Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[deltic08]

To be fair I mainly choose an airline seat, but the table seats are slightly better spaced than the 158 ones. Though there isn't a lot in it. I expect coincidence.

I am 6' 4" and very long in the leg (35" inside leg) so I do notice these things!

Anyway we are heading off topic from 319s.

Neil

When I read 6'4" I couldn't stop laughing. Certainly not vertically challenged

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I am only 5'7" with a 27" inside leg....Eric Morecambe would have a comment about "short fat hairy legs" to aim in the direction of both Ernie Wise and I...

 

[deltic08]

I am only 5'7" with a 27" inside leg....Eric Morecambe would have a comment about "short fat hairy legs" to aim in the direction of both Ernie Wise and I...

I am only two inches longer in the leg. Do you find 185s roomy?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Not sure what to make of this, but was speaking to a conductor on a Northern service today and they have been told that the 319's are now going to based at Springs Branch, Wigan instead of Allerton.

This surely can't be right. :?

NR bought the derelict Allerton off DBS a few years ago - and if you pardon the pun - have spent a shed load of money in bringing it up to standard.

This will be the new home (Heimat in German) of the 319's and other electrics. There might be the odd unit stabled outwith - but mtc will be Allerton.

(the 319's are quite robust anyway - they all have spent the last week on marine duties through the floods at Farringdon)

 

[childwallblues]

There was a path on Real Time Trains today for a Wolverton to Allerton move arriving at 1903.
Possibly 319363 returning after refurbishment?

 

[user15681]

There was a path on Real Time Trains today for a Wolverton to Allerton move arriving at 1903.
Possibly 319363 returning after refurbishment?

It was indeed 319363 moving north. Looks to have terminated at Crewe though.

 

[fowler9]

Not sure where we are up to with the discussion of Springs Branch being used instead of Allerton but I think it is unlikely. I pop in to the Palatine pub in Garston on a fairly regular basis and there is a fella staying there from out of town working on the upgrades to Allerton. He wouldn't still be doing what he is doing if Allerton wasn't going to be used.

 

[childwallblues]

Refurbished 319363 left Wolverton for Allerton yesterday but the trip was terminated at Crewe due to the OHLE being isolated at Allerton until Sunday morning. The unit is currently in Platform 10.

 

[8A Rail]

Not sure where we are up to with the discussion of Springs Branch being used instead of Allerton but I think it is unlikely. I pop in to the Palatine pub in Garston on a fairly regular basis and there is a fella staying there from out of town working on the upgrades to Allerton. He wouldn't still be doing what he is doing if Allerton wasn't going to be used.

Allerton was upgraded etc and will be the base for the Class 319 fleet with the majority of the DMU's (those that are kepted) being outsourced elsewhere with the exception of one or two for the local (CLC) service. This info was provided willingly at a depot visit.

As for Wigan Springs Branch, yes there are rumours flying about but it is more than likely that it has been returned to the ownership of Network Rail as part of the UK Plan to return yards, sidings, other locations to NR that was communicated to the wider audience some time ago.

 

[fowler9]

Allerton was upgraded etc and will be the base for the Class 319 fleet with the majority of the DMU's (those that are kepted) being outsourced elsewhere with the exception of one or two for the local (CLC) service. This info was provided willingly at a depot visit.

As for Wigan Springs Branch, yes there are rumours flying about but it is more than likely that it has been returned to the ownership of Network Rail as part of the UK Plan to return yards, sidings, other locations to NR that was communicated to the wider audience some time ago.

Cheers mate.

 

[samj]

Am planning a trip up north over the weekend 20/21 Feb purely for 319s. Is it worth booking or shall I hold on?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Am planning a trip up north over the weekend 20/21 Feb purely for 319s. Is it worth booking or shall I hold on?

I would wait a while if I were you. Every Sunday in Feb has had late notice engineering work and bus replacements put in place to allow work on the wires to go ahead.

 

[8A Rail]

Am planning a trip up north over the weekend 20/21 Feb purely for 319s. Is it worth booking or shall I hold on?

Dont bother coming, you will be disappointed. Leave it until later in the year. If you wish to keep track of things, see this thread:- http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=60290&page=252

 

[Bevan Price]

Am planning a trip up north over the weekend 20/21 Feb purely for 319s. Is it worth booking or shall I hold on?

