Penalty Fare advice - please help!

[222007]

Chances are if you argued enough, they'd get fed up and let you go if they weren't sure of what to do and still think they were right.

If they didn't, you'd be continuing to argue until you paid up or demanded they called the police. I am sure they couldn't hold you there forever!

I love passengers like this because if there was any doubt in my mind by arguing with me its actually going to cement my decision. And actually someone who argues is only making themself's look like a wolly. Actually in this situation i've had other passengers jump in and argue with said scroat never argue there case but then my TOC doesnt do penalty fares

 

[Mojo]

In the event that a ticket examiner is incorrect, and the passenger knows it, I would hope and expect that they would argue. Of course I would hope that they were never incorrect, but "staff are only human" (hmm, where have I heard that before ).

 

[jon0844]

We're talking about some RPIs who have given PFs to people who had a problem with their Oyster card (an error on the part of TfL), someone who couldn't physically get the right ticket from a TVM and bought one of the same value and myself, where I was given a PF in a situation where I should have been sold a ticket extension, with full discount.

In all of these cases, I'd wonder what would happen if in all cases you stood firm and refused to take the PF. I think that next time this happens to me (if) then I'll happily stay all night if necessary, or wait for BTP to be called and explain to them. In fact, I'd allow myself to be arrested if necessary (except I'm not sure what grounds they could arrest me!).

Now if an RPI wasn't entirely sure of the situation, they'd go check wouldn't they? If they insist they're right no matter what, that's where you'd expect the arguing. In my case, it wasn't arguing where there was any threat of violence, no personal insults or anything like that - just an argument in the literal sense where we each disagree. Nothing wrong with that. If something did get out of hand, then I'd fully expect the police to intervene.

 

[b0b]

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23731140-fare-dodgers.do

Politely refuse to pay the penalty and simply pay the full single fare.

On the train or at the station, you have the absolute right to make only "a minimum payment that is equal to the full single fare which [you] would have had to pay for [your] journey if penalty fares had not applied." This is section 8 (2) of the Penalty Fares Rules 2002 - quote it if anyone tries to tell you different.

 

[Deerfold]

I love passengers like this because if there was any doubt in my mind by arguing with me its actually going to cement my decision. And actually someone who argues is only making themself's look like a wolly. Actually in this situation i've had other passengers jump in and argue with said scroat never argue there case but then my TOC doesnt do penalty fares

So there's no possibility that you could *ever* be wrong and a passenger right?

 

[yorkie]

I love passengers like this because if there was any doubt in my mind by arguing with me its actually going to cement my decision. And actually someone who argues is only making themself's look like a wolly. Actually in this situation i've had other passengers jump in and argue with said scroat never argue there case but then my TOC doesnt do penalty fares

Not advisable, because you will only make yourself look a fool and you will have to explain to your manager why you pursued an incorrect course of action. I also wouldn't advise call passengers who have paid the correct fare "scroats" otherwise you will end up facing disciplinary action and any decent company will not tolerate that.

 

[Ivo]

You said it yourself though: Any DECENT company will not tolerate that.

How many TOCs can be considered decent companies? As an example, you recently called FCC a "dodgy" company.

 

[yorkie]

Well I'd like to think most are decent. There has to be serious concerns with FCC though, as the infamous inspector in the jonmorris0844 case, is still up to no good and attempting to issue PFs incorrectly. In a decent company such a person would not be allowed to continue to do this. It is clear there is a lot of discontent among regular FCC users of the service, here is an example spoof video.

 

[Greenback]

I love passengers like this because if there was any doubt in my mind by arguing with me its actually going to cement my decision. And actually someone who argues is only making themself's look like a wolly. Actually in this situation i've had other passengers jump in and argue with said scroat never argue there case but then my TOC doesnt do penalty fares

You would make yourself look like a 'wolly' if, when confornted with someone who diisagreed with what you said, you refused to double check your information and truned out to be wrong. Or are you saying that you are 100% right all the time? The routeing, fares and ticketing systems are so complex I'd be amazed if anyone has memorised every possible restriction and every permitted route. Sometimes, staff briefs are msileading or unclear, and the threads on this forum are full of examples where staff have made a mistake, quite understnadably given how complex things are. What annoys people is when staff refuse to check things, or when their manager also gets it worng!

All we are asking is that where there is a disagreement, the member of staff should check their information is correct, and, if necessary, show it to the customer. This will, in the majority of cases, clear things up one way or the other. I can't see how obstinacy is going to help.

 

[jon0844]

I haven't said FCC is a dodgy company. I think they generally get things right. I won't judge a whole company on the actions of one or two members of staff.

 

[talltim]

In a variation of the OP's journey, how does it work if she had originally intended to make the standard return journey and only on the train decided that she wanted to go a stop further on the way back. In this case the only chance to excess/buy a single before/during the extra journey would be from the conductor, if they could be found.
Should she then have been PFed?

 

[yorkie]

In a variation of the OP's journey, how does it work if she had originally intended to make the standard return journey and only on the train decided that she wanted to go a stop further on the way back. In this case the only chance to excess/buy a single before/during the extra journey would be from the conductor, if they could be found.
Should she then have been PFed?

On Oyster PAYG from BZ6 to Watford Jn? Going one stop further than Watford Jn? She would have to get off at Watford Jn and buy a new paper ticket.

If she found the guard and got a paper ticket, she would be valid but would pay more for the PAYG journey due to not touching out at Watford Jn.

And yes, a PF could be given if she did not get a ticket for onward travel before reaching Watford Jn.

 

[talltim]

Err, no. The Birmingham/Selly Oak journey that the OP posted about

 

[222007]

Just to add to my comments i dont take action against anyone who has not committed an offence and yes as people say i have a phone to check on things and will always endeavor to do this. Maybe 'scroat' was the wrong choice of words and i apologize for any offence caused to any member here

 

[yorkie]

Err, no. The Birmingham/Selly Oak journey that the OP posted about

Ooops - I thought this was on the other topic. But the point still stands; you're valid if a ticket is bought from guard before the station your original ticket is valid to. And if you don't, you can get a PF.

Edit: to anyone wondering what the result was, the appeal was not successful.