Penalty Fare advice - please help!

[mumrar]

I also agree that this PF is very harsh. Our ticketing system IS very difficult, and it didn't help that the ticket office was shut. However, if I was in a similar situation I would have sought the advice of a member of staff, knowing as you did that your ticket wasn't correct for the journey you required. The situation you found yourself in at Selly Oak, was a station block, where staff create a manual ticket barrier in order to check everyones ticket who has left the train.

Upon my arrival at Selly Oak station at 16.15pm I was greeted by a team of 7 or 8 (no exaggeration) of train officers who demanded I pay £20 as I had gone beyond the station my ticket was meant for.

I'm not sure why the number of PFIs present should surprise you, Selly Oak is a very busy station and is also rife with fraudulent travel, and the unwillingness to be flexible is probably related to the sheer number of other students travelling to/from Selly Oak. The other thing to bear in mind is that PFs are a legal thing. So, if you don't have a correct ticket at the barrier, the staff must be impartial and PF everyone who doesn't have the correct travel documents. The appeal system is there to deal with people who may have unique circumstances, such as yourself, but to avoid being accused of stereotyping etc. they have to PF anyone who's tickets aren't correct. Your account involving the PFs is particularly over dramatic by how you shortened it. I very much doubt you were greeted by them and they demanded £20. 'Good evening Madam, give us £20 now' - is that similar to how it went?? Anyway, ignorance is surely not an excuse, you said you knew when you purchased the ticket it wasn't what you required, yet you never did anything througout the enitire journey to rectify that. Whilst I think this should have been stopped after your appeal, ignorance is not bliss.

 

[Greenback]

I think you are being a little unfair Mumrar. Of course the story was shortened a bit, should we expect a verbatim transcript of everything thatw as said?

Your defence of the PF system is a good attempt, but it also serves to highlight the faults that have already been mentioned in the thread. The people who regularly travel to and from Selly Oak without a ticket at all will not be hugely inconvenienced by the manual barrier, nor will an occasional blockade persuade them to change their ways.

It does, however, inconvenience the honest traveller, and make people who are unable to obtain the ticket they need, or who have made a mistake feel criminalised. And this is why the whole PF system is not fit for purpose and should be abolished.

 

[b0b]

To everyone defending the PF system ..... explain what the OP should have done to ensure she avoided a PF, other than doing what she did and spending a whole bunch of time to get the zero excess, which she would have probably not known about.

It is ridiculous that someone who made a best effort and actually paid the correct fare is dinged for an additional 20 quid.

 

[SignalEngineer]

Could a possible way around this be for the OP to say to the ticket inspector that they missed their stop and are either getting picked up from this one instead / walking from here... and if the inspectiors cannot show discretion then they could excess the passenger...

Perhaps this would be an 'excuse' that's been tried on before... but I have legitamately slept through a stop before and gotten off at the next stop without having had a change to find the guard to endorse my ticket etc etc (and arranged for my lift to come and get me) ... I would be very frustrated to have been charged a PF for this.

I suppose in this case the OP has already stated her case so I suspect the inspectors have decided to issue a PF on that fact so my question is only hyperthetical.

 

[Greenback]

The facts of that matter that stand out for me is that the ticlet office was closed, the TVM was unable to issue the required ticket, and the OP is not as familiar as most of us with the 'rules' of penalty fares and the ticketing system in general.

I agree with b0b that this situation is quite ridiculous. We know we have the right to board the train without a ticket in those circumstances and to purchase one at the first available opportunity. I would hazrd a guess and suggest that most rail travellers do not know this, and so would do as the OP did and ensure they had a ticket for their journey before getting on the train.

Of course, even those of us who know the way it works may well be inconvenienced by having to join a long queue at some point to try and buy the ticket we wanted in the first place.

Having completed the first half of a journey, how many ordinary, non enthusaist passengers would know about zero fare excesses or even think about trying to get one? How much trouble would the person have in obtaining one? How long might they have to wait?

