Penalty Fare advice - please help!

[BruceBruce]

Agree with those who say the whole PF system should be abolished. It's an affront to fairness and common sense. The "should have known better" argument basically sums up all that's wrong with the customer service ethic at many TOCs.

I'd also like to point out that the opportunity to buy a ticket on the train is often completely unrealistic at peak times on overcrowded commuter trains. It's hard enough to board some of these, without trapsing through carriages trying to find a guard.

 

[Ivo]

Conductors on the trains issue tickets :roll:.

But what if the conductor just sits in the rear cab the whole time? For all the average traveller knows, he may not even be there. The onus should have been on LM to sell Jenny the correct ticket, not for Jenny to hunt down LM staff.

The LM PF scheme is ridiculous to be honest. Something like 90% of their stations are covered, when no more than about 30 are staffed full-time! And they also insist on Moor Street and Snow Hill being compulsory ticket areas; yet Network Rail are happy for New Street to not be. LM need to be taught a lesson in fairness.

Now, as for any complaint, I wonder what happened to the guy from LM who came along a few times earlier in the year.

 

[b0b]

Surely the whole point of introducing penalty fares is to prevent fraud: tno fraud has been comitted in this case so no penalty fare so I would have thought that (if Idid not know better from other experiences) the appeal against the penalty fare should have been allowed on common sense grounds.

The PF scheme is introduced as a scheme to "prevent fraud" and "ticketless travel that costs the honest person money", but the reality of the situation, and this case is a prime example, is that its a cheap way to get additional revenue from honest people that make a mistake, rather than deter professional fare evasion

Effectively the honest person is now playing twice for professional fare evasion, once through the actual ticket price and second by being occasionally caught out by the PF system on technicalities.

 

[Bedpan]

Spot on b0b.

I was gobsmacked to learn that the TOCs don't keep a record of people that they have issued penalty fares to, and so can't target serial fare evaders. Even if they did, would they insist on seeingf proof of ID when taking details?

It seems to me that "turn up and go" passengers travelling overnight on the Bedford - St Pancras line have two choices:-

1) Buy a ticket in which case they are unwittingly paying peak prices when they should be entitled to travel at off peak fares ie they are being swindled - for want of a better word - by the TOC.

2) Not buy a ticket, walk through an open barrier at both ends of the journey and pay nothing. It seems to me that this is the most economical, albeit illegal, option (depending on how far you are travelling) even if it involves getting caught and having to pay a penalty fare every once in a while. Dishonest? ...yes, but then so is deliberately overcharging customers who buy a ticket from a TVM after midnight.


My question is, though what would happen if I got on a train without a ticket and told an RPI that the reason I hadn't got one was that the TVM wouldn't sell me an off peak after midnight?

Alternatively, what would happen if I bought a ticket to the value of the off peak fare and then travelled beyond the destination shown on the ticket?

In fact I used to do something vaguely similar to the latter in days gone by when TVMs only issued tickets to a limited number of stations. I used to travel from Harpenden to Esher periodically but bought a ticket from the TVM for Harpenden - Leatherhead which was the same fare and the nearest destination to Esher available from the TVM - I never had any problem with this when I explained what I had done and why.

 

[RJ]

I was gobsmacked to learn that the TOCs don't keep a record of people that they have issued penalty fares to, and so can't target serial fare evaders. Even if they did, would they insist on seeingf proof of ID when taking details?

You'll find that records are kept elsewhere.

 

[moonrakerz]

Do they have the yellow lines that you cross to make it clear you've entered a penalty fare area? I am not even sure these still exist?

Now - we are getting into really contentious territory !

I don't think there is such a thing as a Penalty Fares Area. Penalty fares are only invoked if you are actually on a train or have travelled on a train without the correct ticket.

What you may be thinking of is a Compulsory Ticket Area (CTA), which again is covered by strict DfT rules - which again are flouted by the TOCs (especially SWT, who seem to be a law unto themselves).

 

[yorkie]

I was gobsmacked to learn that the TOCs don't keep a record of people that they have issued penalty fares to, and so can't target serial fare evaders.

Fare evaders should not be issued Penalty Fares. Where do you get that idea?

2) Not buy a ticket, walk through an open barrier at both ends of the journey and pay nothing. It seems to me that this is the most economical, albeit illegal, option (depending on how far you are travelling) even if it involves getting caught and having to pay a penalty fare every once in a while. Dishonest? ...yes, but then so is deliberately overcharging customers who buy a ticket from a TVM after midnight.
.

