Penalty Fare advice - please help!

[b0b]

I'm going to risk being slapped down for common sense again here. Perhaps when a ticket is sold that could be legitimately used to travel further at no extra charge then the full extent of the journey should be shown. So in this case the TVM should print Birmingham International to Selly Oak on the ticket even though it was purchased at University. The outward portion could even show Selly Oak to Birmingham International to stress the point. The ticket would still have the station code printed as part of the ticket number so an RPI would know where it was purchased.

I thought about this, but then you have to deal with differing rules on "break of journey" for different fare types.

The correct solution is not to PF anyone who has paid the at least the same fare for the journey they are attempting to make but did not understand the technicalities of how to obtain the 100% correct ticket!

It is completely illogical to make someone queue up at a busy station and/or seek out a guard on a short trip to buy a zero excess! Excesses are generally complicated to issue and its shocking to me that the railway industry imposes such a dumb burden on its staff and its customers for no actual revenue! I never knew excesses existed until one day I had a Glasgow>Bedford not London ticket and I hated the Not London part so I went into the booking office prior to the return trip and asked if there was a way to make the ticket valid via London ...

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Ok, read the following.


What if the ticket office is closed and the self service ticket machine/permit to travel machine is out of order?

You can board the train and pay the correct fare for your trip.

seems like she did board the train and did pay the correct fare for her trip.

 

[RJ]

The DfT rules say this:

"a Passengers must be fully informed before they get on a penalty fares train or enter a compulsory ticket area that they need to buy a ticket or permit to travel before starting their journey, and that they may have to pay a penalty if they do not."

Just visually think about your station:

Does every passenger entering the station have a clear view of a PF notice ?
Does the departure board (or similar) identify the train as a PF train ?
Is the train identified as a PF train ?


The ONLY station that I am aware of that does this "properly" is Waterloo.
1. There are plenty of posters around.
2. There are dot matrix signs by the barriers which state the PF policy is in force.
3. On the trains, before departure (to Salisbury/Bristol, anyway) announcements are made.

There are huge black/yellow posters complete with warning symbols at the majority of stations in London which draw your attention.

 

[Ivo]

Here's a thought. If she *had* found the conductor on the train, and asked for the excess, the chances are that (s)he would not have bothered because it's a zero excess. Would the "RPI" at the barrier believe that story? My money says that (s)he would not.

 

[RJ]

seems like she did board the train and did pay the correct fare for her trip.

No, she paid a fare for a different journey, the cost of which happened to be the same as the journey she was actually making. Not a defence for having an invalid ticket when there was the opportunity to get the correct one on the train.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Here's a thought. If she *had* found the conductor on the train, and asked for the excess, the chances are that (s)he would not have bothered because it's a zero excess. Would the "RPI" at the barrier believe that story? My money says that (s)he would not.

Common sense would say that the conductor is incompetent and you insist that a ticket to your destination is issued. At the end of the day, it's down to the customer to ensure they have the right ticket as it'll be them who may come into contact with Revenue.

 

[Ivo]

Well that's fair enough, but I've asked for a zero excess quite a few times. Number printed to date? Zero. Mind you, the only time it could have been contentious was sorted because the conductor who "issued" it advised the following conductor accordingly.

 

[transportphoto]

Hay ho - so much for the fact that all Ticket Issuing personnel must issue any ticket/excess when requested by the customer, if their system would allow them to do so!

 

[RJ]

Personally I'd push to get an excess issued, even if it was free. Saves any trouble if you bump into Revenue later.

 

[222007]

I have been asked by numerous people heading towards birmingham who have asked me is this ticket valid to five ways? (as an example) when i inform them it is not i always offer to extend there ticket to get them to where they need be in case they 'see an RPI' other than myself. I always try to help the passenger out but im sorry if im not asked i dont know do i?

 

[b0b]

. I always try to help the passenger out but im sorry if im not asked i dont know do i?

It's a pity that you live with a system that penalizes the customer for not thinking to ask you for a ticket when they know the ticket they have is the same price as the one they are holding.

This whole example shows exactly what is wrong with penalty fares:- the honest person attempts to pay for a journey and ended up paying more for a journey by being caught out on a technicality than the dishonest person that was caught without any ticket.

 

[thewolf]

Just had a thought about how useless having these revenue inspectors at Selly Oak probably was...

