No, it wasn't. It stopped being valid as soon as she overtravelled. It also failed to be an acceptable permit to travel because there was ample opportunity for the ticket to get excessed beforehand. Does common sense dictate that you travel on a dodgy ticket rather than ask the on board conductor for help?
You're basically saying that it's acceptable to bend the rules to suit yourself which I do not agree with. It's not like there were no retail staff to verify and rectify the situation for the customer for any duration of the journey. It is quite clear on Penalty Fare posters that overtravelling means one may be liable to pay a Penalty Fare.
No, you have misunderstood. I meant her destination being Birmingham International. I agree that the OP has fallen foul of the badly written PF rules and is technically liable to be PF'd. I suspect, though, that any prosecution would not succeed in court because there has been no loss to the TOC. I also put it to you that the fact that someone can be worse off when they have actually bought a ticket, shows that the PF system is not working correctly. Most people would understand that a PF is supposed to be a deterrent to boarding a train without having bought a ticket first. In this instance, it is a deterrent to buying a ticket at all. How can this be defended?
Interstingly, what is the definition of over travelled? Does it mean travelling further than the stations printed on the ticket? Could it be argued that it means traveleling beyond the fare which has been paid? That's probably best left for the lawyers, but if there were a zonal fare system then the OP would not have over travelled, assuming that University and Selly Oak were in the same zone. Which they should be given, the fare is the same.
It would have been worse to get no ticket, because you couldn't, than to get a ticket for the same value.
In fact, I'd have thought that this was using initiative, as should there have been nobody on the train or at the end station to swap it for the right ticket (at no charge), nobody would have lost out financially.
Most people would surely have not bothered to get a ticket, and indeed - had the OP done this too, she might have been okay! As there was no way to get the correct ticket and therefore the ticket could be bought at the first available opportunity, which may have been when the guard came along or at the final stop, the PF may not have been issued at all.
Exactly! I;m sure she will agree with hindisght that she should have got on without a ticket and bought one at Birmingham International on the way home, although she might have missed her train while queuing up!
In the case of the OP, she would have been better off to have no ticket at all - she's out the 4 quid for trying to do the right thing and buy a ticket that had an equivalent price to the one she needed... I guess the PF backers want it to work out this way.
Next time she knows better than try and do what seems to be the right thing if she's stuck at a closed booking office and the TVM won't issue the ticket she wants and isn't sure what to do!
It's been a very expensive lesson for her, and one which hardly shows the railway in a positive light. But, as I keep saying it suits the TOC's, who don;t care about such injustices when they look at their balance sheet and dividends.
What common sense ought to dictate is that it's reasonable to believe that because you have paid the correct fare for the journey you will be ok. I also find it interesting that several posters are stressing that the OP could have asked the guard on any of the four trains she travelled on. As far as I can tell, none of those journeys were longer than ten minutes in duration. It's more than likely that the OP didn't actually see any of the four guards.
Reading some of the replies to this thread makes me want to repeat the journey made by the OP without the means to pay anything after purchasing the original ticket with cash. I'd then appeal and let them take me to court if they didn't back down. Before the court case I'd ensure that every national newspaper was aware of the case.
I hope the OP uses the media to focus more attention on the effect these ill thought out schemes have in the real world.
If I had been in the same scenario, the first thing I'd have done would have been to find the conductor. I'm interested in covering myself.
I often make a journey from St Mary Cray to Swanley, then Swanley to Catford. The cheapest legitimate option is a return Catford to
Swanley.
It is pot luck whether the ticket office at St Mary Cray is open at that time (~18:20). It is also pot luck whether there is a conductor on the train I use to get from Victoria to St Mary Cray (using Oyster PAYG). 90% of the time, there isn't. On the one occasion there was, I was shocked when he came through the train and I bought a Catford - Swanley return off him with a Railcard discount. Whilst this was very much the exception to the rule, do London Midland not have a conductor on every one of their Cross City services? A regular traveller on the Cross City would know this so the argument they might not know the conductor is there goes out of the window.
In the likely event I can't buy the return ticket at St Mary Cray ticket office, in line with the NCoC I buy a return from the TVM to Swanley and get the return portion excessed to Catford at Swanley ticket office. It doesn't take a ticketing expert to know that this can be done, all one has to do is ask a member of retail staff. Probably a good idea if £20 is at stake.
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So a ticket selling conductor does not count as an adequate facility to purchase a ticket in your eyes. The way I see it, when I'm getting on a train, I am seeking a specific service from the TOC(s). Therefore it's down to me to make sure I am holding a valid ticket.
I've travelled the length and breadth of the country over the last few years. I have never been Penalty Fared for having an invalid ticket. Surprise surprise, I always get an appropriate ticket that covers me start to finish at the earliest possible opportunity, mostly at stations, sometimes from conductors. As a customer, I've never experienced a conductor who has turned me away when I've requested a ticket so please do tell why you feel that they are not adequate enough to provide you with a ticket?
I'm pretty sure conductors report to control when they have been unable to issue tickets due to equipment failure/overcrowding. I'm sure RPIs can verify this to establish whether or not you *could* have bought a ticket.
Presumably your interest in railways has enabled you to know precisely what rights and responsibilities and you have read a lot about penalty fares. After all, you are an active member on a railway forum. How many othe rpeople do you think have such a depth of knowledge? Listen to the vast majority of people talking at stations, or on trains and you will soon appreciate that their knowledge and understanding of the vagaries of ticketing are far less than ours.
The OP is an excellent illustration of this. The two stations, Selly Oak and University are close together. The fares from University, Selly Oak and Five Ways to Birmingham International are the same. The OP therefore assumes that the ticket will be valid to return to any of them, as it is eacatly the same price. She is almost right, for she could, of course, have got off anywhere on the way back as long as she didn;t go further than University.
Why should the OP seek a conductor? She has done what she thought is the right thing and bought a ticket that is the same price as the one she normally buys. She doesn';t think there is anything else she needs to do! She doesn't know about excessing a ticket, or zero fares, as most people don't.
And, to finish off, please answer these specific questions:
Do you as a customer think it's right that it's very hit and miss whether the ticket office is open or not? Shouldn't it be either open or closed, according to the advertised opening times?
Do you think that the customer, like yourself in your example should be inconvenienced by having to excess the only ticket they could buy simply because the TOC cannot be bothered to provide sufficient staff, either on trains or at stations?
Do you think it's right that ticket offices should close whilst staff undertake cleaning duties or despatch trains?
