switzerland to fit into the national timetable, this does mean that the idea of clockface departures on the French LGV, rather than the current chaos of a timetable, is getting closer to reality, even if it has to be forced on them by another county's operator. TGV Lyria services already run on a fixed 0.5tph (to the minute) timetable, showing that it is possible on the LGV, so any trains to London, Spain or southern France would likely do as well. Although due to how long a London/Barcelona to Switzerland route would take, 21 trainsets wouldn't get you very high frequencies, especially if you also use them on German and Italian high speed routes.

Regarding fares & integration with other operators, it'd just add to the fire that is the fragmented high-speed network in France and Spain, but any new operator would have that effect so at least SBB's making the most of it. Though I hope they realise that charging Swiss prices on routes that only partially serve Switzerland isn't the best strategy even if the service offering is to a high quality. If you want to run a vehicle that shuttles Swiss tourists to the Mediterranean, that's what a plane is for, otherwise I'd expect them to recognise their role in serving shorter flows (like Barcelona to Montpellier) suitably and affordably, especially if they run regular, reliable services and not just 1-2 a day.

London services are a different ordeal but realistically you won't be filling a full train with business travellers so it'd make sense to have a few coaches reserved for intra-Schengen travellers e.g. Zurich to Lille or Marne-la-Vallee, where there's currently no good connection option due to Lyria requiring a Paris shuffle. Either way, this development and the planned Ilisto services are the two upcoming operators which I think are actual game changers, i.e. not just another abstracting budget operator running a few trains a day. How they fit all these passengers through St Pancras, I don't know, but utilising the full capacity of HS1 (and the LGVs) is the only way to get fares down for the time being.

 

[Sorcerer]

In other Chunnel news, the ORR has accepted Eurostar’s appeal over how LSPH allocated Virgin track access rights.

Eurostar appeal over Virgin HS1 track access agreement accepted

Office of Rail and Road asking for representations after Eurostar complains about "unfair" process of London St Pancras Highspeed.

www.railmagazine.com

Well I bet that’s going to make the negotiations over Temple Mills access quite awkward. Eurostar seem to be claiming that LSPH made an error by not judging Virgin’s request against a potential future Eurostar request.

I’m no railway legal expert but I’d be surprised if that is sufficient to overturn the track access decision? Surely the onus is on Eurostar to get themselves sorted and make an application so they can have their plans considered first?

I hope this doesn't throw a spanner in the works too much, but I think the fact the ORR agreed to investigate means there could be something sufficient enough to overturn the previous decision. If they rule against Virgin though, I would at least hope Eurostar would put forward their own alternative plans otherwise it just comes across as trying to maintain their monopoly and locking out competition. I know obviously that's in their interest as a private company but heavy anti-competitive practices never look good.

 

[Transilien]

SBB (Swiss National Railways) has apparently agreed to procure 21 high speed train sets with tender in first half of 2027 for International services. They will be bought not leased. Initial International services suggested include London and Barcelona.

When is GBR launching its channel tunnel services?

 

[Cach17]

When is GBR launching its channel tunnel services?

Perhaps when they realise that Eurostar don't give a *four-letter-word* about the Kent stations...

With ES throwing a hissy fit about Virgin, they deserve all the competition they can get.

 

[TheWierdOne]

When is GBR launching its channel tunnel services?

BritStar? GreatStar? Perhaps Northstar for regional services?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Sep 2026 ==

I hope this doesn't throw a spanner in the works too much, but I think the fact the ORR agreed to investigate means there could be something sufficient enough to overturn the previous decision. If they rule against Virgin though, I would at least hope Eurostar would put forward their own alternative plans otherwise it just comes across as trying to maintain their monopoly and locking out competition. I know obviously that's in their interest as a private company but heavy anti-competitive practices never look good.

I think there is an element of Eurostar and the ORR covering themselves with this. It’s a very short time for both the time for representation and time taken to complete the whole thing. Eurostar will want to be able to say to their SNCF overlords that they have done everything possible to protect the monopoly, if not with all possible effort. The ORR, given how public this process has been, will want to be seen to be above reproach, so unless Eurostar raised something completely moronic, they would investigate at least to a surface level.

 

[Sorcerer]

I think there is an element of Eurostar and the ORR covering themselves with this. It’s a very short time for both the time for representation and time taken to complete the whole thing. Eurostar will want to be able to say to their SNCF overlords that they have done everything possible to protect the monopoly, if not with all possible effort. The ORR, given how public this process has been, will want to be seen to be above reproach, so unless Eurostar raised something completely moronic, they would investigate at least to a surface level.