Unless there is an easement, tickets bought after midnight are actually charged at peak rate, so the TVMs are correct. Immoral? yes. But 'correct'.

For example I incorrectly advised someone travelling on a 0138 TPE from York to Manchester that they were entitled to an Off Peak ticket. The guard sold them an Anytime. I then realised that all they had to do was buy a ticket a few hours earlier, and then they would have got an Off Peak dated for the day before, but valid for their journey commencing in the early hours of the next morning.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What you may be thinking of is a Compulsory Ticket Area (CTA), which again is covered by strict DfT rules - which again are flouted by the TOCs (especially SWT, who seem to be a law unto themselves).

Yes, that'll be what he means.

Out of interest, when York Races are on, do certain areas of York station become a CTA? If not, then in theory the barrier staff have no powers to stop you. And if they are, they are bound by the CTA rules.

The rules of CTA areas say that TOCs must allow people to pass through barriers if they are meeting/seeing off relatives, getting on trains where you can buy on board, etc. either by simply waving people through or by the issuing of platform tickets.

Someone claimed that York were not allowing people through under such circumstances so the next time there is a race, I may feel the urge to do a Grand Central bash, and check that the security drones are adhering to the rules!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Now, as for any complaint, I wonder what happened to the guy from LM who came along a few times earlier in the year.

Feel free to send him a PM, but I think such decisions, as ludicrous as they are, are more likely determined by DfT. Of course, done in such a way that the TOC 'suggests' doing these anti-customer measures but if they don't suggest it they won't win the franchise. That way the DfT can try to evade the blame. Barriers at York & Sheffield are good examples of that, the DfT tried to ensure that NXEC & EMT were blamed by the masses, but the masses realised it was the awful Government that were to blame, along with loads of other ridiculous policies, and the masses voted accordingly, and it's now good riddance to them. I hope that the new Government are not so anti-customer, pro-barrier, and pro-penalty fare as the previous disastrous lot.

 

[90019]

Now, as for any complaint, I wonder what happened to the guy from LM who came along a few times earlier in the year.

Regardless of his own personal views on the PF system in use by LM, it'd be very unwise of him to post negative things about the company he works for, especially if they're aware who he is.

 

[RJ]

But what if the conductor just sits in the rear cab the whole time? For all the average traveller knows, he may not even be there. The onus should have been on LM to sell Jenny the correct ticket, not for Jenny to hunt down LM staff.

The onus is on the customer to ensure they have the correct ticket before boarding the train, or from the conductor on the train if there is one.

 

[scotsman]

ScotRail (Customer Relations) once told me that I wasn't entitled to buy discounted tickets on the train if I paid by cash on the train, even when my local station is closed and the ticket machine takes cards only.

Suffice to say that TOCs are not always right (I put them right sooo quickly!)

 

[jon0844]

Now - we are getting into really contentious territory!

Not sure what it's called, but I know that I used to see the posters and a yellow line that signified you were now in an area where you needed a ticket (so I guess it is CTA as you say).

Maybe now there are gatelines, the yellow lines aren't needed - but what about when the gates are unmanned and open? And what about at night where there might be a side gate into the station? I'll have to check but I am not sure Hatfield has one for the side gate now, as they have advertising posters. Might be wrong though.

As for keeping records, I thought that FCC would seek criminal/court action after 3 PFs and that they must take name and address details (and phone for confirmation), but then I heard that if you paid the £20 in full there and then, they didn't. So, if you pay up without argument you'll be fine.

If you part-pay with FCC having to keep a record to chase the payment if you don't pay within XX days, then they'll notice if you're getting loads.

Disclaimer: I don't know this as fact. Please don't assume the above to be correct!! It's simply hearsay.

I would say that I am not for being soft on fare evaders. PFs allow a quick and easy way for the TOCs to 'punish' those people, without going to court. However, they should be taking these people to court - perhaps a criminal record is worth 'more' as a deterrent than the pathetic fines usually issued. As long as PFs are seen as an easy way to raise revenue, it penalises the innocent (there are many examples of how someone really is completely innocent and has made no attempt to defraud) and rewards the guilty who just pay £20 every now and then, instead of being fined or even - potentially - put in jail for serious or repeat offences.

The last Government was big on the 'on the spot fines' idea which must be a complete result for the offenders. In many cases, the fines aren't even paid (quite a lot actually) so it's even more of a joke for all concerned (except I'm not laughing).

 

[Ivo]

The onus is on the customer to ensure they have the correct ticket before boarding the train, or from the conductor on the train if there is one.

