Penalty Fare advice - please help!

[jenny121]

Hello,

I need some advice regarding a penalty fare I received on 17th June 2010 in Birmingham for travelling beyond the destination the return ticket covered.

I am a student at University of Birmingham but work part time in the NEC centre in Birmingham International. I therefore often travel to Birmingham International from Selly Oak station (where I live) and the fee is £4 for a return - or less if I am travelling offpeak and use my Young Persons Railcard.

On one particular morning I had to go to University to get my exam results and so travelled to Birmingham International from there. It is exactly the same fare for a return to Birmingham International from University as it is from Selly Oak (£4). It is also the same price for a lot of other stops, possibly all (including Birmingham New Street, Five Ways etc) and I can only assume it is because of the very close location of the two stations.

There was no option to buy a return to Selly Oak, and so, I bought the return to University, knowing that, although Selly Oak was one stop further, I would have paid exactly the same fare had I bought the ticket from Selly Oak (which was the case on many previous days).

Upon my arrival at Selly Oak station at 16.15pm I was greeted by a team of 7 or 8 (no exaggeration) of train officers who demanded I pay £20 as I had gone beyond the station my ticket was meant for. I explained to them that I had paid the correct fare and had not cheated the system in any way or tried to get out of paying the correct amount but they refused to listen and just told me to appeal. Selly Oak has no barriers and at least 5 other people who got off the same train as I did were being fined, I know for a fact that at least one of them had made the same 'mistake' as I had.

I did appeal, expressing my anger that it is ridiculous that the same fine (£20) applies to those travelling without a ticket at all and myself who had paid the correct and legitimate fare and yet was penalised because on the ticket it said return to 'University' not 'Selly Oak', a stop that is two minute train journey away, and the same fare. I wrote in the letter that if the rail administration wanted to impose fines on those who travel from University instead of Selly Oak and vice versa then they must differentiate the ticket prices, otherwise it is a scam to make money.

However I received a standard letter reply saying that the fine remained. £20 is a lot of money to me and I just wanted to know, can I keep appealing? Or is my only option to pay the fine? Am I in the right?

Thanks very much,

Jenny


Edit: to anyone wondering what the result was, the appeal was not successful.

 

[222007]

Unfortunately they are technically correct. One way around the issue would have been to locate the guard on the train and ask him to extend your ticket for you as the fare is the same it would cost you nothing

 

[transportphoto]

You bought a Ticket from a TVM?

There is always the option to buy to any national rail station - you just need to press the 'other destinations' button & type in the destination station.

If you could not (for some strange reason) do this then you should have traveled to New Street and Excessed the ticket to Selly Oak there*. Price to pay £0.00 extra.

In all it is your fault for not obtaining the correct ticket for the journey you made & therefore it is unlikely that the appeal will be accepted.

* or as 222007 says ask an on-board guard on either of the services for the 'zero excess'.

 

[jenny121]

no, there was not an option to buy a return ticket to Birmingham International from University and back to Selly Oak. I would have had to buy two singles, costing more than the £4 return from either Selly Oak or University.

ok guess I'd better pay up if im in the wrong them. Seems like such a petty/trivial thing to place a £20 fine on considering I didnt cost the rail company any money as I paid the correct fare. grrr

also i have never heard of zero excess so I guess thats why i didnt do it! know now though thanks.

 

[transportphoto]

Sorry, I mis-understood you!

There is always the ticket office you know you don't have to use the TVM's!

From there they could sell you a return ticket from Selly Oak to International in which on the outward you could have started short at Uni!

----

Unfortunately still - you would have to pay!

 

[amn140174]

You bought a Ticket from a TVM?

There is always the option to buy to any national rail station - you just need to press the 'other destinations' button & type in the destination station.

Not sure if im picking this up wrong but if the OP bought a return at University and went into the 'other destinations' option and typed in Selly Oak is this not what you would be sold.

The way im picking it up the OP bought a return ticket at university to Birmingham International but wanted to return to selly oak.

 

[scotsman]

In future, try buying the two singles and try claim it back off LM for not providing the correct fare.