Quite possibly, we'll just have to wait and see I suppose. I think once a ruling takes place that might possibly be the end of the matter. Eurostar even without a monopoly will still dominate the market because of it's greater financial backing, so it's not like any competition will kill off their business.

 

[martin2345uk]

I still think there's a lot of pie in the sky with Virgin.
Could they maybe team up with Trenitalia? Is there any precedent for such a thing?

 

[Snow1964]

I still think there's a lot of pie in the sky with Virgin.
Could they maybe team up with Trenitalia? Is there any precedent for such a thing?

Virgin Atlantic (and Delta that it a partner) are part of the SkyTeam alliance.

Trenitalia have a MOU (memorandum of understanding) offering integrated rail-air travel that allows through booking with Skyteam partners.

So wouldn't be that big a leap to have a Virgin - Trenitalia tie-up

 

[Sorcerer]

I still think there's a lot of pie in the sky with Virgin.
Could they maybe team up with Trenitalia? Is there any precedent for such a thing?

Theoretically, yes. I don't think Virgin necessarily need to partner up with an existing operator since they have the resources to raise their own capital, but I wouldn't rule out partnering with another European operator like Trenitalia France who are SNCF's main competitor on some high-speed routes. Given Eurostar is part SNCF, a new operator being part Trenitalia would just be an extension of this competition. That said I think Virgin (at least at first) will still aim to go it alone for now.

 

[martin2345uk]

I just thought as Trenitalia will have their trains way before Virgin (have they placed their order?), maybe we could see Trenitalia trains with Virgin branding...

 

[TheWierdOne]

Quite possibly, we'll just have to wait and see I suppose. I think once a ruling takes place that might possibly be the end of the matter. Eurostar even without a monopoly will still dominate the market because of it's greater financial backing, so it's not like any competition will kill off their business.

I agree, if the decision goes against Eurostar I would have thought that would be the end of any serious attempt to kill Virgin before they get going. Eurostar will either need to seriously up their game on existing routes, or try and preempt Virgin’s reputation for dynamism and get in on some new routes first such as Geneva or Frankfurt. I can see Eurostar trying to stop Trenitalia if they spot an opportunity but they’d have to have an exceptionally good reason to try through the ORR, who I imagine would take a dim view of having to waste time and money arbitrating Eurostar’s complaints again.

I still think there's a lot of pie in the sky with Virgin.
Could they maybe team up with Trenitalia? Is there any precedent for such a thing?

Extremely possible, although given that Virgin have British depot access secured, and an ORR mandate to boot, I think a Virgin-Trenitalia tie up is still less likely than them both launching independently. Neither actually need each other to launch services at this stage, unless Trenitalia can’t get track access in the UK or Virgin can’t get access in France. In that scenario I can see them very quickly climbing into bed with each other to leverage each other’s rights, if that is legally permissible.

 

[martin2345uk]

Wonder how Virgin will approach language tuition for staff...

 

[Sorcerer]

I agree, if the decision goes against Eurostar I would have thought that would be the end of any serious attempt to kill Virgin before they get going. Eurostar will either need to seriously up their game on existing routes, or try and preempt Virgin’s reputation for dynamism and get in on some new routes first such as Geneva or Frankfurt. I can see Eurostar trying to stop Trenitalia if they spot an opportunity but they’d have to have an exceptionally good reason to try through the ORR, who I imagine would take a dim view of having to waste time and money arbitrating Eurostar’s complaints again.

I am confident that Eurostar will get to Geneva and Frankfurt before anyone else because they've already been in talks about it for years, and I believe have a memorandum of understanding with SBB to run them eventually. Virgin meanwhile still need to get the core routes between London, Paris, Brussels and Amsterdam approved on all sides, a market which Eurostar already has their hands in. Virgin really are the underdog here, but I suspect for Richard Branson that's good publicity.

 

[Mikey C]

Wonder how Virgin will approach language tuition for staff...

Plus the talking toilets will have to be multilingual too

 

[Citybreak1]

My worry is none get up and running after nothing came of it in 2010 but I hope atleast one gets up and running.

 

[signed]

My worry is none get up and running after nothing came of it in 2010 but I hope atleast one gets up and running.

FS seems to be fine eating 150+M€ worth of debt from the French operation.

Another like what 75-100M€ required for the channel service (not to count the new depot they are building so another 100M€ maybe for that) is likely to be nothing in that context.

Interestingly, they haven’t still, despite being legally required to, published their 2025 corporate accounts in France.

IMO, they won’t last more than a few years, they are already reducing French service as the track access subsidy has fully ran out.