Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[BurtonM]

Note the custom 'Northern Electrics' logo.
I like it - I've tweeted Northern asking if similar graphics will be added to the 323, 333s and such - it'd make sense.

edit: no, it's a 319 thing "for the time being".

 

[Olaf]

It's possible. This is the first, but it's not to say that 362/363/365 won't be fully done by then, given the delays... :roll:

Northern did Tweet a picture earlier too...


Hope nobody misinterpreted '319 electric trains' as 319 of them!

In the replies, there was also possibly a vague suggestion that some units would be named. Someone Tweeted something and suggested they'd found the name for the first unit, to which Northern said "Stay tuned there will be more info on this soon!" (unless I've misinterpreted Northern's comment!)

Perhaps 'J J Thomson' would be an appropriate candidate.

 

[northwichcat]

Do we know how many units will be available by May when TPE will be using 6 x 156s. Hopefully 6 + but is this confirmed.

The plan is to get Airport-Lime Street services switched ASAP as TPE need a 156 for crew training purposes.

I think the plan is for 8 x DMUs freed up by May - to allow 6 to go to TPE, to allow the Todmorden curve extension and to allow Bolton corridor strengthening. However, TPE will take on more 156s than are being released so some Northern services will likely see a downgrade in rolling stock.
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Have you managed to lose 319365?!

They did such a good job refreshing it DfT decided it was too good for Northern and are swapping it for a non-refreshed unit.

Note the custom 'Northern Electrics' logo.
I like it - I've tweeted Northern asking if similar graphics will be added to the 323, 333s and such - it'd make sense.

edit: no, it's a 319 thing "for the time being".

It's just a marketing idea (perhaps imposed by DfT) to draw attention to the fact it's an electric train and not just an upgraded pair of 150s.

The 323s are running routes which have been electric for a long time - some since the late 1950s so I think it's a bit late to start drawing attention to the services being electric!

 

[158722]

Do we know how many units will be available by May when TPE will be using 6 x 156s. Hopefully 6 + but is this confirmed.

4 units have been done, with the last pair taking around 2 months and probably speeding up slightly as each unit is done.

No less than 5 units went into Wolverton between 13-16 Jan, plus another on Feb 3rd. I doubt they can be working on 6 units simultaneously, but perhaps the first of those 6 should emerge in early March, then late March and every 3-4 weeks after that? 6 by May looks more than do-able...

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....I think the plan is for 8 x DMUs freed up by May - to allow 6 to go to TPE, to allow the Todmorden curve extension and to allow Bolton corridor strengthening. However, TPE will take on more 156s than are being released so some Northern services will likely see a downgrade in rolling stock....

AIUI, MIA-LIV is expected to go electric in early March and MCV-LIV should be electric by the May timetable change. This should release a unit for Todmorden curve services, a unit for Bolton line strengthening and four units to TPE. Two Loco-Hauled sets will replace two 156s on Cumbrian coast duties in May.

 

[JaJaWa]

Northern just posted lots of photos here: https://www.pinterest.com/northernrailorg/northern-electrics/.

 

[po8crg]

And WGN-LIV?

 

[northwichcat]

And WGN-LIV?

I don't think the wires are expected to be ready until August.

 

[8A Rail]

It's possible. This is the first, but it's not to say that 362/363/365 won't be fully done by then, given the delays... :roll: ...................

I understand now that all FOUR units have now been done. So any further driver training - they will be seen complete in full livery.

The three Northern liveried 319s at Allerton are 362, 363 and 364. I believe 364 has Northern Logos now. Driver and guard training at Liverpool LS is nearing completion. Vic and Wigan start soon at Stockport and Preston respectively.

Driver training as I understand will continue on the Liverpool Lime St - Manchester Airport trains when the L&M electrified line is up and running until further units arrive in due course.

 

[childwallblues]

The three Northern liveried 319s at Allerton are 362, 363 and 364. I believe 364 has Northern Logos now. Driver and guard training at Liverpool LS is nearing completion. Vic and Wigan start soon at Stockport and Preston respectively.

What makes you think that the training of Lime Street train crews is nearly complete?

 

[Geeves]

Perhaps I should of said passing out of train crew is nearing levels to allow the services to run?

