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Northern Service Reductions from 4th Jan 2022

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Nicholas Lewis

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This week has been particularly bad for some reason, although one benefit is that some of the Leeds - Sheffield stoppers have been running as 4 cars instead of 2 to prevent platforms from becoming blocked.

There's been occasions where 2 or 3 consecutive services have been cancelled, I think now would be a good time for Northern to look to seek ticket acceptance on local buses to prevent long waits for trains and reduce crowding on those which are still operating
Being operated by OLR hasn't helped at all and they don't even communicate to their passengers about what the underlying issues are and what they doing to sort it out. About time red wall Tories started putting pressure on Wendy Morton.
 
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northwichcat

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That's been happening in the West too.

Yep. The 22:42 Manchester to Chester has been cancelled for the last 3 nights, with there being 5 cancellations on the line in total on Thursday.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

There's been occasions where 2 or 3 consecutive services have been cancelled, I think now would be a good time for Northern to look to seek ticket acceptance on local buses to prevent long waits for trains and reduce crowding on those which are still operating

It would be good if they considered which towns don't have alternative train and bus services in the evening. They provide the only evening public transport service in towns such as Handforth, Poynton and Knutsford. On the other hand the 199 bus service runs almost the same route as trains between Stockport and Buxton and it continues to 11:30pm, so an ideal service to arrange ticket acceptance on.
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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It would be good if they considered which towns don't have alternative train and bus services in the evening. They provide the only evening public transport service in towns such as Handforth, Poynton and Knutsford.
Handforth, Poynton and Knutsford are all areas of high car ownership (I live in the Handforth area) and there are quite a number of taxi firms in those areas that show no sign of going out of business.
 

northwichcat

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Handforth, Poynton and Knutsford are all areas of high car ownership (I live in the Handforth area) and there are quite a number of taxi firms in those areas that show no sign of going out of business.

The three stations I listed get high usage compared to the level of service they get. Maybe people don't want to drive if in to Manchester for one reason or another? Maybe there's also a significant number of people who don't own cars?

Getting a taxi at short notice in Knutsford isn't easy. Around school starting and finishing times all the local firms deploy their resources on school contracts. If you want a taxi in Knutsford at 3pm, you can either wait until after 4pm for a local firm or phone up a Greater Manchester company and wait half an hour or so.
 

Watershed

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It would be good if they considered which towns don't have alternative train and bus services in the evening. They provide the only evening public transport service in towns such as Handforth, Poynton and Knutsford. On the other hand the 199 bus service runs almost the same route as trains between Stockport and Buxton and it continues to 11:30pm, so an ideal service to arrange ticket acceptance on.
Indeed, however it's not always that simple in practice. Buxton crews have an unusually large route card for a depot at the end of a 'branch', but they don't sign down to Stoke for example. So if there's a Piccadilly turn uncovered that involves a trip to Stoke, there's nothing to be gained by cancelling the last Buxtons, as they will be covered by Buxton crew.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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The three stations I listed get high usage compared to the level of service they get. Maybe people don't want to drive if in to Manchester for one reason or another? Maybe there's also a significant number of people who don't own cars?

Getting a taxi at short notice in Knutsford isn't easy. Around school starting and finishing times all the local firms deploy their resources on school contracts. If you want a taxi in Knutsford at 3pm, you can either wait until after 4pm for a local firm or phone up a Greater Manchester company and wait half an hour or so.
I made my posting, as in your earlier posting, you were specifically referring to evening services and now you have "moved the goalposts" to now refer to mid-afternoon services, which are a totally "different kettle of fish".
 

northwichcat

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I made my posting, as in your earlier posting, you were specifically referring to evening services and now you have "moved the goalposts" to now refer to mid-afternoon services, which are a totally "different kettle of fish".

I really didn't understand you were posting about. My earlier post referenced late trains from Manchester to Cheshire being cancelled. That means people who have already gone in to Manchester by train and need to get home are affected. As you were talking about car ownership and taxi firms in Cheshire, I presumed you were referring to people not bothering with the train in either direction because the service is so bad. If they don't use the train at all they will also need to make an earlier journey in to Manchester by road. Cars can't drive in to Manchester to fetch their owners home (yet)!
 

