Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[deltic08]

Surely Northern drivers would do Crewe-Allerton coupled on the rear of a 319 driver training run?

 

[8A Rail]

Surely Northern drivers would do Crewe-Allerton coupled on the rear of a 319 driver training run?

Assuming there is any driver training runs to begin with. 319363 was not tagged on to a driver training when is was moved from Crewe (ex Wolverton) to Allerton, although there were driver training runs operating that day. Also as others have stated, it is a GBRf contract ex Wolverton.

 

[Bantamzen]

Don't suppose if anyone knows if this move will run on Tuesday (Wolverton to Allerton) http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K97249/2015/02/17/advanced

Thanks, Sam

It's on the move as I type (approaching Crewe).

 

[class 9]

They could use a conductor if needed.

The trains when being moved from the works are 'off lease' they are not Northern Rails.
They are crewed by various FOC drivers, who generally are ex passenger men that have had traction reviews for the particular unit.

 

[8A Rail]

The trains when being moved from the works are 'off lease' they are not Northern Rails.
They are crewed by various FOC drivers, who generally are ex passenger men that have had traction reviews for the particular unit.

In the case of 319363, it was a Northern Rail driver that drove it from Crewe to Allerton but that was down to the journey unintentionally being spilt on the original day of delivery.

 

[sd0733]

Didnt get the numbers but todays Wolverton to Allerton was 2x319s. The front one was in FCc livery and the rear one in Northern colours.

 

[Whistler40145]

I think it was 319379+319361.

 

[deltic08]

I think it was 319379+319361.

So is that 5 refreshed 319s and one for driver training? Will they replace 5 diesel units on Manchester-Liverpools or 10?

 

[Class377/5]

I think it was 319379+319361.

Confirmed by videos online that this was the pairing with 379 still using Thameslink logos on the side.

 

[northwichcat]

So is that 5 refreshed 319s and one for driver training? Will they replace 5 diesel units on Manchester-Liverpools or 10?

Manchester Airport-Liverpool services are currently operated by 2 x 156s and 1 x 150, so 3 x 319s will release 3 x 2 car Sprinters.

Manchester Victoria/Warrington-Liverpool services are operated by a mix of 142s and 150s. Off-peak they are mainly in 2 car formations but there is some doubling up at peak times.

It's Liverpool-Wigan that really needs to switch to release 156s (which won't happen in May) as 4 x 156s are used on Liverpool-Wigan workings with at least 1 x 4 car 156 diagram.

 

[martynbristow]

Manchester Airport-Liverpool services are currently operated by 2 x 156s and 1 x 150, so 3 x 319s will release 3 x 2 car Sprinters.

Manchester Victoria/Warrington-Liverpool services are operated by a mix of 142s and 150s. Off-peak they are mainly in 2 car formations but there is some doubling up at peak times.

It's Liverpool-Wigan that really needs to switch to release 156s (which won't happen in May) as 4 x 156s are used on Liverpool-Wigan workings with at least 1 x 4 car 156 diagram.

Are there no peak doublings on the airport line, its been a long time since I've used the peak Airport service.

When will Victoria go electric as this will free up some doubled units too.

But will the airport line be able to release the units quickly. I'm going to put it out there that this isn't going to happen overnight!

 

[fowler9]

Manchester Airport-Liverpool services are currently operated by 2 x 156s and 1 x 150, so 3 x 319s will release 3 x 2 car Sprinters.

Manchester Victoria/Warrington-Liverpool services are operated by a mix of 142s and 150s. Off-peak they are mainly in 2 car formations but there is some doubling up at peak times.

It's Liverpool-Wigan that really needs to switch to release 156s (which won't happen in May) as 4 x 156s are used on Liverpool-Wigan workings with at least 1 x 4 car 156 diagram.

The Oxford Road to Lime Street via Warrington services are very frequently 156's, in fact most of them are I would say. This morning I have seen a 142 and a 150 doubled up on one service. Everything else has been a 156.

 

[northwichcat]

Are there no peak doublings on the airport line, its been a long time since I've used the peak Airport service.

Not as far as I'm aware.

