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Porterbrook to create Pacer demonstrator (now unveiled)

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Rapidash

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Well, they already have the 'If travelling to St James's Park' announcements, so wouldn't be overly hard to add a few more stations to it. Or possibly just extend some platforms (D&S must be a prime candidate!)

And lets face it, who the hell uses Exton anyway :p Honestly can't remember the last time I saw anyone enter/exit the train there!





Looks at Wiki: Wait, what? How on earth does Exton get 20k passengers a year?!
 
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Parallel

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Well, they already have the 'If travelling to St James's Park' announcements, so wouldn't be overly hard to add a few more stations to it. Or possibly just extend some platforms (D&S must be a prime candidate!)

And lets face it, who the hell uses Exton anyway :p Honestly can't remember the last time I saw anyone enter/exit the train there!

Looks at Wiki: Wait, what? How on earth does Exton get 20k passengers a year?!

I've only ever made one return journey to Exmouth and both times passengers boarded and alighted at Exton. Wouldn't surprise me if 20,000 was a little inflated though with there being several Penalty Fare stations on the line. As it's a request stop FGW could just do local door opening.
 

Rhydgaled

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Presumably most or all of the changes suggested in this brochure:
www.porterbrook.co.uk/downloads/brochures/14x Brochure.pdf
Odd choice of destination on the artist's impressions in that document: Cardiff Central. Produced before ValleyLines electrification was announced?

I also feel that refurbished Pacers would be ideal trains to allow new services to be tested.
I have wondered in the past whether Pacers could be used to trial services in the Swansea area (eg. High Street - Bynea - Ammanford - Glanaman) but would be an isolated outpost for only a handful of Pacers.

How long are we going to continue squeezing the last dregs of life out of these blasted cattle trucks? Someone at the DfT needs to grow a pair and place a large order for a new class of DMU (3 - 6-car variants) to be ready in 5 or 6 years time. Worry about financing it later... someone can do some creative accounting or something.

Every million you spend on making a pacer marginally less repulsive is a wasted million that could have gone towards a new train.
I'm not sure that's entirely wise (the bit in bold that is). Given the amount of growth the 'no-growth' franchises have seen however I do think it is borderline that we will be able to get rid of all the 142s without making crowding worse in places. I wouldn't go mad with buying lots of new diesel units to replace Pacers, but a few may be required to avoid pain. All depends how fast electrification can proceed, and where, after CP5 I guess.

Personally, if there was a surplus of DMUs I'd start to withdraw the 150s. I know they're only 30 years old and not life expired but if the last Northern example I travelled on is anything to go by, they're really not that pleasant to travel on compared to newer trains. I'd sell a number to preservation and keep a few more as reserves and spare parts.
I can only guess, but they probably were only meant to last 30yrs. That's not to say that I think they should all be got rid of now, but I find ATW's 150s about as uncomfortable as their Pacers (not sure I've ever experienced the 'bounce' others talk about, must have only ridden them on good track). Ideally, both Pacers and 150s ought to be restricted to 1hr max journies, and the Pacers and 150/1s have lack of UEGs against them too.

draughty doors - particularly bad on early/late services in winter where the service can reach 75mph.
That may be a good point. I can't speak for Pacers, but I've seen bus doors (which look very similar to Pacer doors to me) almost blow open in bad weather at a much lower driving speed than 75mph.

It's worth remembering smaller orders cost more. Apparently the SRA tried to cut down the 185 order to 46 x 3 carriage trains (the number originally proposed was 54) but when Siemens said the price per unit was higher for orders under 50 trains, they decided the solution was to order 51 and to give TPE Manchester Airport-Blackpool (which was originally going to remain with Northern) rather than pay the higher price.
Maybe my idea, replacing the SWT diesel fleet with something like a UEG-equiped bi-mode 175 to start a cascade, isn't such a good plan then, since it'd probably be 40 units or less. Although I would suggest a similar unit without the diesel engines for TPE which could help matters.

