Northern Service Reductions from 4th Jan 2022

[JRT]

North Bradford Electrics and
North Leeds line via Harrogate
21–25 February additional trains CAN

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

You can understand why ASLEF are balloting for strike action.

On the other side of that particular coin, the RMT during their long strike scenario in recent times have prepared the travelling public in the Northern franchise area for regular travel service disruptions.

 

[Moonshot]

On the other side of that particular coin, the RMT during their long strike scenario in recent times have prepared the travelling public in the Northern franchise area for regular travel service disruptions.

Staff are perfectly entitled to withdraw their labour after a ballot.

 

[northernchris]

You can understand why ASLEF are balloting for strike action.

Absolutely, it seems Northern treat their staff as poor as they treat their passengers

Maybe they are providing over-provision on another route in the area?

Yesterday I caught the 14:39 Manchester to Chester via Altrincham, a 2 carriage train. I arrived on the platform in time for to see the train arrive off the 13:02 Chester to Manchester and there must have been more passengers alighting than seats. As the 14:39 I was on was pulling out a new 3 carriage train on an adjacent track was heading to Rose Hill Marple, it had less than 10 passengers on it, with the front 2 carriages completely empty. Yes I mean 10, on a Saturday, in Manchester! The concourse at Piccadilly was actually rammed, so lots of people travelling, just hardly anyone for stations to Rose Hill Marple.

The Rose Hill is an interesting route, it clearly has low passenger numbers as Northern withdrew most services in autumn 2020, but I seem to think some services interlink with the Sheffield service which may explain the over capacity

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Absolutely, it seems Northern treat their staff as poor as they treat their passengers

Is this a common trait with OLR organizations?

 

[tbtc]

Years ago I heard crews wonder why Rose Hill trains were being sent out as 4 car on a Saturday when Hope Valley got a 2 car Pacer rammed too full to take any more. It's not new!

Did they ever find out why ?

It might be the short bay platform at the Sheffield end that causes the problems (just like the problem that capacity on the short bay platform at Leeds constrains trains lengths on the Barnsley line)

There are five through platforms at Sheffield, but not all of them are bi-directional, and Platform 1 is needed to access to the Northern sidings (for fuel etc) - EMT/EMR used to use 7 for some semi-fast London services, so that means 2C for some Hope Valley stoppers, and that platform is too short to accommodate much more than two coaches (and the pointwork means it can't be cheaply extended)

It's another case of the tail wagging the dog - very frustrating when there's a clear demand on summer weekends for extra capacity to the Hope Valley (but you can't just put extra stops on the TPE/EMR services as they have to meet fixed paths through bottlenecks like Castlefield so can't take the three/five minute "hit" of slowing down/ dwelling/ getting back up to line speed)

(I don't know why Rose Hill gets longer trains, I agree that it seems one of the quieter services out of Piccadilly, but it's not at the expense of carriages to Sheffield AFAICS)

 

[Failed Unit]

It might be the short bay platform at the Sheffield end that causes the problems (just like the problem that capacity on the short bay platform at Leeds constrains trains lengths on the Barnsley line)

There are five through platforms at Sheffield, but not all of them are bi-directional, and Platform 1 is needed to access to the Northern sidings (for fuel etc) - EMT/EMR used to use 7 for some semi-fast London services, so that means 2C for some Hope Valley stoppers, and that platform is too short to accommodate much more than two coaches (and the pointwork means it can't be cheaply extended)

It's another case of the tail wagging the dog - very frustrating when there's a clear demand on summer weekends for extra capacity to the Hope Valley (but you can't just put extra stops on the TPE/EMR services as they have to meet fixed paths through bottlenecks like Castlefield so can't take the three/five minute "hit" of slowing down/ dwelling/ getting back up to line speed)

(I don't know why Rose Hill gets longer trains, I agree that it seems one of the quieter services out of Piccadilly, but it's not at the expense of carriages to Sheffield AFAICS)

I wonder if running through Sheffield could be the solution? (Could be one for another thread)

 

[Peterthegreat]

I wonder if running through Sheffield could be the solution? (Could be one for another thread)

I've wondered that too.

 

[Killingworth]

I wonder if running through Sheffield could be the solution? (Could be one for another thread)

No, it would add congestion and further potential delays.

However the 2c issue may be overplayed. The weekend problems are currently being addressed by Northern with mostly 3 car 195s and 4 car 150s.

Today Northern trains may have been full and late, bur TPE and EMR have been largely absent.

 

[Peterthegreat]

No, it would add congestion and further potential delays.

However the 2c issue may be overplayed. The weekend problems are currently being addressed by Northern with mostly 3 car 195s and 4 car 150s.