So what do you suppose should happen if a great gaggle of people is travelling from one station to the next, which unlike the former is staffed and barricaded, and the conductor is unable to see them all in time? If the argument is going to be "use the TVM", read the misleading TVMs thread and then tell m that every one of those passengers would have been able to - and that's assuming they work (and at present in the first place). Would the outstanding customers then be hit by PFs?

 

[dan_atki]

Maybe now there are gatelines, the yellow lines aren't needed - but what about when the gates are unmanned and open? And what about at night where there might be a side gate into the station? I'll have to check but I am not sure Hatfield has one for the side gate now, as they have advertising posters. Might be wrong though.

A gateline does not necessarily indicate the entrance to a CTA. Many stations with gatelines do not have a CTA, and vice versa.

 

[Greenback]

What RJ has said is often trotted out by TOC's as it means that they can abdicate their own responsibilities in the areas of retailing and customer services.

As we know, in the real world, things are not quite so clear cut!

 

[moonrakerz]

Maybe now there are gatelines, the yellow lines aren't needed - but what about when the gates are unmanned and open?

I am in the middle of a long "discussion" with SWT over this. They refused my wife and I access to the platforms at Salisbury, stating that we must have a "valid" ticket. (They admitted they stopped selling Platform Tickets when the barriers were installed) On my two subsequent visits to Salisbury all the barriers were locked open and unmanned.
DfT inform me that SWT have official NO CTAs !

 

[Lampshade]

A gateline does not necessarily indicate the entrance to a CTA. Many stations with gatelines do not have a CTA, and vice versa.

This.

IIRC provision must be made in a CTA for non travellers to access the platforms (provided they give a reason obviously), usually with platform tickets. SWT haven't designated any of their stations CTAs yet trying to access the platform without intending to travel at any SWT station is like trying to reason with a gorilla.

I was at Staines a few weeks ago and found the ticket office was closed yet the barriers were manned until at least 10pm - presumably to catch out people confused by TVMs :roll:

 

[IanXC]

Is there a reason why every zero extension couldnt be turned into a station grouping so as to avoid the problems the OP had? If there was a station group "SELLY OAK & BHAM UNI" would this avoid all the trouble there seems to be with zeros?

 

[RJ]

What RJ has said is often trotted out by TOC's as it means that they can abdicate their own responsibilities in the areas of retailing and customer services.

As we know, in the real world, things are not quite so clear cut!

Err, yes they are. Buy a valid ticket at the earliest opportunity. Do this and you should not be Penalty Fared. What you're doing is defending people who make a decision not buy a valid ticket at the earliest reasonable opportunity then seeking to blame somebody else when they get Penalty Fared.

In the case of this thread, the OP chose not to get a valid ticket sorted from the conductors on the trains they travelled on. The opportunity was available to get a valid ticket, it was not taken up for reasons only the OP knows. Penalty Fare legitimately issued, full stop.

I'm speaking from a customer's perspective here, I've managed to travel on my own since the age of 11 without ever being Penalty Fared for having an invalid ticket. The journeys I've made have been of varying complexities and I use my common sense. If I'm taking it upon myself to buy unnecessarily complex combinations of tickets to save money, I do my research first to ensure I'm 100% valid. Otherwise it's a simple ticket on the day at the earliest possible opportunity. Hardly rocket science :roll:.

 

[b0b]

In the case of this thread, the OP chose not to get a valid ticket sorted from the conductors on the trains they travelled on. The opportunity was available to get a valid ticket, it was not taken up for reasons only the OP knows. Penalty Fare legitimately issued, full stop..

Then we'll disagree, the OP was unable to buy the exact ticket due to the failure of the train company to provide issuing facilities, and then didn't rush to beg a conductor to for the correct ticket knowing that the ticket was the same price as the one they held. I don't think this deserves a PF, since there no attempt to evade paying the amount of the fare for the trip they made.

Not everyone has time to spend researching all the rules, or go online and pre-order tickets in case they are unable to obtain the correct ticket at the station. In any case not all of the information we require to determine if a ticket is valid is available anyway unless you're willing to spend hundreds of pounds, and there are constant ambiguities that we argue in the forum.

The PF system needs some flexibility so that genuine customers that are caught out on a technicality do not get treated as a criminal.

 

[RJ]

Then we'll disagree, the OP was unable to buy the exact ticket due to the failure of the train company to provide issuing facilities, and then didn't rush to beg a conductor to for the correct ticket knowing that the ticket was the same price as the one they held. I don't think this deserves a PF, since there no attempt to evade paying the amount of the fare for the trip they made.

