Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[AM9]

The first D78s to the GOBLIN line then until completion of electrification, 172s to Chiltern and the 170s back to TPE. Problem solved.

Wot no smiley?

 

[childwallblues]

If the 319's mean I am more likely to get a 142 or 150 than a 156 on the Oxford Road to Lime Streets because the 156's are going to FTPE I won't be very impressed. What an amazing improvement that would be.

On paper it should not change as at least six 156s work on MIA/MCV/WGN/WBQ diagrams.

 

[northwichcat]

On paper it should not change as at least six 156s work on MIA/MCV/WGN/WBQ diagrams.

Merseytravel fund the use of 6 x 156s on Liverpool to Wigan/Manchester Airport services. However, at present only 2 are used on Airport services and the other 4 are used on Wigan services. Wigan services won't be switching to electric until September. 2 x 156s will be freed up from the Cumbrian Coast (as mentioned already) so only 4 x 156s are being freed up in time for the May timetable change by a combination of the introduction of 319s and 2 x loco-hauled sets.

 

[thealexweb]

Merseytravel fund the use of 6 x 156s on Liverpool to Wigan/Manchester Airport services. However, at present only 2 are used on Airport services and the other 4 are used on Wigan services. Wigan services won't be switching to electric until September. 2 x 156s will be freed up from the Cumbrian Coast (as mentioned already) so only 4 x 156s are being freed up in time for the May timetable change by a combination of the introduction of 319s and 2 x loco-hauled sets.

September? I thought May was the working plan for Wigan / Preston services.

 

[northwichcat]

September? I thought May was the working plan for Wigan / Preston services.

Only Liverpool-Victoria from May (plus Liverpool-Airport which should have happened before May.)

Refreshed electric trains, providing faster, smoother and greener journeys, will be rolled out on busy commuter routes between Liverpool and Manchester Victoria from May, at a faster rate than previously planned. In addition, refreshed electric trains will be rolled out on the Liverpool to Preston route in the autumn. This will free up existing diesel trains to create additional capacity elsewhere on the north’s network.

Also it appears splitting up Liverpool-Blackpool from the autumn isn't confirmed. DfT have asked Northern to weigh up the pros and cons of doing it and if the pros outweigh the cons then to submit an application to ORR to make the change, which ORR could still refuse.

 

[thealexweb]

Only Liverpool-Victoria from May (plus Liverpool-Airport which should have happened before May.)

We all know that the Wigan branch was running behind, personally I did not realise it was that far behind

 

[martynbristow]

We all know that the Wigan branch was running behind, personally I did not realise it was that far behind

Is the wigan branch far behind and why.
From the spreadsheet it looks near enough done.
Although the viaduct and the merging sections will be a pain it can't take them that long can it :/

 

[childwallblues]

Merseytravel fund the use of 6 x 156s on Liverpool to Wigan/Manchester Airport services. However, at present only 2 are used on Airport services and the other 4 are used on Wigan services. Wigan services won't be switching to electric until September. 2 x 156s will be freed up from the Cumbrian Coast (as mentioned already) so only 4 x 156s are being freed up in time for the May timetable change by a combination of the introduction of 319s and 2 x loco-hauled sets.

But the MIA service is diagrammed for 3 X 156.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

What is diagrammed and what is used aren't always the same thing.

 

[northwichcat]

But the MIA service is diagrammed for 3 X 156.

It was in the past but they switched it so it's currently 2 x 156s and 1 x 150.

When I last travelled on the line I got a 150/1 (filling in for a 156) and the trains on the other diagrams were a 150/2 and a 156.

 

[Whistler40145]

Exactly, what's diagrammed and what turns up are two different things!

 

[northwichcat]

Is the wigan branch far behind and why.
From the spreadsheet it looks near enough done.
Although the viaduct and the merging sections will be a pain it can't take them that long can it :/

It's not just about when the wires are up. Northern need to obtain clearance to use 319s on Wigan services and have enough Wigan crews trained on 319s.

All the original announcement said was 2 x 319 in service on Manchester Airport-Liverpool services by December 2014 and another 10 x 319 in service by December 2015: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/electric-trains-to-boost-rail-services-in-the-north-west

 

[Starmill]

Northern have put signs up at the stations between Piccadilly and the Airport saying "Bigger, Better, Electric". What a load of nonsense, the line has been electrified for decades, and the current trains are newer, and almost as large as the "new" ones. I can't imagine a 319 having much cause to stop at these places either, except possibly during engineering works, but then it's usually the South TPE that picks up extra the calls.

 

[po8crg]

Northern have put signs up at the stations between Piccadilly and the Airport saying "Bigger, Better, Electric". What a load of nonsense, the line has been electrified for decades, and the current trains are newer, and almost as large as the "new" ones. I can't imagine a 319 having much cause to stop at these places either, except possibly during engineering works, but then it's usually the South TPE that picks up extra the calls.

I've also seen the signs at Oxford Road, which certainly will see the new service.

 

[northwichcat]

Northern have put signs up at the stations between Piccadilly and the Airport saying "Bigger, Better, Electric". What a load of nonsense, the line has been electrified for decades, and the current trains are newer, and almost as large as the "new" ones. I can't imagine a 319 having much cause to stop at these places either, except possibly during engineering works, but then it's usually the South TPE that picks up extra the calls.

While a Stakeholder Manager has repeated what we already know about 319s on 'South Manchester' services

In developing the business case for the Northern Triangle electrification programme, the DfT identified that the Class 319 sets which were to be released by the Thameslink programme could possibly provide a value-for-money source of rolling stock. It was noted at this point that in their current state these units could not meet the sectional running times that can be achieved by the 323s so either a new timetable or significant re-engineering, with a traction upgrade, would be required to enable them to match the Class 323 acceleration curve if they were to be considered for use in South Manchester.