 

[jenny121]

unfortunately only one (possibly two.. cant remember now) ticket office at university station and it is nearly always shut. and it was at the time in question.

 

[transportphoto]

Not sure if im picking this up wrong but if the OP bought a return at University and went into the 'other destinations' option and typed in Selly Oak is this not what you would be sold.

The way im picking it up the OP bought a return ticket at university to Birmingham International but wanted to return to selly oak.

Sorry amn140174 = as you wouldn't have seen my post!

I got confused and for some reason thought that she was buying from International, der - silly me!

But still my point stands that there is a ticket office - EDIT No it doesn't cause at that same minute jenny121 posted that that was closed !

-----
EDIT again!

However you can complain that the office was not open during the times specified on this page [stn]UNI[/stn], therefore stopping you buying the appropriate ticket!

 

[jenny121]

whats lm?

 

[transportphoto]

whats lm?

LM - abbreviation for the Train Operating Company (TOC), London Midland.

 

[Ferret]

whats lm?

London Midland, the TOC that's just chinged you 20 quid. Technically they are in the right, but it's a bit ridiculous when the excess fare would be sweet fa. Don't know if an email to Passenger Focus would help?

 

[MikeWh]

You bought a Ticket from a TVM?

There is always the option to buy to any national rail station - you just need to press the 'other destinations' button & type in the destination station.

If you could not (for some strange reason) do this then you should have traveled to New Street and Excessed the ticket to Selly Oak there*. Price to pay £0.00 extra.

In all it is your fault for not obtaining the correct ticket for the journey you made & therefore it is unlikely that the appeal will be accepted.

* or as 222007 says ask an on-board guard on either of the services for the 'zero excess'.

I think you've slightly misunderstood. She bought a return from University to International from the TVM. There was no option to start the journey at Selly Oak instead so that the return journey would be ok. I've never seen a TVM at stations that allows you to purchase tickets from anywhere other than the station you're at. Perhaps you know different, but I've never seen one.

Sadly, I have to agree that by the letter of the law you did not have the correct ticket for the journey you made. However, as you rightly say, you were not intending to defraud the railway and therefore it would have been nice if away from the high pressure fare evasion operation someone might have shown compassion. I don't think that there is any point in appealing again, but there might be some mileage in sending your story to some local media: newspapers, tv, radio, student union. Perhaps the TOC might want to avoid some bad press. Stress the fact that you had paid exactly the same fare as you would have needed to for your ticket to be valid and thus you were in no way trying to evade your fare.

For the future do take note of the suggestions on here. You could get the ticket extended while you wait at New Street, or even ask for it to be done before you start back from International. It won't cost a penny.

Edit: I see the misunderstanding has been covered now.

 

[amn140174]

Jenny,

LM = London Midland, the train/station operator.

Although I can see you have made a simple mistake due to not thinking it was wrong due to it being the same fare.

Can you not have a word with the Student union to see if they can help, they might have had something like this before and know a person higher up the ladder to help you out.

I think penalty fares whould be for people that are defrauding the operator and not for people making a mistake.

 

[Mojo]

I think penalty fares whould be for people that are defrauding the operator and not for people making a mistake.

I disagree - prosecution should be for people who are defrauding the operator. Penalty fares are a waste of space.

I am of the opinion that the OP should contact Passenger Focus in relation to their penalty fare and declined appeal; after all I believe this is the next step in the chain. Had the ticket office at University been open as per its advertised opening hours then the OP could have requested a Selly Oak to Birmingham Intl ticket and would not have had this issue. In the future though it is worth the OP noting that at any intermediate station en-route the ticket office staff are able to issue an overdistance excess; in this instance for £0.

Contact details for Passenger Focus here: http://www.passengerfocus.org.uk/advice-and-complaints/

 

[Greenback]

Once again, we see a situation where a passenger with no intent to defraud the railway or avoid the fare is penalised.

It is not the OP's fault that the ticket office was not open at University.
It is not the OP's fault that TVM's can't issue tickets from other stations.
It is not the OP's fault that excesses are largely a mystery to most customers.
It is not the OP's fault that UK ticketing is a complex minefield of rules seemingly designed to catch people out.