There is another exit from the station on the Redditch platform, I'm sure anyone who was actually trying to fare dodge would've just turned around and used that gate.

Here's a thought. If she *had* found the conductor on the train, and asked for the excess, the chances are that (s)he would not have bothered because it's a zero excess. Would the "RPI" at the barrier believe that story? My money says that (s)he would not.

Another good point, as I said earlier, when I had my Stoke - Birmingham stations ticket checked on the train to Hamstead, the guard said that I should've got it excessed, but it wasn't really any matter.

Hay ho - so much for the fact that all Ticket Issuing personnel must issue any ticket/excess when requested by the customer, if their system would allow them to do so!

If you're referring to the 'revenue protection officers' - They aren't 'ticket issuing personnel', they just roam around with a notepad/fines booklet.

 

[jon0844]

Personally I'd push to get an excess issued, even if it was free. Saves any trouble if you bump into Revenue later.

Yes, except that if someone said 'hey, don't worry about it mate' then you'd hardly feel like forcing them to do it!

Tonight, I went to Welwyn Garden City and was greeted by the RPI that gave me the PF a few months ago (http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=31444). I asked for my ticket extension and he just said 'go through and pay upstairs'. Clearly he's been spoken to since our last encounter (seeing as he said he'd still give me a PF if he saw me again).

Anyway, how come he decided to let me go?? Why would he not sell me a ticket if he wasn't going to give me the penalty? I bet he expected me to walk out the station without paying, which means he's now doing the TOC out of money!

As it happened, I went upstairs and bought a ticket back a station so I'd paid the right amount (you can't moan about the way you've been treated and then fail to do the right thing yourself). But, I've paid the correct fare but bought the wrong ticket (WGC to Hatfield as against Hatfield to WGC) - does that mean I should be done too?

 

[mumrar]

Just had a thought about how useless having these revenue inspectors at Selly Oak probably was...

There is another exit from the station on the Redditch platform, I'm sure anyone who was actually trying to fare dodge would've just turned around and used that gate.

I can assure you that 8 PFI's are quite capable of dealing with the two exits at Selly Oak and cover them all, or else what is the point. I can't believe you actually think they'd only cover one exit, that's rather silly. As a conductor I have been asked or have offered excess tickets at zero fare for many occassions, not sure what problem Ivo's coming up against to be honest. But of course, the OP didn't bother to ask any of the FOUR conductors who's trains she travelled on, so it's obviously all the railways fault!

 

[323235]

Some questions I have relating to some aspects of this thread.

The OP said that University ticket office is nearly always shut, yet it says on National Rail the opening times are 0556-2350 Monday to Friday,0600-2350 Saturday and 0920-2335 Sunday plus there are ticket barriers, which were in use last time I visited.

surely therefore it would be unusual for there not to be someone to provide assistance on a Thursday morning, as i've always considered it to be one of the busiest stations in the West Midlands.

Also how often is Birmingham International ticket office closed in the middle of a weekday afternoon?

 

[yorkie]

The ticket office at University isn't really relevant to the PF issue. The ticket office status at Birmingham Intl is, however the OP does not recall if the office was open, and it appears she didn't check. Therefore, appealing is likely to be futile, apart from if some technicality can be found.

There really isn't any question that a PF can be issued in the circumstances described, given the lack of a "the ticket office at BHI was closed" valid reason.

So if anyone thinks it is "harsh" to issue a PF or that a PF is not appropriate, what they are really saying is that PFs should be abolished. There is no point in anyone trying to dress it up to suggest otherwise.

A PF is appropriate and correct in this scenario, given what PFs are intended for (extracting money out of passengers who are not defrauding in any way and may be confused by the system or in a rush etc).

The claims that a PF is not appropriate all seem to assume that a PF is a fine for dodgers - which simply is not the purpose of them at all. A common misconception!

In terms of the facts, I have to agree with mumrar, RJ etc.

There is no other logical conclusion that can be reached.

 

[Greenback]

I have been saying exactly that - PF's should be abolished.

To be honest, i think such things may be of some limited use on self contained metro type operations, where ticket offices are staffed until the last train, and where they are not, PF's cannot be given out for any ticket bought from a machine at that station.