Not everyone has time to spend researching all the rules, or go online and pre-order tickets in case they are unable to obtain the correct ticket at the station. In any case not all of the information we require to determine if a ticket is valid is available anyway unless you're willing to spend hundreds of pounds, and there are constant ambiguities that we argue in the forum.

If you get on a train which has a conductor on it and you don't have a ticket (for a valid reason), common sense dictates that the first thing you do is seek out the conductor to buy a ticket. That way, there is no way you can be accused of trying to fare evade and you can choose the ticket you want to buy, with a railcard concession etc.

I'm sure all the fare evaders with no intention of buying a ticket unless forced, jump on such trains, hoping that the conductor doesn't reach them in time then reach their destination without paying. They feel that is justified, because the conductor didn't get to them. I hope you're not trying to justfy this sort of behavior because the TOC did not make enough effort to ensure that the passenger was able to get a ticket. TOCs are more than aware on which services the guard is unable to perform revenue duties.

Whenever I get on a railtour to pay on the day or a service train having not been able to get my ticket, the first thing I do is look for the conductor for the above reasons. Oh, but you have to spend £££s and hundreds of hours in the internet doing research to realise that this is what you're supposed to do :roll:. Sounds like a lame excuse to me, as is trying to bend the rules to suit you, which is what the OP effectively did.

 

[b0b]

Whenever I get on a railtour to pay on the day or a service train having not been able to get my ticket, the first thing I do is look for the conductor for the above reasons. Oh, but you have to spend £££s and hundreds of hours in the internet doing research to realise that this is what you're supposed to do :roll:. Sounds like a lame excuse to me, as is trying to bend the rules to suit you, which is what the OP effectively did.

I'm saying there's no way to determine if a ticket is valid for your proposed trip without spending hundreds of £££s and lots of time, or hope that you get the right answer from NRE...

And personally, I don't think if I could buy a ticket to B that is a station before A, but not to A, but I know the price is the same, that the first thing I would do is seek out a conductor to have him fix that - I guess I didn't do enough research to realize I was ripping off the railway!

 

[90019]

Oh, but you have to spend £££s and hundreds of hours in the internet doing research to realise that this is what you're supposed to do :roll:. Sounds like a lame excuse to me, as is trying to bend the rules to suit you, which is what the OP effectively did.

If the TOC don't provide adequate facilities to buy the correct ticket, why should the customer be forced to go out of their own way to do so?

 

[Ivo]

If the TOC don't provide adequate facilities to buy the correct ticket, why should the customer be forced to go out of their own way to do so?

That's the exact point I've been trying to make. And I'm sure that the vast majority on here - essentially (but probably not exactly) everyone who is *not* an RPI - would agree on this. The customer should not have to go out of their way to rectify a situation which was caused by the TOC. In other industries, the company would rectify this (even with air travel).

It is things like this that make some of us dislike Go-Ahead (Govia) as a TOC owner. Note, however, how their bus operations, especially Brighton & Hove, are at the other end of the scale... the best in the business.

 

[mumrar]

Okay, say I need some baby formula as my child is very hungry, but all of the electronic payment and cashpoints are out of action. Due to this failure to sell me the formula, shall I just chuck them whatever cash I have and an IOU? The OP had the opportunity to ask FOUR conductors, New Street booking office whilst making connections TWICE, and Birmingham International booking office on exit and re-entry to start the return journey. That's EIGHT chances to rectify it before the RPIs had been encountered, ample opportunity.

 

[b0b]

Okay, say I need some baby formula as my child is very hungry, but all of the electronic payment and cashpoints are out of action. Due to this failure to sell me the formula, shall I just chuck them whatever cash I have and an IOU?

Bad example. Better example, you buy the baby formula and then get the receipt and it has the wrong product name on it -- do you go back and get the receipt fixed, or know that you paid the right amount and it was their fault your receipt has the wrong thing on it - and feed your baby and save your sanity?

 

[jon0844]

That's the exact point I've been trying to make. And I'm sure that the vast majority on here - essentially (but probably not exactly) everyone who is *not* an RPI - would agree on this.

Off the record, I think any RPI would agree too.

I am not sure there is any requirement to go hunting for a guard who may or may not exist on a train, while losing your seat - or personal possessions if you've left them behind in the luggage rack or on the floor.