Until the railway can sort out itself out and provide proper facilites for people to buy the tickets they need on the day, then penalty fares should be abolished.

Signalengineer, your suggestion may well work at times, it often depends on the individuals concerned. But why should honest people have to lie in order to avoid something they should not have to contend with in the first place?

 

[b0b]

I agree with b0b that this situation is quite ridiculous. We know we have the right to board the train without a ticket in those circumstances and to purchase one at the first available opportunity.

chances are, in this case, they still would have attempted to PF you in the situation described by the OP

 

[Greenback]

If you hadn;t tried to buy a ticket before compelting your journey, yes. Penalty Fares can;t be levied if you did not have the opportunity to purchase a ticket by your chosen method of payment before boarding the train.

I accept that you may have difficulty explaining this en route if challenged!

Incidentally Par station is now in apenalty fares zone. The ticket office is only opne from around 0710 to 1400 Mon - Sat, and is operated by one person. There is a new TVM, but you can't buy day tickets from it, so we got on a train last Sunday without a ticket! I was prepared for a battle, as we wanted Ride Cornwall tickets to go to St Ives, use the local buses and return from Penzance before taking another bus to Fowey in the evening. Not an eyebrow was raised when we asked to buy a ticket on board!

 

[222007]

To everyone defending the PF system ..... explain what the OP should have done to ensure she avoided a PF, other than doing what she did and spending a whole bunch of time to get the zero excess, which she would have probably not known about.

It is the passengers responsibility to ensure they have the correct ticket for the journey they are making When travelling in a penalthy fare area its that simple or you risk being penalty fared which is exactly what happened. As staff we cannot molly coddle everyone nor should we be expected to.

That said i personally think on this occasion it was a little harsh however make an exception for one you have to do it for everyone.

 

[b0b]

That said i personally think on this occasion it was a little harsh however make an exception for one you have to do it for everyone.

Why shouldn't they make an exception for everyone in this case, where the OP was unable to purchase the ticket required and has paid at least what the correct ticket would have cost?

 

[Greenback]

It is the passengers responsibility to ensure they have the correct ticket for the journey they are making When travelling in a penalthy fare area its that simple or you risk being penalty fared which is exactly what happened. As staff we cannot molly coddle everyone nor should we be expected to.

That said i personally think on this occasion it was a little harsh however make an exception for one you have to do it for everyone.

The passenger couldn't get the ticket for the journey they wanted to make. This seems to be due entirely to the inability of the operator to open the ticket office. This is quite the reverse of mollycoddling people, it is making it as difficult as possible for the customer to actually the buy the ticket they want.

Of course, it suits TOC's to do it this way. The OP has paid the same fare as if the ticket office was open, but the TOC has saved money on staffing the station, and copped an extra £20 as a nice little bonus. Kerching! Oh, how I wish I could run my business in the same way!

 

[RJ]

The official rule is that if a sales point/ticket office is unable to sell a ticket to the destination a customer requires, the customer should buy a ticket covering part of their journey then ask for an excess at the earliest possible opportunity. However, if your origin station is in a Penalty Fare zone, the TOC's Penalty Fare rules will take precedence over this.

London Midland's Penalty Fare media categorically states that if your ticket does not cover the entire journey you are making (or have made), you will be liable to pay a Penalty Fare of £20 or twice the standard fare to the next stop (whichever is greater). http://www.londonmidland.com/download/9800.7/revised-penalty-fares-booklet/

Unfortunately, the onus is on the customer know what to do in such situations as the information is all out there in the public domain. Knowledge is power and the more you have, the more you can protect yourself against people who are in a position to exploit you. If you don't know, ask somebody at the earliest opportunity (i.e the guard).

Good luck with an appeal, but the Penalty Fare rules in that leaflet are pretty succint and I can't see the appeals board overturning it on sympathy grounds or your good intentions. Technically, the OP not only travelled with an invalid ticket beyond University, but did not seek to get the issue resolved at when there were opportunities available. The PF was issued perfectly legitimately I'm afraid. The argument of having paid the correct amount is not strong enough on its own, the OP is at the mercy of the TOC in this case.