Today Northern trains may have been full and late, bur TPE and EMR have been largely absent.

Why would it add to congestion? If it formed a stopping service to Doncaster/Leeds/Huddersfield/Retford it should actually reduce congestion.

 

[Killingworth]

Why would it add to congestion? If it formed a stopping service to Doncaster/Leeds/Huddersfield/Retford it should actually reduce congestion.

We had a service that ran through from Adwick, possibly the 17.14 from Sheffield. It was notorious for running late into Sheffield.

A big part of why westbound Northern stopping services often start late is because they've had to wait for the delayed preceeding TPE service - which has been delayed by a late running service from Huddersfield, Leeds, Scarborough or Doncaster.

 

[Peterthegreat]

We had a service that ran through from Adwick, possibly the 17.14 from Sheffield. It was notorious for running late into Sheffield.

A big part of why westbound Northern stopping services often start late is because they've had to wait for the delayed preceeding TPE service - which has been delayed by a late running service from Huddersfield, Leeds, Scarborough or Doncaster.

The train arriving from Manchester at xx.05 can arrive p1A and form the xx.15 stopping service to Leeds via Moorthorpe.
The stopping service from Leeds can arrive p8 at xx.01 and form the xx.14 to Manchester.
This substantially removes conflicting moves at the north end of the station and should allow faster entries as the approach control to the bays would not be needed.

 

[Watershed]

The train arriving from Manchester at xx.05 can arrive p1A and form the xx.15 stopping service to Leeds via Moorthorpe.
The stopping service from Leeds can arrive p8 at xx.01 and form the xx.14 to Manchester.
This substantially removes conflicting moves at the north end of the station and should allow faster entries as the approach control to the bays would not be needed.

Indeed. There's nothing major stopping that from happening - although you would need to change the diagrams slightly to make sure that you didn't have any 158s. But the issue is that you're joining up two stoppers, each of which are regulated plenty of times for fast services. It would certainly not help the performance side of things overall, even if a conflicting move is eliminated at the north end.

 

[Killingworth]

The train arriving from Manchester at xx.05 can arrive p1A and form the xx.15 stopping service to Leeds via Moorthorpe.
The stopping service from Leeds can arrive p8 at xx.01 and form the xx.14 to Manchester.
This substantially removes conflicting moves at the north end of the station and should allow faster entries as the approach control to the bays would not be needed.

Currently the Hope Valley stopping service is operated by Manchester based crews and units. Out and straight back.

The scope to acquire delays increases the further any train gets from the core Sheffield - Piccadilly section. That's why I fear we may be having to rely on the stopper to cover for delayed and cancelled express services to and from Liverpool more often than the planners would want us to expect.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Currently the Hope Valley stopping service is operated by Manchester based crews and units. Out and straight back.

The scope to acquire delays increases the further any train gets from the core Sheffield - Piccadilly section. That's why I fear we may be having to rely on the stopper to cover for delayed and cancelled express services to and from Liverpool more often than the planners would want us to expect.

I agree. The current problem with the stopping service is that it is being used to carry end to end passengers because of issues with TPE and EMR. I am sure if those problems were resolved many of the overcrowding and punctuality issues with the Northern service would decrease substantially.

 

[Killingworth]

I agree. The current problem with the stopping service is that it is being used to carry end to end passengers because of issues with TPE and EMR. I am sure if those problems were resolved many of the overcrowding and punctuality issues with the Northern service would decrease substantially.

They would, but pricing is significant too. A single end to end Northern ticket can be a third or quarter the price of a TPE or EMR fare in the same hour.

 

[M60lad]

Didn't there used to be a couple of trains that ran to/from Adwick at peak times only from/to Manchester? How were these worked considering through journies add to congestion and delays

 

[Greybeard33]

They would, but pricing is significant too. A single end to end Northern ticket can be a third or quarter the price of a TPE or EMR fare in the same hour.

That is easily fixed. It only needs a DfT official to fire off an email to Northern....

 

[YorksLad12]

Indeed. There's nothing major stopping that from happening - although you would need to change the diagrams slightly to make sure that you didn't have any 158s. But the issue is that you're joining up two stoppers, each of which are regulated plenty of times for fast services. It would certainly not help the performance side of things overall, even if a conflicting move is eliminated at the north end.

Currently the Hope Valley stopping service is operated by Manchester based crews and units. Out and straight back.

The scope to acquire delays increases the further any train gets from the core Sheffield - Piccadilly section. That's why I fear we may be having to rely on the stopper to cover for delayed and cancelled express services to and from Liverpool more often than the planners would want us to expect.