So, as one idea, because Hitachi have clearly done that work, might they be able to supply a modified IEP for regional services? 3x26m, IEP engine layout with a smaller engine, door layout per the Class 395?
26m vehicles is a problem, not nearly 'go-anywhere' enough for a regional unit. Personally, I would say 23m and keep the end-door layout and aim for the regional express sector (eg. SWT as suggested above, or Cardiff-Portsmouth). The 158s released then replace 150s on longer-distance routes and hence you have 150s to replace Pacers. I imagine that any new DMU, even if engineered on a freight wagon underframe like the Pacer, would struggle to be cheaper than a 150 or 153 thus 150s and 153s are probably a better bet for Pacer replacement and the new units are better aimed at the more-premier routes.

Yes, because there's currently no such thing as a smaller engine.
Remember also that IEP has pretty hefty performance requirements. A smaller compliant engine that produces as many horsepower as the IEP engines might even be impossible, but if you only need to accelerate like a EMU when running on electric power couldn't you get away with a less-powerful diesel engine that's just enough to keep to 158/159 timings. 158s and 159s only have 350-400hp per car, alot less than the engines under an IEP (ok, a new unit will weigh a bit more and need a bit more power, but they wouldn't weigh THAT much more would they?).

may as well just buy some bi-mode IEP for XC and cascade some Voyagers, but then you are potentially cascading some expensive trains to secondary routes.
Indeed, Voyagers are not just more expensive per-coach either but also because more coaches could well be needed to provide the same capacity because the driving vehicles have so few seats and given the short length of the units there are rather alot of driving vehicles.

Please no more Hitachi products. They're so cosmetically boring!
I actually think cosmetics (aside from Hitachi's failure to embrace European door technology, until after the 800/801 was designed) are the one thing IEP has going for it. Not in 91/90/43(IC125) territory, but better looking than a 390. The artist's impressions of the new EMUs for ScotRail don't look too promising though.

Can't you build a train that is designed from the outset to make switching to electric as cheap and easy as possible n years down the line? At least you're then covered for any projects that slip, or unforeseen cascades etc.
That's partly what IEP is, the diesel engines are removable if no longer required later in life and your just left with a standard carriage, albeit one with a slightly higher floor than an Electric carriage.
Indeed, supposed to be possible in theroy with IEP. The only thing is how long do you require to recoup the investment in the diesel powerplants themselves before it is viable to remove them.
 

CC 72100

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The Schools diagram was 143+143+143 but is now booked 143+143+150. Could all change again in December

Was 143/143/143 the other night, although in my experience double pacer + 150 is the most common.
 

rebmcr

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The only thing is how long do you require to recoup the investment in the diesel powerplants themselves before it is viable to remove them.

Diesel engines are leased, and between leases they get remanufactured, before ending up in a different train, or even a lorry or a ship. It would be easy to send an engine back home and not request a replacement.
 

Rhydgaled

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Diesel engines are leased, and between leases they get remanufactured, before ending up in a different train, or even a lorry or a ship. It would be easy to send an engine back home and not request a replacement.
Then the question is, how long is the lease?
 

158722

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Said unit has moved to RVEL at the RTC site, Derby. Trial re-fit unit as promised by Porterbrook?
 

northwichcat

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Odd choice of destination on the artist's impressions in that document: Cardiff Central. Produced before Valley Lines electrification was announced?

That brochure did originally say "Class 143 Diesel Multiple Units" before it was updated to say "Class 143 & 144 Diesel Multiple Units" so Porterbrook could argue Cardiff is where 143s are currently used, so they used Cardiff in their brochure.

Although there were rumours Porterbrook backed delaying Valley Lines electrification until 2024 as that would allow modified 143s and 144s to be used on Valley Lines for long enough them to get their money back on the work.
 

Wolfie

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That brochure did originally say "Class 143 Diesel Multiple Units" before it was updated to say "Class 143 & 144 Diesel Multiple Units" so Porterbrook could argue Cardiff is where 143s are currently used, so they used Cardiff in their brochure.

Although there were rumours Porterbrook backed delaying Valley Lines electrification until 2024 as that would allow modified 143s and 144s to be used on Valley Lines for long enough them to get their money back on the work.

No worries. Northern or it's successor will need something to replace the 142s<D
 

Geeves

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144012 is now in Derby for life extension works till 2050 :lol::lol:

Seriously though im interested to see the finished product.
 

northwichcat

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No worries. Northern or it's successor will need something to replace the 142s<D

More likely 143s and 144s will replace 153s if they are reformed in to 155s.