 

[jon0844]

This seems to be similar (but not identical) to my PF for not buying a ticket extension when I couldn't actually get one from the starting station. I won that appeal.

If you need to get a ticket extension and a TVM won't issue them, because the railway seems to assume everyone would simply buy a ticket starting from the station before their destination, then it just shows what a nonsense ticketing is - especially when TVMs are often the ONLY way of buying a ticket now.

Surely, anyone that did abuse the TVM could lie at the ticket office just the same? The solution is, if caught either way, you prosecute IN COURT for fraud.

It's even more ridiculous when permit to travel machines have been removed from many stations, as it allowed people to get away with buying a 5p ticket and then not being able to be given a PF (if 'caught' within a certain time).

 

[RJ]

Could I suggest you have a read of this and see how many of these rules LM were NOT following ?

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/penaltyfarespolicya

Then write again saying that the PF was not "advertised" in accordance with DfT requirements.

???

Their Penalty Fare rules are available online, on posters at stations and in leaflet form. You can hardly acccuse them of obfuscation.

 

[222007]

Why shouldn't they make an exception for everyone in this case, where the OP was unable to purchase the ticket required and has paid at least what the correct ticket would have cost?

Because if they did there would be no point in operating a PF scheme as it would soon get around people who would start to use this as an excuse (by this i am referring to fare dodgers not the OP) .

 

[Mojo]

Because if they did there would be no point in operating a PF scheme as it would soon get around people who would start to use this as an excuse (by this i am referring to fare dodgers not the OP) .

I disagree, as there is no loss to the TOC and no benefit to the passenger through anyone doing this.

 

[b0b]

Because if they did there would be no point in operating a PF scheme as it would soon get around people who would start to use this as an excuse (by this i am referring to fare dodgers not the OP) .

I'm having trouble understanding how someone is able to dodge a fare by buying a ticket of at least the value of the fare they presumably are trying to dodge?

 

[north]

The official rule is that if a sales point/ticket office is unable to sell a ticket to the destination a customer requires, the customer should buy a ticket covering part of their journey then ask for an excess at the earliest possible opportunity. However, if your origin station is in a Penalty Fare zone, the TOC's Penalty Fare rules will take precedence over this.

I fail to see how the TOCs PF rules can take precedence over the NrCOC.

Indeed the NCOC specifically deal with Penalty Fares.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Their Penalty Fare rules are available online, on posters at stations and in leaflet form. You can hardly acccuse them of obfuscation.

Sadly, not all PF posters are correct!

(click to enlarge)
This large poster assures passengers that PFs only apply to East Midlands trains! Completely false.

 

[moonrakerz]

I fail to see how the TOCs PF rules can take precedence over the NrCOC.

There are no such things as "TOCs PF rules": the rules for setting up and operating a PF are clearly laid down by DfT.

This is to stop each TOC "doing it's own thing" - BUT the TOCs appear to be doing this anyway - someone needs to challenge this in Court, but who is going to do that for 20 quid ??

The TOCs know that no one will - so the passenger gets screwed every time !

 

[Ivo]

There are no such things as "TOCs PF rules": the rules for setting up and operating a PF are clearly laid down by DfT.

This is to stop each TOC "doing it's own thing" - BUT the TOCs appear to be doing this anyway - someone needs to challenge this in Court, but who is going to do that for 20 quid ??

The TOCs know that no one will - so the passenger gets screwed every time !

Perhaps it is time for RailUK to step in. For this, we will need one RPI and one non-RPI to volunteer themselves.

The non-RPI undertakes a journey with an extremely marginal case for a PF such as this. The RPI, who would obviously be working but would be aware of the action, then "catches" the non-RPI with his marginal ticket, and issues a contentious PF (fully aware of what is going on, without his TOC's knowledge), and then the non-RPI then makes a legal challenge against the TOC in court, "without" his knowing the identity of the RPI ("It didn't occur to me to check at the time, and I don't remember much about his appearance") when in reality he knows the RPI through here. The non-RPI then proves that the TOCs are largely ignoring the official guidelines - and the court acts accordingly.