Meanwhile, serial fare evaders continue to get away with most of their journeys, happily paying out the odd £20 when they get caught, knowing they will save money over a longer period.

The whole system stinks, and I am sickened by it.

 

[mathmo]

In future, try buying the two singles and try claim it back off LM for not providing the correct fare.

I would say this advice is incorrect - what you should have done is gone to the ticket office at Birmingham International (or the guard on one of your trains, though you wouldn't have had much time to do that, so probably not) and asked for an "overdistance excess" to Selly Oak, which would have cost you nothing. Alternatively, if the ticket office at University is open, just ask for a Selly Oak to Birmingham International return. If the ticket office at Birmingham International was closed (it shuts at 9pm, so I guess so) then you have a valid argument as to why you couldn't obtain that excess. But (sadly) I'd be surprised if they accept an appeal on those grounds.

I agree with Greenback - the whole system is a mess...

 

[jenny121]

Ok thanks everyone, had a look at the Passenger Focus website so might try that. All seems like a big hassle and stress for £20 but I feel like I shouldn't have been fined!

Know I possibly didn't go through the right procedure but I paid the correct amount, and theyre catching me out on a technicality - finding any excuse to fine everyone!

 

[thewolf]

Similar thing has happened to me before, although I got away with it, as it were.

When travelling to/from university in Stoke, when I came home for the weekend, I quite often got a lift to New Street so ended up with a Birmingham - Stoke return. On the way home, I come back to Hamstead - it's the same fare, but obviously a different station.

On occasions, the guard would come along and check and although they usually said I should really go to the ticket office at New Street and get it excessed, it was no real issue. One afternoon, the revenue protection heavies were on the train and I was expecting a big fuss, like the OP experienced, however they showed some common sense which is always a nice surprise

However, if I had been collared by them for £20, I would be far from pleased seeing how it's the same price.

 

[455driver]

I usually have very little sympathy for people who get penalty fared but in your case, where the loss to the company was zero, I DO have sympathy. If ever there was a time for a TOC to use the "good will gesture" then this is it.

Although it is a lot of aggro for £20, in this case it is worth fighting because, although technically you were over distance, there was no loss to the company and no intention on your part to defraud. The fare you paid was correct for the journey made so therefore there was absolutely no need for the penalty fare.

Sadly this is indicative of the "zero discretion" that RPIs have been told to enforce and is absolutely the wrong way to treat decent passengers.

Contact Passenger Focus, explain the whole situation (especially the correct fare bit) and this should go away with hopefully some form of compensation for the undue stress caused to yourself, good luck.

I agree with the others, the fare structure is NOT fit for purpose and needs binning and starting again with a blank sheet of paper.

 

[yorkie]

I think penalty fares whould be for people that are defrauding the operator and not for people making a mistake.

Penalty fares are for people making a mistake.
People who are defrauding are (in theory) prosecuted.

Penalty fares should not exist.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I would say this advice is incorrect - what you should have done is gone to the ticket office at Birmingham International (or the guard on one of your trains, though you wouldn't have had much time to do that, so probably not) and asked for an "overdistance excess" to Selly Oak, which would have cost you nothing. Alternatively, if the ticket office at University is open, just ask for a Selly Oak to Birmingham International return. If the ticket office at Birmingham International was closed (it shuts at 9pm, so I guess so) then you have a valid argument as to why you couldn't obtain that excess. But (sadly) I'd be surprised if they accept an appeal on those grounds.

I agree entirely with this.

Just to add, if the ticket office at Birmingham International was closed, and the guard didn't come through the train, a £0.00 excess should have been bought at Birmingham New St if, and only if, there was sufficient time to do so without delaying the journey. If there wasn't, there is absolutely no compulsion to delay yourself and you are free to board the next train. If there is then no opportunity to get the £0 excess on the next train, then approach the ticket office at the destination, if there is one.

jenny121 - If you can answer 'no' to all of the following, you should be able to successfully appeal IMO:-

* Was the ticket office at Birmingham Intl open when you commenced your return journey?
* Did a guard come through the train offering to sell/check tickets?
* Did you have about 15 or more minutes to change trains at Birmingham New St?