Peterthegreat

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Being operated by OLR hasn't helped at all and they don't even communicate to their passengers about what the underlying issues are and what they doing to sort it out. About time red wall Tories started putting pressure on Wendy Morton.
Absolutely spot on. And not just the red wall Tories. The Labour strongholds (yes there are some still!) in South and West Yorkshire should be highlighting Johnson's levelling up policies are, well, non existent when it comes to transport.
Northern are either completely incompetent and/or have been kidding themselves the problems will go away. A constant barrage of "train crew" shortages is beginning to sound like a stuck record.
 

londonmidland

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Haven’t really been following this thread but just looked at connections from Sheffield to Leeds to find there are several cancellations due to ‘a shortage of train drivers’.

How long has this been going on for now?
B10A0C9B-2860-4B2C-9871-EFCAEAADF4FC.png
 

johnnychips

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I am sure this has been mentioned in another thread which I can’t find, but why are Northern running stoppers (Sat 12th) from Manchester to Edale not Sheffield when TPE and EMR are running relatively normally?
 

northernchris

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Being operated by OLR hasn't helped at all and they don't even communicate to their passengers about what the underlying issues are and what they doing to sort it out. About time red wall Tories started putting pressure on Wendy Morton.

Indeed, the OLR and Tricia Williams are the worst things to have plagued Northern. It's so frustrating that no one on the ground knows what's happening, it must be awful for the traincrew and platform staff to be constantly dealing with frustrated passengers, and surely it's only a matter of time until they start leaving, further adding to Northern's staffing issues.

It would be good if they considered which towns don't have alternative train and bus services in the evening. They provide the only evening public transport service in towns such as Handforth, Poynton and Knutsford. On the other hand the 199 bus service runs almost the same route as trains between Stockport and Buxton and it continues to 11:30pm, so an ideal service to arrange ticket acceptance on.
Or even try to consider which routes are suffering from cancellations on the day. 5 Mid Cheshire services cancelled in one day is poor, and if these are crewed by Piccadilly then cancelling Rose Hills would be more logical, as it wasn't that long ago Northern's management were saying this route had lower passenger numbers and alternative rail/tram services nearby

Another frustrating thing about this shambles is the ticketing. Northern aren't easing restrictions to allow travel via alternative routes. For example, the Huddersfield - Bradford service was reduced to 2 hourly back in January yet most days these week has seen cancellations creating at times gaps of 8 hours, but didn't permit travel via Leeds. I've also seen passengers asking if Leeds - Swinton would be valid via Doncaster as 2 services in a row have been cancelled, only for Northern to refuse.
 

Watershed

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I am sure this has been mentioned in another thread which I can’t find, but why are Northern running stoppers (Sat 12th) from Manchester to Edale not Sheffield when TPE and EMR are running relatively normally?
It's down to reduced capacity at the south side of Sheffield station, due to engineering works. So some trains need to be removed to make it work.

Another frustrating thing about this shambles is the ticketing. Northern aren't easing restrictions to allow travel via alternative routes. For example, the Huddersfield - Bradford service was reduced to 2 hourly back in January yet most days these week has seen cancellations creating at times gaps of 8 hours, but didn't permit travel via Leeds. I've also seen passengers asking if Leeds - Swinton would be valid via Doncaster as 2 services in a row have been cancelled, only for Northern to refuse.
If a delay of more than an hour is anticipated, they are obliged to help you get to the destination by the fastest means possible. Whether that's allowing you to go via an ordinarily non-permitted route, or allowing travel with another operator on a TOC-specific ticket, or arranging ticket acceptance with buses.
 

johnnychips

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It's down to reduced capacity at the south side of Sheffield station, due to engineering works. So some trains need to be removed to make it work.
Thank you for the explanation. They were indeed replacing the track and sleepers in platforms 1 and 2 this afternoon.
 

northernchris

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It's down to reduced capacity at the south side of Sheffield station, due to engineering works. So some trains need to be removed to make it work.


If a delay of more than an hour is anticipated, they are obliged to help you get to the destination by the fastest means possible. Whether that's allowing you to go via an ordinarily non-permitted route, or allowing travel with another operator on a TOC-specific ticket, or arranging ticket acceptance with buses.

Thanks, Northern really need to start promoting this especially given the amount of times consecutive trains are now cancelled
 

Bletchleyite

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It's down to reduced capacity at the south side of Sheffield station, due to engineering works. So some trains need to be removed to make it work.


If a delay of more than an hour is anticipated, they are obliged to help you get to the destination by the fastest means possible. Whether that's allowing you to go via an ordinarily non-permitted route, or allowing travel with another operator on a TOC-specific ticket, or arranging ticket acceptance with buses.

Where is that right enshrined?
 