We could actually pull a move on the average passenger's behalf here. The TOCs need to be taught to play fair - and to train their staff properly (and for the staff to be courteous as is true of non-transport public sectors). Remember that mystery shopper idea I had a while ago? I might just try that one on my own, at various locations across the country...

I'm starting to sound like Yorkie

 

[Dreadnought]

Meanwhile, serial fare evaders continue to get away with most of their journeys, happily paying out the odd £20 when they get caught, knowing they will save money over a longer period.

This is the one bit that caught my attention. Do TOCs not keep records of penalty fares issued?

If the same names keep appearing at the same locations is there not some way that the TOCs can prosecute these people for being serial fare dodgers?

 

[Greenback]

I think we have discussed this on here before, and IIRC the consensus was that a PF was like an on the spot fine - they are not cumulative and receiving x number of them does not eman anyone will be prosecuted.

Apologies if I've got confused or mis remember the debate!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Good luck with an appeal, but the Penalty Fare rules in that leaflet are pretty succint and I can't see the appeals board overturning it on sympathy grounds or your good intentions. Technically, the OP not only travelled with an invalid ticket beyond University, but did not seek to get the issue resolved at when there were opportunities available. The PF was issued perfectly legitimately I'm afraid. The argument of having paid the correct amount is not strong enough on its own, the OP is at the mercy of the TOC in this case.

I'm afraid your argments are not too strong wither. Where is the advice/instructions on what to do in particular situations that is not contradictory, inadequate or comprehensive? As we have established on these sorts of threads, even many staff have difficulty with the concept of zero over distance excesses. How is an average person supposed to KNOW all this, and how are they supposed to know that they don't know?!

This seems to be similar (but not identical) to my PF for not buying a ticket extension when I couldn't actually get one from the starting station. I won that appeal.

If you need to get a ticket extension and a TVM won't issue them, because the railway seems to assume everyone would simply buy a ticket starting from the station before their destination, then it just shows what a nonsense ticketing is - especially when TVMs are often the ONLY way of buying a ticket now.

Surely, anyone that did abuse the TVM could lie at the ticket office just the same? The solution is, if caught either way, you prosecute IN COURT for fraud.

It's even more ridiculous when permit to travel machines have been removed from many stations, as it allowed people to get away with buying a 5p ticket and then not being able to be given a PF (if 'caught' within a certain time).

Quite right. The money driven drive towards fewer staffed ticket offices, reduced operating hours of those that remain, inflexible TVM;s, amd penalty fares is a disgrace. It should never have been allowed.

???

Their Penalty Fare rules are available online, on posters at stations and in leaflet form. You can hardly acccuse them of obfuscation.

I can and will accuse them of bieng ambiguous, incorrect (as has been pointed out already) different between operators and badly enforced. The government needs to look closely at this and either tighten the rules and ensure they are being correctly followed, or even better, abolish them completely.

I'm having trouble understanding how someone is able to dodge a fare by buying a ticket of at least the value of the fare they presumably are trying to dodge?

Indeed. So am I. Those who are valiantly trying to defend the PF system all seem to be involved with it in some way, and are, despite their loyalty and valour, attempting to defend the indefensible.

 

[RJ]

Sadly, not all PF posters are correct!

View attachment 2898(click to enlarge)
This large poster assures passengers that PFs only apply to East Midlands trains! Completely false.

I'm guessing that poster appears at a station managed by EMT. Other TOCs run through the station who either don't do Penalty Fares, or do but not along the routes which pass through that station. EMT RPIs cannot Penalty Fare someone who did not arrive on one of their services. So where was the photograph taken?

I fail to see how the TOCs PF rules can take precedence over the NrCOC.

Indeed the NCOC specifically deal with Penalty Fares.

What I quoted was part of the Excess Fares rules. However, the Penalty Fares rules (if the TOC in question runs a PF scheme) will always take precedence over the Excess Fares Rules.