I have often asked myself what is the point of a penalty fare. by the name itself it's clearly intended as a fare, and obviously a penalty for not having a ticket, or for trying to travel on a child ticket etc. When first introduced by BR on the c2c route, it was controversial, but now that PF's have been extended to rural areas popular with holiday makers, it seems that many more cases are arising where honest passengers are penalised, rightly or wrongly under the rules.

I have come to the conclusion that TOC's see PF's as an easy way to collect revenue. It is better for them to have a random team of PFI's than to staff ticket offices properly, and conduct proper on train ticket checks.

On the facts, yes, the OP was travelling on a ticket that was technically invalid. However, and this is where I see the relevance of the ticket office at University, for she would have bought the Selly Oak to Birmingham International ticket at the office if it had been open. As it was not, she tried to do ensure she was not cheating the system and has now paid £24 for the privilege. If she had not bought a ticket at all, she would have paid £20. What a great incentive that is to try and be honest and pay the fare before you board.

As we have seen, this is not the only example where PF's have caused much debate and discussion. Surely any system that penalises genuine law abiding customers (such as jonmorris!) whilst doing nothing to stop the serial evaders that we all abhor, is unfair, immoral, wrong and should be either abolished, or the legislation tightened up to protect the consumer.

 

[bakerstreet]

If I paid £20 for some pick your own strawberries and left with £20 of grapes it matters not about the value. When I paid my £20, I entered in to a contract for strawberries, so I'd be breaching that contract surely.

I'm not sure a better fairer, example, based on this wouldn't be:

Grapes up to 1 kilo charged at £1
Grapes up to 2 Kilo charged at £2.
Grapes up to 3 kilo charged at £3

I ask for 1.5 kilo (pay £2) then instead take 1.6 kilo (also costs £2).

I doubt the fruit shop, were they to have the above pricing policy, would give me any kind of penalty.

Imagine if the fruit shop took me to court:

Judge asks what the case was.

Prosecutor replies the defendant paid £2 for 1.5 kilo of grapes, but left with 1.6 kilo of grapes.

Judge asks how much 1.6 kilo of grapes costs.

Prosecutor replies, well m'lord it would have cost the defendent exactly the same.

Defendent is asked: why didn't you say you had more grapes?

Defendent: I knew it was the same price.

Judge asks the fruit shop - what are you asking for.

Prosecutor says my client is seeking £20 and prosecution.

I'm not entirely sure what the case is but if I were the judge I'd laugh it out of court.

 

[jon0844]

I think these analogies are rather misleading, as you are effectively forming a contract and while it may be the same cost (and hence the supposed justification), you aren't doing what you agreed to. You may well find that in court, a judge would actually accept that - and then you'd read about it in the paper and think s/he was mad. However, the law is quite specific (but then, I'm not a lawyer!).

If you have bought a ticket from X to Y and go on to Z, it's a breach of that contract. If it was the same price, either knowingly or by luck when you are 'caught' then it is still a breach.

Now, the issue here was if you could get the right ticket. If not, you should be given the opportunity to do so at the end of the journey (or on the way, without having to traipse all over the place to find someone) and in this case the excess would be £0. The RPI should, in my opinion, have given that £0 excess to do the right thing - not given the £20 penalty fare.

 

[Greenback]

I agree with almost everything you say - except that I worry that if it was down to the discretion of the RPI's or PFI's then we would have widely differing interpretations and actiosn across and within the different TOC's.

I would prefer it if, in the absence of a withdrawl of PF schemes, the relevant rules should be rewritten so that where a ticket office that should be open is closed, no PF's can be issued for any journeys begun at that station during the time of closure.

It's a vastly different world since the rules were drawn up. Many ticket offices have been closed or had their hours cut since the early 1990's, permit machines have largely gone, and although TVM's have become more sophisticated there is still a huge range of things that they cannot do. They should be a supplement to a well staffed ticket office, not a replacement.

 

[jon0844]

If a station is unmanned, you cannot rely on a TVM to work properly - either to issue the right tickets (we know many can't, right up to a situation where FCC launched super off-peak tickets and you couldn't get them from a TVM for many months afterwards) or be guaranteed to accept payment in the form required by the customer (from taking notes to accepting cards). I'd even go as far to say that saying 'exact money only' is not sufficient either. You can't even overpay (not that you'd usually want to) so in effect a machine is unusable - even if it won't report itself as faulty to anyone.