Peterthegreat

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Haven’t really been following this thread but just looked at connections from Sheffield to Leeds to find there are several cancellations due to ‘a shortage of train drivers’.

How long has this been going on for now?
View attachment 111348
I suggest the problems started with the new franchise commitments made by Arriva following their winning bid for the franchise starting 2016. Following a couple of decades of "non growth" they committed to running more trains on several routes. More trains = more staff. Some of these were recruited but, for various reasons, the May 2018 timetable was a disaster, particularly in the Manchester area. A lot of time and effort went into trying to sort out the "Manchester Mess" whilst (and this is my opinion) neglecting other parts of the network. Some of the changes originally proposed for May 2019 were postponed until December 2019 and additional trains were introduced on a number of routes. Then along came Covid.......
A number of services were cut (originally stated to reflect reduced demand) and by the December 2020 a number of these cuts had become "permanent". My MP was told these cuts were primarily due to the Covid crisis seriously affecting the ability to train further drivers. However the base 2020/21 service did maintain a service on most routes at a level which was just about acceptable although with too many cancellations. The December 2021 timetable increased services on some routes but in January 2022 a number of services were slashed or replaced by buses. This was "blamed" on Omicron and the large number of staff off sick or isolating. Although the number of Omicron cases has decreased services levels have not increased nor do any seem to be in the pipeline. And to make it worse Northern are still struggling to run services with far, far too many cancellations on top of the already thinned out services.
 

M60lad

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Regarding cancellations to Leeds-Sheffield services an interesting one was last night when 195020 worked 17:44 Leeds-Sheffield via Barnsley Express service now in theory it should have then run 19:03 Leeds-Nottingham service but this was cancelled throughout in theory due to shortage of train crew but instead it was routed into Platform 11 at Leeds and then formed 19:12 Leeds-Manchester Victoria via Bradford Interchange service so was 19:03 cancelled due to lack of crew or was it cancelled so they could use the train for 19:12 from Leeds-Victoria?
 

sportzbar

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Regarding cancellations to Leeds-Sheffield services an interesting one was last night when 195020 worked 17:44 Leeds-Sheffield via Barnsley Express service now in theory it should have then run 19:03 Leeds-Nottingham service but this was cancelled throughout in theory due to shortage of train crew but instead it was routed into Platform 11 at Leeds and then formed 19:12 Leeds-Manchester Victoria via Bradford Interchange service so was 19:03 cancelled due to lack of crew or was it cancelled so they could use the train for 19:12 from Leeds-Victoria?
It's possible that they didn't have available crew who signed Leeds-Nottingham but did have a crew that signed Leeds-Man Vic. Pointless having a unit sat about when it could be used instead for another service which may well have been for what ever reason without a unit to operate it.
 

Peterthegreat

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Regarding cancellations to Leeds-Sheffield services an interesting one was last night when 195020 worked 17:44 Leeds-Sheffield via Barnsley Express service now in theory it should have then run 19:03 Leeds-Nottingham service but this was cancelled throughout in theory due to shortage of train crew but instead it was routed into Platform 11 at Leeds and then formed 19:12 Leeds-Manchester Victoria via Bradford Interchange service so was 19:03 cancelled due to lack of crew or was it cancelled so they could use the train for 19:12 from Leeds-Victoria?
First of all a slight correction. 195020 worked the 17.44 Sheffield - Leeds (not Leeds to Sheffield). As you say the stock should have returned to Nottingham. I suspect it went to Manchester as the incoming train from Chester terminated at Man Vic (train fault?). Staff shortages on Leeds to Sheffield (all routes) services are rife so I suspect, on balance, it was actually staff shortage that caused the cancellation.
 

northernchris

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I suggest the problems started with the new franchise commitments made by Arriva following their winning bid for the franchise starting 2016. Following a couple of decades of "non growth" they committed to running more trains on several routes. More trains = more staff. Some of these were recruited but, for various reasons, the May 2018 timetable was a disaster, particularly in the Manchester area. A lot of time and effort went into trying to sort out the "Manchester Mess" whilst (and this is my opinion) neglecting other parts of the network. Some of the changes originally proposed for May 2019 were postponed until December 2019 and additional trains were introduced on a number of routes. Then along came Covid.......
A number of services were cut (originally stated to reflect reduced demand) and by the December 2020 a number of these cuts had become "permanent". My MP was told these cuts were primarily due to the Covid crisis seriously affecting the ability to train further drivers. However the base 2020/21 service did maintain a service on most routes at a level which was just about acceptable although with too many cancellations. The December 2021 timetable increased services on some routes but in January 2022 a number of services were slashed or replaced by buses. This was "blamed" on Omicron and the large number of staff off sick or isolating. Although the number of Omicron cases has decreased services levels have not increased nor do any seem to be in the pipeline. And to make it worse Northern are still struggling to run services with far, far too many cancellations on top of the already thinned out services.