 

[nedchester]

The problem is that TOCs now treat all their passengers with contempt and potential fare evaders. No-one is allowed to show discretion although I suspect this is more often than not to do with inspectors being disciplined for not following the rules to the letter.

 

[Username]

Now to my mind this is the perfect example of where rail staff should be offering help and advice rather than dishing out penalties.
Based on the fact that it involves a zero fare excess for overdistance on the return it's clear that the passenger was making no financial gain and that the company was making no subsequent monetary loss. In other words, "no harm, no foul"
A common sense approach would have been to give information about how to obtain an excess, should the same situation arise in the future, to "keep yourself straight and avoid any problems".
And I'm sorry but this idea of staff having no ability to exercise discretion in case they get disciplined just doesn't wash with me. Unless they have a manager or superior standing over them at the time then it can quietly fall into the "you don't tell, I don't tell, just don't do it again" category.

 

[transportphoto]

Now to my mind this is the perfect example of where rail staff should be offering help and advice rather than dishing out penalties.
Based on the fact that it involves a zero fare excess for overdistance on the return it's clear that the passenger was making no financial gain and that the company was making no subsequent monetary loss. In other words, "no harm, no foul"
A common sense approach would have been to give information about how to obtain an excess, should the same situation arise in the future, to "keep yourself straight and avoid any problems".
And I'm sorry but this idea of staff having no ability to exercise discretion in case they get disciplined just doesn't wash with me. Unless they have a manager or superior standing over them at the time then it can quietly fall into the "you don't tell, I don't tell, just don't do it again" category.

I echo that Username, it really is not fair on the customer if they don't know the railways inside out - because they shouldn't need too!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I find this thread particularly interesting.

Yes, the OP did travel without a correct ticket, but I'm immediately sympathetic to the counter-argument that there was no difference in price (and therefore no loss and therefore no claim for financial damages).

However, we mustn't get too excited about the "no difference in price" argument. Two products or services which have the same price does NOT entitle the buyer to switch the product or service to a different product or service after making the payment. Examples make this obvious. So that argument isn't going to get us anywhere.

But these two services were not completely different - the ticket WAS valid for a substantial part of the journey. So the interesting question (in law) appears to be how two different services are to be differentiated, to the extent that a consumer may be penalised for a breach in distinguishing them, and where the two services are so substantially identical (in terms of what is supplied), and where the consideration (the price, pre-paid and accepted) does not differentiate the two services.

I'd be quite interested to hear a legal analysis of this matter.

 

[yorkie]

There is a flaw with a lot of the replies to this thread...

...I feel like I shouldn't have been fined!...

I totally agree with you, however technically you weren't fined. Of course, you were effectively 'fined' through the backdoor. Morally (IMO), you were fined.. In all sane definitions you were 'fined' in all but name! But legally? No you weren't fined.

Yes, it's crazy, yes it sucks but that's the ridiculous reality

Based on the fact that it involves a zero fare excess for overdistance on the return it's clear that the passenger was making no financial gain and that the company was making no subsequent monetary loss. In other words, "no harm, no foul"

Although it is a lot of aggro for £20, in this case it is worth fighting because, although technically you were over distance, there was no loss to the company and no intention on your part to defraud. The fare you paid was correct for the journey made so therefore there was absolutely no need for the penalty fare.

Once again, we see a situation where a passenger with no intent to defraud the railway or avoid the fare is penalised.

The above posts are worded in a way that assumes that a Penalty Fare is issued to someone who is attempting to dodge the fare or defraud. But is this the case?

Not according to this...

15. Do Penalty Fares apply to ‘fare dodgers’?
A penalty fare is simply a charge that National Express East Anglia is allowed to make under the Penalty Fare Regulations and Rules. It is not a fine and anyone who is charged one is not being accused of avoiding, or attempting to avoid, paying his or her fare.....