I was wondering about the crewing as well. Then I thought: instead of thinking of it as a through service think of it as a through unit, with a crew change at Sheffield. But then there's still the risk of importing delays from one leg to the other.

 

[_toommm_]

Didn't there used to be a couple of trains that ran to/from Adwick at peak times only from/to Manchester? How were these worked considering through journies add to congestion and delays

There was one that left Adwick around 16:30 in the evening which made the 17:14 from Sheffield IIRC. Part of the problem was it only being a two-car Pacer, but naturally it often picked up delays at Doncaster and at Nunnery Main Line Jn. as that is a massive bottleneck at Sheffield.

 

[Iskra]

I think the same can be said for Sheffield - Gainsborough Central. It may not seem an important route but the consequence is that Sheffield to Lincoln trains have to continue to call at all stations between Sheffield and Worksop.

And it would basically be closing the line, with the absence of a Brigg Line weekend service.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Feb 2022 ==

Staff are perfectly entitled to withdraw their labour after a ballot.

And customers, their custom. Where does that leave rail workers?

 

[Watershed]

I was wondering about the crewing as well. Then I thought: instead of thinking of it as a through service think of it as a through unit, with a crew change at Sheffield. But then there's still the risk of importing delays from one leg to the other.

It being a through unit could actually cost crew; whilst there are agreements for crew to swap to an adjacent unit at passing loops on little used lines (Heart of Wales, Far North etc.), this practice isn't normally acceptable. Particularly at a large station like Sheffield, where it may not be apparent whether the train in the opposite direction has arrived yet.

So since each unit would need crew at all times (and there's unlikely to be enough time to dispose/immobilise, walk over to the 'return' unit and mobilise/prep) you would essentially need the crew to step back an hour, every hour throughout the day.

That's great if you want to fit in a break, but not so good if it means you now bust the maximum turn length with two Sheffield returns followed by another piece of work, for example.

 

[Killingworth]

That is easily fixed. It only needs a DfT official to fire off an email to Northern....

Gerroff, I like the lower fares!

 

[Falcon1200]

Staff are perfectly entitled to withdraw their labour after a ballot.

Of course they are, but passengers are equally perfectly entitled (or perhaps forced) to find other ways to travel, and given that passenger numbers are down due to Covid and the train service is already poor (through no fault of the staff), to make it even worse by striking seems utter madness.

And customers, their custom. Where does that leave rail workers?

IMHO, in a very worrying situation, but I cannot see how striking will help.

 

[Moonshot]

Of course they are, but passengers are equally perfectly entitled (or perhaps forced) to find other ways to travel, and given that passenger numbers are down due to Covid and the train service is already poor (through no fault of the staff), to make it even worse by striking seems utter madness.



IMHO, in a very worrying situation, but I cannot see how striking will help.

I did warn about this at the back end of last year that industrial action was likely to be a big feature of 2022. And here we are.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I did warn about this at the back end of last year that industrial action was likely to be a big feature of 2022. And here we are.

Does this mean lots of RMT press releases of the type we all love, with reference to "basket cases", etc.

 

[Moonshot]

Does this mean lots of RMT press releases of the type we all love, with reference to "basket cases", etc.

Probably......but at the end of the day, it's the ballot paper what counts.

 

[johntea]

Northern seem to have some form of short staffing issue recently (around Yorkshire anyway), noticed quite a number of trains (timetabled as opposed to the 'Covid reductions' which have just vanished from the timetables) cancelled due to a shortage of train crew availability

In some cases they've even been having to cancel the last trains of the night which isn't ideal!

 

[Pinus contorta]

Northern seem to have some form of short staffing issue recently (around Yorkshire anyway), noticed quite a number of trains (timetabled as opposed to the 'Covid reductions' which have just vanished from the timetables) cancelled due to a shortage of train crew availability

In some cases they've even been having to cancel the last trains of the night which isn't ideal!

That's been happening in the West too.

 

[northernchris]

Northern seem to have some form of short staffing issue recently (around Yorkshire anyway), noticed quite a number of trains (timetabled as opposed to the 'Covid reductions' which have just vanished from the timetables) cancelled due to a shortage of train crew availability

In some cases they've even been having to cancel the last trains of the night which isn't ideal!

This week has been particularly bad for some reason, although one benefit is that some of the Leeds - Sheffield stoppers have been running as 4 cars instead of 2 to prevent platforms from becoming blocked.

There's been occasions where 2 or 3 consecutive services have been cancelled, I think now would be a good time for Northern to look to seek ticket acceptance on local buses to prevent long waits for trains and reduce crowding on those which are still operating