Northern's franchise agreement state certain Manchester Airport-Liverpool services must be at least a 156 i.e. they could use 2 x 142s which would be more capacity but they can't use 1 x 142. There's also a mention of certain Liverpool-Victoria services there but some of them are still shown as Liverpool-Victoria-Huddersfield services. Although, this doesn't identify all strengthened services or specify the actual booked traction. In one case it says 156+153 for a service via Wigan Wallgate even though 153s are banned from that line.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...9103/northern-interim-franchise-agreement.pdf (P197 onwards)

 

[deltic08]

Manchester Airport-Liverpool services are currently operated by 2 x 156s and 1 x 150, so 3 x 319s will release 3 x 2 car Sprinters.

Manchester Victoria/Warrington-Liverpool services are operated by a mix of 142s and 150s. Off-peak they are mainly in 2 car formations but there is some doubling up at peak times.

It's Liverpool-Wigan that really needs to switch to release 156s (which won't happen in May) as 4 x 156s are used on Liverpool-Wigan workings with at least 1 x 4 car 156 diagram.

Still one for one then so more 319s need sending north pdq by May to release sufficient 156s.

 

[northwichcat]

Still one for one then so more 319s need sending north pdq by May to release sufficient 156s.

Idea is for 6 x DMUs released by 319s and 2 released by loco-hauled sets on Cumbrian Coast to allow 6 x 2 car DMUs to go to TPE, 1 x 2 car DMU for the Todmorden extension and 1 x 2 car DMU for strengthening on the Bolton corridor. Although, as less than 6 x 156s will be released it's expected some Northern 156 diagrams will become 150 diagrams and the strengthened Bolton diagram could become 2 x 142s instead of a 150.

 

[deltic08]

Idea is for 6 x DMUs released by 319s and 2 released by loco-hauled sets on Cumbrian Coast to allow 6 x 2 car DMUs to go to TPE, 1 x 2 car DMU for the Todmorden extension and 1 x 2 car DMU for strengthening on the Bolton corridor. Although, as less than 6 x 156s will be released it's expected some Northern 156 diagrams will become 150 diagrams and the strengthened Bolton diagram could become 2 x 142s instead of a 150.

Thank you. It will be interesting to see if it happens like this.

 

[childwallblues]

Manchester Airport-Liverpool services are currently operated by 2 x 156s and 1 x 150, so 3 x 319s will release 3 x 2 car Sprinters.

Manchester Victoria/Warrington-Liverpool services are operated by a mix of 142s and 150s. Off-peak they are mainly in 2 car formations but there is some doubling up at peak times.

It's Liverpool-Wigan that really needs to switch to release 156s (which won't happen in May) as 4 x 156s are used on Liverpool-Wigan workings with at least 1 x 4 car 156 diagram.

0718 LIV-MCV and 0838 return s always a 156.

 

[317 forever]

Only Liverpool-Victoria from May (plus Liverpool-Airport which should have happened before May.)



Also it appears splitting up Liverpool-Blackpool from the autumn isn't confirmed. DfT have asked Northern to weigh up the pros and cons of doing it and if the pros outweigh the cons then to submit an application to ORR to make the change, which ORR could still refuse.

Although LIV - MIA should have gone electric in December, it will make sense to introduce electric trains on both services simultaneously in May. This could ease the timetable rather than having MIA services electric and MCV services still diesel.

I just hope that the rebuilding of MCV is complete in time for May!

Northern have put signs up at the stations between Piccadilly and the Airport saying "Bigger, Better, Electric". What a load of nonsense, the line has been electrified for decades, and the current trains are newer, and almost as large as the "new" ones. I can't imagine a 319 having much cause to stop at these places either, except possibly during engineering works, but then it's usually the South TPE that picks up extra the calls.

I have seen this notice at Heaton Chapel too. It is also a bit of an exaggeration with some electrification being late or retaining some diesels intially.

 

[DJH1971]

Although LIV - MIA should have gone electric in December, it will make sense to introduce electric trains on both services simultaneously in May. This could ease the timetable rather than having MIA services electric and MCV services still diesel.

I just hope that the rebuilding of MCV is complete in time for May!



I have seen this notice at Heaton Chapel too. It is also a bit of an exaggeration with some electrification being late or retaining some diesels intially.

And I also sent a message to Northern on Facebook a couple of days ago asking when the electric services will start and they replied 'very soon'.