Yes, you would think by now staff absences would be lower than they were at the beginning of the year, so some of the 'temporarily withdrawn' services should have been able to be reinstated

I sense a further reduced timetable coming soon as this level of performance isn't acceptable, and can't be far off the May 2018 shambles
 

Greybeard33

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Yes, you would think by now staff absences would be lower than they were at the beginning of the year, so some of the 'temporarily withdrawn' services should have been able to be reinstated

I sense a further reduced timetable coming soon as this level of performance isn't acceptable, and can't be far off the May 2018 shambles
Covid has not gone away, and indeed the latest ONS, React and Zoe surveys show that prevalence has begun to increase again throughout the country. I understand that the level of staff sickness absence is still much higher than would normally be expected at this time of year. Also ASLEF terminated the Northern driver rest day working agreement in January, which has reduced rostering flexibility and made it more likely that cancellations will occur when a driver phones in sick on the day.

In the Rail North Committee meeting on 9th March, Nick Donovan, Northern MD, gave an operational update presentation, which can be viewed in the following webcast starting at 0:41:30:
In summary, a major issue in driver resourcing is a backlog of over a year in route and traction knowledge training days, due to Covid restrictions on in-cab training. So the problem is not so much a shortage in the total number of drivers, more that it is difficult to roster a driver with the right combination of competencies needed for each individual service. Also there have been large numbers of drivers retiring or resigning, so to some extent it is a case of "two steps forward, one step back" on training. Northern is unlikely to clear the training backlog until well into next year and it may well continue into 2024.

Nick said that the current reduced timetable is planned to continue more or less as is until December, but with some "adjustments" from May (some further reductions, some reinstatements), determined through analysis of where demand recovery is strongest and where the revenue and economic benefits will be greatest.

My impression is that Northern is under considerable financial pressure from Government to reduce operating costs and maximise ticket revenue.
 

mandub

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As above - the main short term issue is no rest day working agreement in place, which the company have relied on to fulfill the train plan for a couple of years.
 

northwichcat

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Covid has not gone away, and indeed the latest ONS, React and Zoe surveys show that prevalence has begun to increase again throughout the country. I understand that the level of staff sickness absence is still much higher than would normally be expected at this time of year.

If you look at the latest ONS map, it shows a very different picture to what it's shown in the past. Manchester, Leeds, Bradford, Sheffield, Newcastle, Burnley and Blackburn all with infection rates below the national average. The South Coast, on the other hand has well above the national average. If you zoom in on the purple area around Brighton it shows pockets of black around a number of the seaside resorts. Based on that map I would expect an operator like Southern to be in a far worse position to Northern.

 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Yes, you would think by now staff absences would be lower than they were at the beginning of the year, so some of the 'temporarily withdrawn' services should have been able to be reinstated
Surely the train operating company would be in possession of relevant sick notes covering staff absences caused by illness, if asked by a national body.
 

northwichcat

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Surely the train operating company would be in possession of relevant sick notes covering staff absences caused by illness, if asked by a national body.

I don't know about Northern employees but I've never been asked to produce one for a short period of sickness and even if I was it would be a self-certification one. Only longer absences need a GP signed one. There would be proof of test results for COVID through.
 

Iskra

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More disruption on the Hallam Line today due to cancellations and engineering. I’m currently marooned in Barnsley due to a cancellation meaning no stopping service to Chapeltown. The timetable is already poor on a Sunday without cancellations. And the remaining 2 car services are crush-loaded, it’s amazing people still bother with train travel.
 

scrapy

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Surely the train operating company would be in possession of relevant sick notes covering staff absences caused by illness, if asked by a national body.
What national body is this? Im sure sick notes would be confidential between employer and employee.
 

Peterthegreat

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More disruption on the Hallam Line today due to cancellations and engineering. I’m currently marooned in Barnsley due to a cancellation meaning no stopping service to Chapeltown. The timetable is already poor on a Sunday without cancellations. And the remaining 2 car services are crush-loaded, it’s amazing people still bother with train travel.
Marooned? There is a train in around 30 minutes. But don't miss that as the next train is a bus at 22.20.....<(<(
 
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