I wouldn't be surprised if Porterbrook are hoping 2 x 153s can drop out of the Northern franchise so they can look at how much work would be involved in converting them back to 155s.
 

alexl92

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More likely 143s and 144s will replace 153s if they are reformed in to 155s.

I wouldn't be surprised if Porterbrook are hoping 2 x 153s can drop out of the Northern franchise so they can look at how much work would be involved in converting them back to 155s.

I've heard this idea bandied around quite a bit recently on this forum - how realistic actually is it, and where has it come from? It seems to have just appeared out of the blue in the past couple of weeks.

I'd have thought that a 153 would be too useful to reform into a 155 - single railcars are still used across the country.
 

Anvil1984

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I've heard this idea bandied around quite a bit recently on this forum - how realistic actually is it, and where has it come from? It seems to have just appeared out of the blue in the past couple of weeks.

I'd have thought that a 153 would be too useful to reform into a 155 - single railcars are still used across the country.

153s wont conform to the regulations either post 2019 so conversion to 155s is usually mentionned
 

northwichcat

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I've heard this idea bandied around quite a bit recently on this forum - how realistic actually is it, and where has it come from? It seems to have just appeared out of the blue in the past couple of weeks.

I'd have thought that a 153 would be too useful to reform into a 155 - single railcars are still used across the country.

Porterbrook undertook compliance assessments on their trains and decided making 153s complaint in single car formation was not economically viable. They said at the time they were looking at other options but didn't define those options. They haven't said they'll reform 155 but most people seem to think that's a more likely option than scrapping them all.

Since then they came up with a plan for an approx 80 seater complaint 143/4.

So as the complaint 143/4 will only have 10% more seats than a 153 it would seem ideal replacement for short services where a 153 is currently used and not much extra capacity is required.
 
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SpacePhoenix

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It was mention in a recent thread that the 153s might be structurally near to be being life expired so would need replacing and there was another 15x class that had corrosion issues, so that's potentially a lot of DMUs that need replacing. Probably a good replacement would be a redesigned turbostar (redesigned to meet all current and upcoming regs)
 

cjmillsnun

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Remember also that IEP has pretty hefty performance requirements. A smaller compliant engine that produces as many horsepower as the IEP engines might even be impossible, but if you only need to accelerate like a EMU when running on electric power couldn't you get away with a less-powerful diesel engine that's just enough to keep to 158/159 timings. 158s and 159s only have 350-400hp per car, alot less than the engines under an IEP (ok, a new unit will weigh a bit more and need a bit more power, but they wouldn't weigh THAT much more would they?).

158/9s will out-accelerate 22x trains and easily out-accelerate an HST, to the extent that neither could keep to the timings, given the number of stops on the WEML.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
To be fair, many of them are going to have corrosion issues. Even the 158s are a quarter of a century old.
 
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dgl

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surely the advantage the 158/9's have is that they're aluminium and shouldn't suffer any where near so bad with corrosion when compared to most older stock. and so should be able to last a fair bit longer (if engines don't become a problem)
 
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SpacePhoenix

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How many years life (realistically) have the engines got left in them of the 158s and 159s? If one was to have it's engine replaced would it get "grandfather rights" to have an engine that doesn't meet the current emissions regs?

The bodywork will have lots of life left, when you think how long a life London Underground trains have and they're made of alluminum
 

Domh245

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Engines get replaced pretty frequently on DMUs don't they? As such, any DMU today can keep on going until the bodyshell has gone - It would only be if someone (foolishly) decided that they wanted to fit a different type of engine to them that it wou;d have to comply with the new emission regulations, the only forseeable situation where this would happen would be if the engine ceases to be supported the manufacturer, but I don't think that'll happen for a *looooong* time
 

Murph

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Engines get replaced pretty frequently on DMUs don't they? As such, any DMU today can keep on going until the bodyshell has gone - It would only be if someone (foolishly) decided that they wanted to fit a different type of engine to them that it wou;d have to comply with the new emission regulations, the only forseeable situation where this would happen would be if the engine ceases to be supported the manufacturer, but I don't think that'll happen for a *looooong* time

Yeah, full engine swap should be a routine maintenance procedure. One of the TV documentaries a while ago showed them quickly and easily swapping out a Perkins 2006-TWH on a 165. As long as there's still a reasonable pool of engines and the manufacturers are happy to keep rebuilding them, the engine should not be a major limiting factor on longevity. In the case of that particular model of engine, you can still get spares for the much older (but very similar) Perkins 6.354.