What the TOCs could do at the very least is reintroduce permit to travel machines that are activated whenever the ticket office is closed (or unattended) - and be FORCED to do so by the DfT. If it allows people to get away with buying a 5p ticket then so be it - they should keep stations manned. I might, just, accept that if a TVM is reporting that it can take cards AND accept all forms of cash then the permit machine could be disabled.

On a Sunday, I can't buy a ticket extension if the ticket office is closed. Until recently, I couldn't buy the wife a super-off peak ticket as the TVM didn't issue them (so I'd have to buy a normal price one). And TVMs are still pathetic at explaining restrictions, and I recently showed how they're set up to offer 'London Terminals' which you'd take to mean ANY London Terminal (including tube transfer) when it doesn't - it's the terminals on that line, but in the case of FCC it includes the tube to Moorgate when the branch line is closed... Bloody hell, I know about these things and it's a minefield. Imagine the family of four who want to go into town on a Sunday, and that's before you have the rail replacement buses to contend with!!

Anyway - I digress and apologise for going off topic there!

 

[dan_atki]

As a conductor I have been asked or have offered excess tickets at zero fare for many occassions, not sure what problem Ivo's coming up against to be honest.

In most situations, when they cash up, ticket issuing staff must give a reason for each of the zero fare tickets they have issued during their shift.

If they don't want the extra bother and know it's unlikely there will be any hassle later on in the journey, most zero excesses are not issued for this very reason.

I'm aware that you do not cash up your own shift but still get feedback later on requesting details of discrepancies you know nothing about. I would expect the person who does your cashing up gets asked a lot more questions about your shift than you even know about!

Of course, in a situation such as yours, unless Avantix Mobile is very detailed with its end of shift report, I think most of the answers given about your shift are purely speculative from the point of view of your colleague - something that will get better with more experience of the job.

 

[Greenback]

No Jon, you are right. Even when they are working properly there's so many things that a TVM is unable to do. I couldn't find Plusbus on any of the TVM's i recently looked at in the West Country. (I don't like using the myself, and i sort of know what I am doing!)

The permit to travel machines is a great example of where the legislation needs to be tightened up. I don't think the DfT really understands the impact the PF's can have on honest travellers. After all, they don't seem to understand very much about railways at all!

I really can't think fo any other industry where retail staff are withdrawn, customers inconvenienced and penalised for making mistakes using machines that are no replacement for a human being, and where the company concerned stays in business.

Just seen Dan's post - when i began in the ticket office, I was told that if you issue a lot of zero fares, which were noted by APTIS on the end of shift report, you are likely to be cross examined by senior management due to the possibility you are handing out free tickets to your friends.

I was never interrogated, but then I never did more than one a shift as far as I can remember, but I can understand the reluctance of staff to put themselves in the firing line in this way.

 

[moonrakerz]

There are huge black/yellow posters complete with warning symbols at the majority of stations in London which draw your attention.

There might well be - but are they clearly visible to ALL passengers ?

At two busy mainline stations near me (which claim to be PF stations):
One station has one poster - which you only pass if you are going to that particular platform.
The other has two - one of which would not be seen by anyone arriving in a vehicle, pedestrians might see it: the other would be seen if a passenger happened to look backwards over his shoulder at the right point - and even then this poster is only on the route to 2 of the 4 platforms.

Hardly following the DfT rules !

 

[tony_mac]

They are very well hidden at Lime Street!
There is a board very near to the end of Platform 8 (where most London Midland services depart from) saying 'This station is managed by network rail' (or something similar).
However, the penalty fares poster is on the opposite side of the concourse, on the wall behind the cafe, and hidden from view by the information boards unless you standing are in the right place.

 

[jon0844]

Do they have the yellow lines that you cross to make it clear you've entered a penalty fare area? I am not even sure these still exist?

Imagine if the DfT stepped in and said that if there was insufficient warnings, signs, markings etc that PFs couldn't be issued AT ALL? I guess they set out some rules then turn a blind eye, while a totally independent (joke) appeals board can make judgements after the event, and take advantage of people who got a PF and didn't know that it wasn't right.

 

[Greenback]

There were no yellow lines at Bodmin Parkway station entrance, nor at Par last week. They have been penalty fare stations since this April, apparently.