 

[EM2]

Sadly, not all PF posters are correct!
This large poster assures passengers that PFs only apply to East Midlands trains! Completely false.

Maybe they do, from that particular station?

 

[RJ]

I'm afraid your argments are not too strong wither. Where is the advice/instructions on what to do in particular situations that is not contradictory, inadequate or comprehensive? As we have established on these sorts of threads, even many staff have difficulty with the concept of zero over distance excesses. How is an average person supposed to KNOW all this, and how are they supposed to know that they don't know?!

Ok, read the following.

If you have failed to produce a valid ticket for the entire journey you are making (or have made), you are liable to pay a Penalty Fare, being either £20 or twice the standard fare to the next station stop (whichever is greater).

What if the ticket office is closed and the self service ticket machine/permit to travel machine is out of order?

[FONT=LMPreciousSans,LMPreciousSans][FONT=LMPreciousSans,LMPreciousSans]You can board the train and pay the correct fare for your trip. [/FONT]
[/FONT]

Now relate this to the case in question. Did the OP fail to produce a valid ticket for the entire journey? Yes. Did the OP have an opportunity to buy the correct ticket? Yes, from the guard on either of the two trains. Therefore the Penalty Fare was issued legitimately, unless you can quote me something specific which contradicts this?

Source: http://www.londonmidland.com/download/9800.7/revised-penalty-fares-booklet/

 

[mumrar]

Why does everybody think they should be told all of this information they're 'not expected to know'? TOCs don't run schools for customers, and there are posters and signs EVERYWHERE on stations to do with various information, rules or other instructions. If, and I truly mean if, I got caught with a load of canabis that I thought could be classified as 'personal use', but I got charged as having 'intent to supply', should I complain that nobody at the Police force told me how much was allowed.

Whilst the country has become bogged down in rules and regulations as part of the alleged 'Nanny state', we similarly have a growing number of 'wet' people who expect to be told everything from how to raise their kids, to what to feed their family etc. People need to get a bit of responsibility for themselves, and take account of what they do. Whilst the OP indeed couldn't purchase the ticket required, she also mentioned that she purchases these tickets many times, and knows exactly what is wrong with the ticket she got. Yet at no time did she try to rectify it, despite knowing this. I still think this PF was harsh, but have people not heard of helping themselves out first??

If I paid £20 for some pick your own strawberries and left with £20 of grapes it matters not about the value. When I paid my £20, I entered in to a contract for strawberries, so I'd be breaching that contract surely.

 

[MikeWh]

If I paid £20 for some pick your own strawberries and left with £20 of grapes it matters not about the value. When I paid my £20, I entered in to a contract for strawberries, so I'd be breaching that contract surely.

Indeed, but this person paid a fare to travel a distance and travelled a little extra, so it's not quite the same thing really. Especially as the extra wouldn't have cost any more.

I'm going to risk being slapped down for common sense again here. Perhaps when a ticket is sold that could be legitimately used to travel further at no extra charge then the full extent of the journey should be shown. So in this case the TVM should print Birmingham International to Selly Oak on the ticket even though it was purchased at University. The outward portion could even show Selly Oak to Birmingham International to stress the point. The ticket would still have the station code printed as part of the ticket number so an RPI would know where it was purchased.

 

[Greenback]

Ok, read the following.
Now relate this to the case in question. Did the OP fail to produce a valid ticket for the entire journey? Yes. Did the OP have an opportunity to buy the correct ticket? Yes, from the guard on either of the two trains. Therefore the Penalty Fare was issued legitimately, unless you can quote me something specific which contradicts this?

Source: http://www.londonmidland.com/download/9800.7/revised-penalty-fares-booklet/

The question is where is the help and advice to advise passengers in these circumstanbces what they should do? The Op felt they had to purchase some sort of ticket to avoid the PF in the first place. Most honest people to try and ensure they have a ticket before a train boarding wherever possible, even where there are no PF's in operation. When there are notices detailing the fine and dire consequences of not having a ticket, it;s not surprising that the Op bought a ticket from the TVM. As it was exactly the same fare as the ticket she normally bought, how coudl she possibly believe she would be penalised for it? Oh, sorry, yes, all travellers are supposed to be ticketing experts.