There's no real reason for the engine manufacturers to drop support for the older engines as long as they still have customers asking for it. They just scale down the operations for older models over time as demand drops, and it doesn't really cost all that much to keep the various bits of specialist tooling and documentation around. For example, MAN were still supporting the Deltic into the 21st century. It can be a major self-inflicted black eye for them if they drop support too soon, as that's going to push some their customers to other manufacturers.
 

WatcherZero

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How many years life (realistically) have the engines got left in them of the 158s and 159s? If one was to have it's engine replaced would it get "grandfather rights" to have an engine that doesn't meet the current emissions regs?

The bodywork will have lots of life left, when you think how long a life London Underground trains have and they're made of alluminum

I believe the regs say that you can carry on using the old engines (repairing, replacing) but if you significantly reengineered them (fitted a brand new engine) they would have to meet modern standards.
 

fgwrich

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I believe the regs say that you can carry on using the old engines (repairing, replacing) but if you significantly reengineered them (fitted a brand new engine) they would have to meet modern standards.

As far as I know, that is correct. Interestingly I gather GBRf have found another loophole in the emissions laws that has allowed them to order another batch of 66s - Just as long as the engines were built before Jan 1st. So rather than modify any of their engines, they will be sticking to the old standard EMD engines (and reusing the engine from 66734). Not fully related to this talk about a pacer but as we were talking about engines.


Yeah, full engine swap should be a routine maintenance procedure. One of the TV documentaries a while ago showed them quickly and easily swapping out a Perkins 2006-TWH on a 165. As long as there's still a reasonable pool of engines and the manufacturers are happy to keep rebuilding them, the engine should not be a major limiting factor on longevity. In the case of that particular model of engine, you can still get spares for the much older (but very similar) Perkins 6.354.

There's no real reason for the engine manufacturers to drop support for the older engines as long as they still have customers asking for it. They just scale down the operations for older models over time as demand drops, and it doesn't really cost all that much to keep the various bits of specialist tooling and documentation around. For example, MAN were still supporting the Deltic into the 21st century. It can be a major self-inflicted black eye for them if they drop support too soon, as that's going to push some their customers to other manufacturers.

MAN have been a funny company at times, one of the reasons for the TOCs choosing MTU Engines over the VP185 engine was down to the then lack of support being provided by Alstom and laterally now MAN. That said I gather support has now recently improved somewhat and MAN are being far more supportive.

Another company still prepared to provide support to older Locos are both MTU and Voith - I believe you can still pick up parts from the two manufactures to fit to a Class 42 or 52 for example.

As for engines under most DMUs, LH Group services provide most of the support for the majority of the ex BR DMUs with parts still being provided by Cummins or Progress Rail Services (Perkins) - Although most of the engines are overhauled by LH Group at Burton.

As an aside, I'm not sure how the SWT & Poterbrook plans are currently progressing with the trial re-geared SWT 158 - It has been back out in service recently, but the ZF Self Changing Gears seem to be giving it a much jerkier ride than the original Voith T211 set up, and the talk about re engining the fleet with newer fuel efficient engines seem to have gone quiet.
 

SpacePhoenix

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As an aside, I'm not sure how the SWT & Poterbrook plans are currently progressing with the trial re-geared SWT 158 - It has been back out in service recently, but the ZF Self Changing Gears seem to be giving it a much jerkier ride than the original Voith T211 set up, and the talk about re engining the fleet with newer fuel efficient engines seem to have gone quiet.

Has it been doing the Lymington branch or the Waterloo-Exeter route?
 

edwin_m

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I believe the regs say that you can carry on using the old engines (repairing, replacing) but if you significantly reengineered them (fitted a brand new engine) they would have to meet modern standards.

The regulations attach to the engine not the train. So you can carry on reconditioning the old engine indefinitely and even fit it to a new train, but if an existing train gets a new engine it will have to comply with the new regulations.
 

Emyr

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...if an existing train gets a new engine it will have to comply with the new regulations.

To clarify, if an existing train gets a new engine, the new regulations that apply to engines apply, or the whole train becomes governed by the new regulations?
 
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