 

[Ivo]

I know it's a bit off-topic, but I fail to see how you can fairly run a PF scheme at an unstaffed station. I know there are TVMs and Permit Machines, but it isn't the same as being able to request a ticket in person. Why should someone be hit by a PF because the machine would not vend the machine (s)he wanted? And come to think of it, that last sentence means it isn't off-topic.

 

[Greenback]

I accept that it's difficult for a TM ona FGW HST to get through the entire train on leaving Par heading West to St Austell. the jounrey time is under 10 minutes, so there might well be a few people who end up not paying for a single or day return between these two points (£2.80 and £2.90 respectively according to the TVM).

FGW could choose to either extend the opening hours at Par, employ more on train ticket examiners, or install a TVM and introduce penalty fares. Guess which one is the cheapest for them, guess which one has the potential to bring in more revenue for them and guess which one they opted for!

Never mind the customers who get penalty fared for having bought the wrong ticket from the machine, or those who don;t know what the cheapest fare option on the TVM is, or those who can;t get the ticket they want because the TVM doesn;t issue it, or those who find the TVm not working properly and are faced with an embarrassing public argument with a member of staff.

I could go on, but we all know what the drawbacks are with PF's and TVM's!

 

[Ivo]

I understand that Northern have no PF policy?

I ask this because when in Blackpool I went for a run from South to Kirkham & Wesham, just for the route coverage. I kinda didn't pay for it. Without the word "kinda". Why? The conductor didn't even appear until we passed St Anne's, and by the time he was within five metres of me we weer approaching Kirkham. By this time, I had moved to the door he would reach last, more of a test to see what he would do than to save myelf some money. He reached a group one metre from the door just as we pulled into Kirkham, so there was no opportunity for me to purchse a ticket without some kind of problem (either delaying the train or travelling beyond my destination).

But this is a common story; here, it was only because it was an "advantageous" situation - what about the other people who undertook local travel between Blackpool and the Lytham area?

Put simply, the onus should not be on the customer to find the conductor. If the TOC wants him to pay, they should track down the customer before his journey is complete, not the other way round.

 

[RJ]

Why should someone be hit by a PF because the machine would not vend the machine (s)he wanted? And come to think of it, that last sentence means it isn't off-topic.

Conductors on the trains issue tickets :roll:.

 

[Bedpan]

If there had been a permit to travel machine at University, then she could have put £4 in it and presumably she wouldn't have received a penalty fare. That's another reason for an injustice in this case.

Surely the whole point of introducing penalty fares is to prevent fraud: tno fraud has been comitted in this case so no penalty fare so I would have thought that (if Idid not know better from other experiences) the appeal against the penalty fare should have been allowed on common sense grounds.

IMHO the behaviour of a lot of TOCs leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to overcharging customers, and its a pity that there isn't some mechanism for recompense to customers who are overcharged, similar to the delay repay scheme. The fact that it was impossible to buy a super off peak on FCC from a TVM for several months is a case in point. I am sure most members of the travelling public bought an ordinary off peak ticket without realisuing that they were being overcharged, but when I ended up buying one I felt that I was being swindled. Similarly the TVM at Hasrpenden won't (or wouldn't) sell an off peak ticket after midnight despite the fact that off peak tickets are valid up to and including the 04.13 in the up dirction. If they had to refund twice the cost of the ticket or £20, whichever is the greater, in circumstances where the correct ticket price was overcharged, I'm sure that they would soon sort things out.

Reading through this thread, it seems that one can read through the NCoC from cover to cover and still fall foul of the penalty fares scheme because the penalty fares rules take precedence over the NCoC. How fair is that?????
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm not sure a better fairer, example, based on this wouldn't be:

Grapes up to 1 kilo charged at £1
Grapes up to 2 Kilo charged at £2.
Grapes up to 3 kilo charged at £3

If the pick your own shop was run by the railway, you would have to buy a ticket in advance; you should noyt go out into the field unless you have a ticket.

You buy an "up to 2 kilos" ticket and go to pick your grapes.

You come back to the desk with your grapes and they are weighed, you find that you have collected 1.1 kilos.

You go back out into the field and pick another half a kilo, so you now have 1.6kilos.

You go back to the cash desk and find that you are charged an additional £20 because you have used your original ticket and had not bought another one.