Now, you could argue that if you don't get met by a guard or someone else on a train that can sell a ticket, you should seek someone before leaving at the destination station - but that's another argument completely.

The tricky thing here is that a) could the right ticket be issued and b) if it was the same amount, why couldn't some discretion be used? I've acknowledged that there's the technical breach of contract, which is valid, and I don't disagree that it might be considered all legal and above board, and any appeal may fail, but the question is; if RPIs are allowed discretion (and all the ones I've spoken to say they are, and indeed many show it to others as I've witnessed many times) then why did they issue the PF in the first place?

 

[Ivo]

We're not getting anywhere here...

How many people who are *not* RPIs, or otherwise involved with the selling and checking of tickets, believe that Jenny should receive a PF? And how many people who are RPIs, or otherwise involved with the selling and checking otckets, believe that Jenny should not receive a PF? I am not looking for a majority view here, because it isn't fair, but because it is common sense. The girl paid the correct fare; get over it! LM are just squeezing every penny out of poor suckers that they can - and Selly Oak is an obvious choice for the high student population, most of whom have more important things to think about (like getting drunk :roll: - honestly...) than ensuring that they go out of their way to suit the needs of a large corporation.

(Sorry - Jon beat me there.)

b0b: A good point. My mother and I had this happen at ASDA once, with bread. We bought white bread, but somehow brown appeared on the receipt. So we went to get it checked, resulting in ASDA - a decent (-ish) company with a reputation for at least occasionally putting the customer first - not only paid it off, but gave us a £3 voucher! For a printing/scanning/data error!

 

[moonrakerz]

IIRC provision must be made in a CTA for non travellers to access the platforms

Spot on ! This includes "rail enthusiasts" (DfT words - not mine)

 

[Greenback]

If you get on a train which has a conductor on it and you don't have a ticket (for a valid reason), common sense dictates that the first thing you do is seek out the conductor to buy a ticket. That way, there is no way you can be accused of trying to fare evade and you can choose the ticket you want to buy, with a railcard concession etc.

I'm sure all the fare evaders with no intention of buying a ticket unless forced, jump on such trains, hoping that the conductor doesn't reach them in time then reach their destination without paying. They feel that is justified, because the conductor didn't get to them. I hope you're not trying to justfy this sort of behavior because the TOC did not make enough effort to ensure that the passenger was able to get a ticket. TOCs are more than aware on which services the guard is unable to perform revenue duties.

Whenever I get on a railtour to pay on the day or a service train having not been able to get my ticket, the first thing I do is look for the conductor for the above reasons. Oh, but you have to spend £££s and hundreds of hours in the internet doing research to realise that this is what you're supposed to do :roll:. Sounds like a lame excuse to me, as is trying to bend the rules to suit you, which is what the OP effectively did.

Why are you ignoring the fact that in this case the customer had a ticket that she thought would be valid? It was certainly valid to get her to her destination. She obviously felt she had to get a ticket as most of the posters I have seen in PF areas put the emphasis on the fact that you must have a valid ticket before you board the train.

Not everyone ios a rail enthusiast, or interested enough in trains to do a lot of research on the various pety regulations that have been invented down the years. I hope we don't start the rather tedious procession of arguments about customer seeking the conductor out, I'm sure we've done that to death and the majority view is that it is not necessary.

Equally, the majority view on PF's is that they are maladministered, not policed effectively and that many customers get unfairly treated by them. If everything is as black and white as you claim, there would be no need for a PF appeals procedure and no one would ever successfully appeal. xclearly, mistakes are being made, and penalty fares are being issued in inappropriate circumstances. Whether this particular case is one of them is perhaps doubtful, but it does, as I originally said, highlight what is wrong with the attitude of TOC's, the PF system, the move towards destaffing ticket offices and the over reliance on TVM's.

At the end of the day, if the ticket office had been open, none of this sorry tale would ever have occurred.

 

[RJ]

Why are you ignoring the fact that in this case the customer had a ticket that she thought would be valid? It was certainly valid to get her to her destination.

No, it wasn't. It stopped being valid as soon as she overtravelled. It also failed to be an acceptable permit to travel because there was ample opportunity for the ticket to get excessed beforehand. Does common sense dictate that you travel on a dodgy ticket rather than ask the on board conductor for help?

You're basically saying that it's acceptable to bend the rules to suit yourself which I do not agree with. It's not like there were no retail staff to verify and rectify the situation for the customer for any duration of the journey. It is quite clear on Penalty Fare posters that overtravelling means one may be liable to pay a Penalty Fare.