I have a few friends on Facebook who have all passed out on said traction recently.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Does anyone know whose decision it was many years ago to use "funereal purple" as a main colour scheme of the Northern Rail livery?

 

[fowler9]

If the 319's mean I am more likely to get a 142 or 150 than a 156 on the Oxford Road to Lime Streets because the 156's are going to FTPE I won't be very impressed. What an amazing improvement that would be.

 

[RobShipway]

If the 319's mean I am more likely to get a 142 or 150 than a 156 on the Oxford Road to Lime Streets because the 156's are going to FTPE I won't be very impressed. What an amazing improvement that would be.

Other than the 319/3's going to Northern and the class 156's going to FTPE there has not been a lot details of what is happening with the reshuffle.

Having seen the refurbishment done for Northern, the 319/3's look more comfortable than when they were in service as part of FCC, so I don't think you are getting London cast off's as you mention in the Class 156 to FTPE thread.

I would be very surprised if the 156's are replaced by 142's, you are more likely get the Class 150's in the short term and once either class 319 or 387 have started replacing 165's on the GWML it could be that some of those move North.

The only other alternative that I see, would be that some of the class 165's from the GWML go to Chiltern and replace the Class 172's that then go to Northern to replace the Class 150's.

 

[po8crg]

Aren't there gauge clearance issues with the 165s?

 

[edwin_m]

I don't see much chance of 165s going to Northern. Far better to move them to the non-electrified parts of FGW to displace their 150s and 158s for use by other operators. This partly gets round the gauge clearance issue and minimises the need for operators to take on classes they don't already use.

 

[childwallblues]

AIUI, MIA-LIV is expected to go electric in early March and MCV-LIV should be electric by the May timetable change. This should release a unit for Todmorden curve services, a unit for Bolton line strengthening and four units to TPE. Two Loco-Hauled sets will replace two 156s on Cumbrian coast duties in May.

I would be surprised if Todmorden Curve services were guaranteed to be 156.

 

[MK Tom]

Robbie's post didn't say 165s to Northern, it said 165s to Chiltern then 172s to Northern.

 

[RobShipway]

Robbie's post didn't say 165s to Northern, it said 165s to Chiltern then 172s to Northern.

It said both actually, but I think the 172's to Northern would be better.

 

[northwichcat]

I don't see much chance of 165s going to Northern. Far better to move them to the non-electrified parts of FGW to displace their 150s and 158s for use by other operators. This partly gets round the gauge clearance issue and minimises the need for operators to take on classes they don't already use.

There are actually routes in the North East where 165s could be used without infrastructure work. While routes like Cardiff-Portsmouth have been mooted as suitable for 16xs only certain sections of the routes would allow 16x operation currently and it won't be a cheap or overnight process to get 16xs cleared for the whole route.
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I would be surprised if Todmorden Curve services were guaranteed to be 156.

That's not what hairyhandedfool said. The 4 x 156s being freed up by 319s and loco-hauled are off to TPE along with 2 others. Todmorden Curve is almost certainly going to get a 142 or 150.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I understand now that all FOUR units have now been done. So any further driver training - they will be seen complete in full livery.


.

There are definitely at least 2 fully branded units. I've just gone past Allerton and there were 2 fully branded ones parked outside. Couldn't see what numbers they were though. Looked very smart.

 

[northwichcat]

Other than the 319/3's going to Northern and the class 156's going to FTPE there has not been a lot details of what is happening with the reshuffle.

...

I would be very surprised if the 156's are replaced by 142's, you are more likely get the Class 150's in the short term

All the threads seem to be discussing the same thing. Maybe we should just have one mega thread for everything in the North?

The plan for last December was for 2 x 319s to be introduced on Manchester Airport-Liverpool services releasing 2 x 156s. It was proposed the released 156s would go on to to Mid-Cheshire line services, an early ECS between Allerton and Chester would eliminate the need for one of the ECS movements from the Manchester area to Chester and leave a 142 and a 150 for other services. The 142 was to be used for strengthening a Hazel Grove-Preston diagram and a 150 for the Todmorden curve extension.