Presumably that includes the Airport stoppers?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This current Class 319 matter is most certainly worthy of a new extra dictionary definition of the word "cascade" in the dictionary....perhaps a new one called "319 cascade" perchance?

 

[Boothby97]

Don't suppose if anyone knows if this move will run on Tuesday (Wolverton to Allerton) http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K97249/2015/02/17/advanced

Thanks, Sam

 

[samuelmorris]

This may well be old news, but I heard the fairly distinctive sound of the retrofitted door buzzers they use on the 317/321 demonstrators coming from a 319 at Farringdon this evening. Is this going to be standard fit to every unit or just the ones staying with GTR (for now?) - the unit in question was in the white Thameslink livery...

 

[hassaanhc]

This may well be old news, but I heard the fairly distinctive sound of the retrofitted door buzzers they use on the 317/321 demonstrators coming from a 319 at Farringdon this evening. Is this going to be standard fit to every unit or just the ones staying with GTR (for now?) - the unit in question was in the white Thameslink livery...

Yes they are doing that, 319005, 319006, 319445 and 319446 were the first done. Those are also being fitted to SWT Class 455s, with 5724 being the first there, although it seems to have stalled as of late.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It's not just about when the wires are up. Northern need to obtain clearance to use 319s on Wigan services and have enough Wigan crews trained on 319s.

The mind boggles if a 5-year old plan to introduce 319s to Wigan line services has left any clearance issues on the line.
For most of the last 2 years the Wigan line has been ahead of the Earlestown route in electrification progress.
It might also depend where the rework issues are.
It can only be shortage of stock that prevents early conversion.
And nobody ever mentions Warrington BQ services.

 

[AM9]

The mind boggles if a 5-year old plan to introduce 319s to Wigan line services has left any clearance issues on the line.
For most of the last 2 years the Wigan line has been ahead of the Earlestown route in electrification progress.
It might also depend where the rework issues are.
It can only be shortage of stock that prevents early conversion.
And nobody ever mentions Warrington BQ services.

What sort of clearance issues are there for a line that is being wired for the stock's benefit?
If it's structural, aren't 150s the same 20m long MKIII gauge?
If it's electrical, surely the wiring to Wigan would be compatible from the start.
If it's just not having clearance on paper, would that be easily contained within the programme of works anyway?

 

[northwichcat]

319s are not cleared for Liverpool-Wigan yet - the wires aren't ready so it's simply not possible for them to have been cleared. Hopefully it should just be a case of putting a 319 on the line for a test, finding there's no issues with them running at Sprinter speeds on the line and then doing the necessary paperwork.

There is actually a slight difference between 150s and 319s. 319s carriages are slightly wider (1") and slightly shorter. The slightly shorter shouldn't cause any issues but slightly wider sometimes can (which is why 153s are banned from some routes which 156s are cleared for.)

 

[martynbristow]

319s are not cleared for Liverpool-Wigan yet - the wires aren't ready so it's simply not possible for them to have been cleared. Hopefully it should just be a case of putting a 319 on the line for a test, finding there's no issues with them running at Sprinter speeds on the line and then doing the necessary paperwork.

There is actually a slight difference between 150s and 319s. 319s carriages are slightly wider (1") and slightly shorter. The slightly shorter shouldn't cause any issues but slightly wider sometimes can (which is why 153s are banned from some routes which 156s are cleared for.)

So how are the 319's cleared for Liverpool-Manchester ?

 

[northwichcat]

So how are the 319's cleared for Liverpool-Manchester ?

They can't be properly cleared for the whole route, unless you mean Liverpool-Crewe-Manchester.

 

[martynbristow]

They can't be properly cleared for the whole route, unless you mean Liverpool-Crewe-Manchester.

So both routes are in the same boat then awaiting acceptance

 

[spongsdad]

On the subject of 319 movements, this may be a naive question but I'll ask it anyway. Who would crew the movement of the 319 scheduled to travel from Wolverton to Allerton today? Presumably it has to be manned by people who are signed for that route (or parts of it) and who are also passed to drive the 319. Who would meet BOTH requirements at this time?

 

[user15681]

On the subject of 319 movements, this may be a naive question but I'll ask it anyway. Who would crew the movement of the 319 scheduled to travel from Wolverton to Allerton today? Presumably it has to be manned by people who are signed for that route (or parts of it) and who are also passed to drive the 319. Who would meet BOTH requirements at this time?

Pretty sure it's GBRf.

 

[Class377/5]

On the subject of 319 movements, this may be a naive question but I'll ask it anyway. Who would crew the movement of the 319 scheduled to travel from Wolverton to Allerton today? Presumably it has to be manned by people who are signed for that route (or parts of it) and who are also passed to drive the 319. Who would meet BOTH requirements at this time?

One of the freight companies, I think GBrF, do the moves between Bedford and Wolverton/Allerton/Hornsey so guess them.

 

[po8crg]

On the subject of 319 movements, this may be a naive question but I'll ask it anyway. Who would crew the movement of the 319 scheduled to travel from Wolverton to Allerton today? Presumably it has to be manned by people who are signed for that route (or parts of it) and who are also passed to drive the 319. Who would meet BOTH requirements at this time?

They could use a conductor if needed.

 

[spongsdad]

One of the freight companies, I think GBrF, do the moves between Bedford and Wolverton/Allerton/Hornsey so guess them.

Ah! That sounds reasonable. I'll have to do more lateral thinking.