Why does everybody think they should be told all of this information they're 'not expected to know'? TOCs don't run schools for customers, and there are posters and signs EVERYWHERE on stations to do with various information, rules or other instructions. If, and I truly mean if, I got caught with a load of canabis that I thought could be classified as 'personal use', but I got charged as having 'intent to supply', should I complain that nobody at the Police force told me how much was allowed.

Whilst the country has become bogged down in rules and regulations as part of the alleged 'Nanny state', we similarly have a growing number of 'wet' people who expect to be told everything from how to raise their kids, to what to feed their family etc. People need to get a bit of responsibility for themselves, and take account of what they do. Whilst the OP indeed couldn't purchase the ticket required, she also mentioned that she purchases these tickets many times, and knows exactly what is wrong with the ticket she got. Yet at no time did she try to rectify it, despite knowing this. I still think this PF was harsh, but have people not heard of helping themselves out first??

If I paid £20 for some pick your own strawberries and left with £20 of grapes it matters not about the value. When I paid my £20, I entered in to a contract for strawberries, so I'd be breaching that contract surely.

I have a lot of sympathy for some of the views expressed on the 'nanny state' and personal responsibility. It is my contention that the OP was trying to do the right thing, which seems to have counted against her. I don't think we can say that helping honest people to avoid a penalty fare is spoon feeding them in any way.

Having said that, the repsonse of the pick your own farm would probably not be to fine the person £100 (5 times the origianl amount, as I think in this example!). They would most likely, I venture to say, just think well, they've got £20 worth of something, and they have paid £20, so no one has gained an no one has lost. A measured and proportionate response, as I'm sure everyone will agree.

As for why people should be told everything they need to know, that's easy! it's because they are customers, and it's in every businesses interests to assist their customers to ensure their customers are happy and will use the company again. In my business I know that some people require more assistance than other in understanding certain things, and so i attempt to make everyhting as clear as I can. This isn;t spoon feeding, or people avoiding their responsibilities - it's being open and transparent and, hopefully, avoiding misunderstandings.

Sadly, this doesn't seem to apply on the railway, where passengers are seen by TOC's are financial cows to be milked dry in whatever way they can get away with.

 

[moonrakerz]

The DfT rules say this:

"a Passengers must be fully informed before they get on a penalty fares train or enter a compulsory ticket area that they need to buy a ticket or permit to travel before starting their journey, and that they may have to pay a penalty if they do not."

Just visually think about your station:

Does every passenger entering the station have a clear view of a PF notice ?
Does the departure board (or similar) identify the train as a PF train ?
Is the train identified as a PF train ?


The ONLY station that I am aware of that does this "properly" is Waterloo.
1. There are plenty of posters around.
2. There are dot matrix signs by the barriers which state the PF policy is in force.
3. On the trains, before departure (to Salisbury/Bristol, anyway) announcements are made.

 

[RJ]

The question is where is the help and advice to advise passengers in these circumstanbces what they should do? The Op felt they had to purchase some sort of ticket to avoid the PF in the first place. Most honest people to try and ensure they have a ticket before a train boarding wherever possible, even where there are no PF's in operation. When there are notices detailing the fine and dire consequences of not having a ticket, it;s not surprising that the Op bought a ticket from the TVM. As it was exactly the same fare as the ticket she normally bought, how coudl she possibly believe she would be penalised for it? Oh, sorry, yes, all travellers are supposed to be ticketing experts.

Err, the guard present on either train the OP travelled on. The guard would have issued an excess at no cost upon hearing the situation. The OP knows that the guard can issue tickets so why she not ask to be sure of the situation? You don't have to be a ticketing expert to know that you don't travel beyond the validity of your ticket if you had the chance to buy the correct ticket. Common sense can do wonders for passengers and staff alike.