 

[Bantamzen]

A poster over on WNXX has uploaded a few shots of 316 362 & 363 at Liverpool LS last night:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/dmc1947/sets/72157627331357560

 

[LDECRexile]

One or two recent items here may be of interest:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157648494725811/

 

[martynbristow]

There's an ECS move in realtimetrains for a 319 on Monday morning into Lime Street, but the actual passenger service, the 0616 to the airport, is still pathed as a sprinter.

From them the electrification thread, seems its all tested ok

 

[PHILIPE]

It doesn't mean it would be worked by a Sprinter. It means it would be worked by a Unit able to maintain a speed of 75mph. 319s come into this category.

 

[Class377/5]

It doesn't mean it would be worked by a Sprinter. It means it would be worked by a Unit able to maintain a speed of 75mph. 319s come into this category.

Its unlikely that the path will change from 'sprinter' listing any time soon. Especially during the introduction period. People get too wrapped about the type of path, it only means timing is for that type of unit and nothing to do with what's actually running the service.

 

[samj]

Can't be too long now surely before these are in use?

 

[156441]

Just for your info these are the confirmed runs that will be worked by 319s until the May timetable change which will then see further 319's introduced.

0616,0716,0916,1215,1416,1516,1713,1814 Liverpool-Man Air and 0735,0840,1040,1340,1540,1640,1840,1940 Man Air-Liverpool

 

[po8crg]

It doesn't mean it would be worked by a Sprinter. It means it would be worked by a Unit able to maintain a speed of 75mph. 319s come into this category.

Indeed, since there won't actually be a Sprinter in Lime Street at the time, it will have to be worked by the 319. They won't be able to redo the timings until the timetable change in May, by which time LIV-WBQ could be 319-operated as well.

 

[northwichcat]

Are people in Manchester really getting irate at the prospect of cascaded trains, or is it just interested parties? I've discussed rolling stock cascades with various people on Merseyside who have seemed uniformly enthusiastic about the upcoming class 319 trains especially with the northern refresh. If I asked them if they were bothered about the trains being hand me downs I generally just got a "heard it all before" roll of the eyeballs (although someone did quip that he thought some elsewhere in the region might believe they are too good now for cascaded trains!)

So have you only spoken to rail enthusiasts (who are quite often also electrification enthusiasts) given you say you've asked them about 319s and Joe Public wouldn't know what a 319 was?

The main concern about 319s in the Manchester area is what happens on the Bolton corridor post-electrification, not what is happening on Chat Moss. The concern is over 319s being 4 car and Salford Crescent having had multi-million pound investment to take 6 car 185s just before electrification was announced, which can't easily be changed to allow 8 car 319s.

 

[Camden]

So have you only spoken to rail enthusiasts (who are quite often also electrification enthusiasts) given you say you've asked them about 319s and Joe Public wouldn't know what a 319 was?

The main concern about 319s in the Manchester area is what happens on the Bolton corridor post-electrification, not what is happening on Chat Moss. The concern is over 319s being 4 car and Salford Crescent having had multi-million pound investment to take 6 car 185s just before electrification was announced, which can't easily be changed to allow 8 car 319s.

Class 319 is clearly my knowledge, not theirs for the most part. The people I speak to about these things are people at business events, so a mix of public and private sector individuals, many of which I would class as "members of the public". Yes most people simply know these trains as either "the new trains", or the "second hand trains" (said without pulling a face). I have spoken to a couple of what you might term rail enthusiasts, however they don't tend to express much opinion but talk at length about acceleration, previous use, and so on.

Capacity issues and rolling stock newness are not the same subject, and the subject being talked about was resentment (for want of a better word) about the age of the trains. I haven't found much genuine resentment on Merseyside, and so I asked the question is there really such resentment in Manchester.

For your particular issue, maybe someone can offer up a solution. Isn't it an assumption that class 319 trains will be used on all newly electrified lines, when it may actually be a different class of train anyway?

 

[Class377/5]

So have you only spoken to rail enthusiasts (who are quite often also electrification enthusiasts) given you say you've asked them about 319s and Joe Public wouldn't know what a 319 was?

The main concern about 319s in the Manchester area is what happens on the Bolton corridor post-electrification, not what is happening on Chat Moss. The concern is over 319s being 4 car and Salford Crescent having had multi-million pound investment to take 6 car 185s just before electrification was announced, which can't easily be changed to allow 8 car 319s.

But it can be changed while Northern is still the TOC, which is the key part in getting more capacity on that route.