The plan now seems to be for the extra units for the Hazel Grove and Todmorden services to still happen but using units released off Victoria-Lime Street services instead.

So 2 of the 156s heading for TPE are the ones from Manchester Airport-Liverpool which were allocated for Mid-Cheshire services but hadn't been transferred yet.

Another 2 x 156s are ones released directly by using loco-hauled on Cumbrian Coast services.

So that leaves 2 unknown diagrams as losing 156s. With the service revisions affecting Bolton services during the Farnworth Tunnel works it's not easy to try and predict what'll happen.

 

[Wolfie]

The only other alternative that I see, would be that some of the class 165's from the GWML go to Chiltern and replace the Class 172's that then go to Northern to replace the Class 150's.

You do realise that Chiltern currently have all of 4 2-car 172s I assume? I don't see that replacing too many 150s... It would make more sense for the LO 172s which will be released when the GOBLIN is electrified to go to Chiltern so all of the non-gangway 172s (a grand total of 12!) are in one place - this could release 8 2-car 165s (unless Chiltern was aiming for fleet expansion)..

The other thing that would cause howls in the North about your suggestion is that 172s are designed with less seats/more standing space than the 150s...

There were reports that LM, as part of its franchise agreement, had an option to purchase "an additional 26 Class 172" - whether this option is still valid is unclear.

Alos, there are significant differences between the Chiltern and FGW 165s. Chiltern gave their 165s a major refurb (including fitting aircon, PIS etc) which FGW did not. The FGW variants are 90mph capable whereas Chiltern's are restricted to 75mph and thus operate on slow/stopping services... I have serious doubts that Chiltern would want FGW spec 165s...

 

[8A Rail]

There are definitely at least 2 fully branded units. I've just gone past Allerton and there were 2 fully branded ones parked outside. Couldn't see what numbers they were though. Looked very smart.

It is fact there are definitely all FOUR units branded - have been done during this week and confirmed from other sources. The other two 319's will be inside shed.

 

[swt_passenger]

Aren't there gauge clearance issues with the 165s?

Not for Chiltern, who run 165s. But that is completely academic because they are already 99% certain to be going to Bristol and Exeter.

 

[Wolfie]

Not for Chiltern, who run 165s. But that is completely academic because they are already 99% certain to be going to Bristol and Exeter.

Indeed. This would free up various Sprinters to go north...

 

[sprinterguy]

Does anyone know whose decision it was many years ago to use "funereal purple" as a main colour scheme of the Northern Rail livery?

Well it took whoever it was at Northern a good while to make their minds up, given the brace of 156s appearing in experimental schemes in the first year of the franchise.

 

[deltic08]

You do realise that Chiltern currently have all of 4 2-car 172s I assume? I don't see that replacing too many 150s... It would make more sense for the LO 172s which will be released when the GOBLIN is electrified to go to Chiltern so all of the non-gangway 172s (a grand total of 12!) are in one place - this could release 8 2-car 165s (unless Chiltern was aiming for fleet expansion)..

The other thing that would cause howls in the North about your suggestion is that 172s are designed with less seats/more standing space than the 150s...

There were reports that LM, as part of its franchise agreement, had an option to purchase "an additional 26 Class 172" - whether this option is still valid is unclear.

Alos, there are significant differences between the Chiltern and FGW 165s. Chiltern gave their 165s a major refurb (including fitting aircon, PIS etc) which FGW did not. The FGW variants are 90mph capable whereas Chiltern's are restricted to 75mph and thus operate on slow/stopping services... I have serious doubts that Chiltern would want FGW spec 165s...

The first D78s to the GOBLIN line then until completion of electrification, 172s to Chiltern and the 170s back to TPE. Problem solved.

 

[fowler9]

I feel sort of relieved. A friend working for Northern believes that the 156's going to FTPE will be from ones currently used on the Ringway runs and on Liverpool to Wigan and Victoria runs. Selfish of me I know but if they are getting 319's it is only fair us plebs on the CLC get to keep the 156's. Ha ha.

 

[deltic08]

It's possible. This is the first, but it's not to say that 362/363/365 won't be fully done by then, given the delays... :roll:

Have the bogies been refurbished or just painted?