(my emphasis in red)

In other words, the above reasons for why a PF should not be given are in fact, not valid reasons. While I totally agree with all of you that the OP does not deserve a PF, the fact is that under the PF rules, they 'should' (I hate to use that word, but it's true!) get a PF, unless they can answer 'no' to all the questions I posted above (or perhaps some other circumstances that could come to light).

Penalty Fares are not for fare dodgers. They are for genuine customers who have made a mistake! They are not a fine, they are a charge that the railway thinks is fair to charge to any customer who loses their ticket, gets confused by the system or any other reason as defined in the PF regulations!

The whole system stinks, and I am sickened by it.

I totally, completely and utterly agree.

Penalty fares should be abolished. This topic is a perfect example of why they should not exist.

The fact that so many people believe they are a fine for dodgers is very strong evidence, in my view, that PFs are commonly misunderstood and are a complete and utter dismal failure.

If anyone is any doubt at how ridiculous penalty fares are, imagine applying it to a restaurant. A few months ago I made this spoof page of the NXEA penalty fare site. (They've changed their page since then and I've not updated the spoof).

No other industry treats genuine customers as if they're criminals.

 

[moonrakerz]

Could I suggest you have a read of this and see how many of these rules LM were NOT following ?

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/penaltyfarespolicya

Then write again saying that the PF was not "advertised" in accordance with DfT requirements.

 

[jenny121]

Penalty fares are for people making a mistake.
People who are defrauding are (in theory) prosecuted.

jenny121 - If you can answer 'no' to all of the following, you should be able to successfully appeal IMO:-

* Was the ticket office at Birmingham Intl open when you commenced your return journey?
* Did a guard come through the train offering to sell/check tickets?
* Did you have about 15 or more minutes to change trains at Birmingham New St?

Unfortunately I can't remember all of these answers . It was just one journey I made of hundreds and was over a month ago now. Plus I never really kept my eyes open/noted anything down because I didn't expect to be fined or 'charged' as the correct term for it is! Guess I'll just have to let it be...

 

[General Zod]

Just to highlight the difference in attitude wrt other TOCs. Chiltern are very flexible regarding situations like this. The High Wycombe - West Ruislip fare is the same as HWY - South Ruislip even though the latter is one stop ahead on the line. I've often spoken to the resident rippers and they happily allow you to use the HWY - West Ruislip ( WRU) return portion from South Ruislip ( SRU) station. Not all trains stop at both stations so you are sometimes left in a position where you have missed the train at WRU but there is one due at shortly at SRU. Common sense prevails and everyone is happy.

 

[Tom C]

It is not the OP's fault that the ticket office was not open at University

As far as the Penalty Fare is concerned this is largely irrelevant as theOP was P/F'd on the return journey.

Obviously had the ticket office at University been open at the time the OP bought her ticket then this wouldn't happen but there we are.............

The major factors with this are......

1) Was the ticket office open at Birmingham International when you made your return journey?

Of course you could argue that AT THAT TIME you didn't know you had to travel to Selly Oak so it leads on to question 2

2) Why did you not excess the ticket at Birmingham New Street?

The rules on not having to purchase tickets at the next opportunity with tight connection times apply where you did not have the opportunity to purchase a ticket in the first instance which is why question 1 is quite important in this case. If the answer is NO then you should not have been charged a P/F as the rules allow you to catch your connecting train on a tight connection when you were not afforded the opportunity in the first place (i.e @ Birmingham International).

If the answer is YES then.............the rules state you should purchase your ticket at the 1st opportunity so you are travelling beyond the validity of your ticket which means you are liable for a Penalty Fare.

One question regarding the issue of the Penalty Fare.........

Were you afforded the right to pay the SDS fare for the part of the journey affected? This is a fundamental rule with Penalty Fares as you are given time to pay (21 days). If you were not given the option of paying the penalty fare in PART then I would follow the other advise and contact the outside body!.

As for whether it was morally right for the OP to be issued a PF at all is an entirely different arguement, one which the inspector at the time has to make a judgement. Whether that was the right one or not..........I will leave you all to make a decision!