Anyone planning trips to/from the southern end of WCML on 14/14 and 20/21 Feb. is advised to forget it.

http://www.virgintrains.co.uk/updates/route-improvements/spanner/


http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/71618.aspx

 

[Springs Branch]

Not sure what to make of this, but was speaking to a conductor on a Northern service today and they have been told that the 319's are now going to based at Springs Branch, Wigan instead of Allerton.
This surely can't be right. :?

It's hard to envisage that 319s will move from Allerton to Springs Branch as a permanent full-service depot.
But it does prompt a question about future needs for storage of EMUs in the Wigan area.

At the moment, at the start and end of service, some of the DMUs operating the Wigan/Liverpool service shunt between Wigan NW and Wigan Carriage Sidings (on the Southport line just beyond the WCML overbridge west of Wallgate). These moves will not be possible for EMUs.

With the proposed Lostock Jct - Wigan electrification, it seems limited clearance at the bridge beneath Wallgate (the street, not the station) will prevent extension of OHLE into Wallgate station and on to the carriage sidings.
This means somewhere else will need to be found in Wigan to stable EMUs after the pm peak or overnight, if a lot of ECS running to & from Allerton is to be avoided.

Once the Liverpool electric trains start this year, it's conceivable a couple of EMUs could be stabled overnight in the the two bays (2 & 3) at Wigan NW, or even in Platform 6. But when the service from Manchester via Bolton is electrified, the bay platforms may well be needed for the Manchester/Wigan trains. And there will then be a few more EMUs off the Manchester service also needing overnight stabling (unless more ECS back to depots are to run).

Maybe the conductor's comment relates to a plan to introduce overnight stabling for Class 319s at Springs Branch?

Although there is very little existing OHLE in the remains of the yard at Springs Branch, IIRC there is enough vacant land to build a modest secure storage compound adjacent to the WCML, with easy access to & from Wigan NW via the electrified Goods Lines without hindering the main lines.
And if EMUs are being stabled there, why not relocate the remaining Southport & Kirkby DMUs to Springs Branch too and close the carriage sidings west of Wallgate?
(All speculation of course - but you may guess from my username that I'm someone happy to see renewed use of the depot at Springs Branch!)

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Shall we say that certain individuals are really waiting for the triumphal ribbon cutting and first electric train in passenger service moment !

Shame it has been so long getting there ....it will come !

 

[Viscount702]

And you will have to wait for the certain individuals to cut the ribbon even though the wires may have been ready for weeks. It would have happened that way anyway but even more important now with an election coming.

 

[Starmill]

As for IC layout for TPE I doubt it, 1/4 3/4 or 1/3 2/3 are the only likely door layouts - do you remember how slow loading and unloading were in the 158 days? I'd expect a Desiro City or Aventra with a layout similar to the Class 350/1, 3 or 4 to be used.

So why do you believe a pair of 156s is a "genuine improvement" for Manchester Airport to Blackpool North? Either the layout is appropriate and won't cause delays due to excessive dwell time, or it's not really appropriate and will cause delays. Which is it?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Personally I think Northern should have introduced car parking charges rather than their ill-conceived, badly-implemented evening peak restrictions.

I have no issues with evening peak restrictions in and of themselves, but to have done it properly (e.g. only on the way out of big cities in the peak) would have brought in less money that would have to come from somewhere.

Neil

Ooh, I don't think we have ever been in such profound agreement before, Neil!

 

[edwin_m]

Maybe the conductor's comment relates to a plan to introduce overnight stabling for Class 319s at Springs Branch?

That strikes me as a very senbsible interpretation. I doubt there is enough electrified stabling in the north-west to hold the number of 319s likely to arrive there, so something will have to be done somewhere. The Guide Bridge area was also being talked about but I'm not sure if it still is (and no reason not to do both).

 

[Bletchleyite]

So why do you believe a pair of 156s is a "genuine improvement" for Manchester Airport to Blackpool North? Either the layout is appropriate and won't cause delays due to excessive dwell time, or it's not really appropriate and will cause delays. Which is it?

The end-doored layout is sub-optimal, but I'd rather have more capacity with an end-doored layout (4.156) than less capacity with an appropriate door layout (3.185). I expect the door layout may be one reason for the timetable having been padded.

Are the 156s perfect? Clearly not; 6.185 on all services would be better. But there aren't enough of them, and 4.156 is better than 3.185.

But anyway this has nowt to do with 319s

Ooh, I don't think we have ever been in such profound agreement before, Neil!

Neil

 

[Whistler40145]

We're only having 156s as the 158s are sponsored for use in Yorkshire.

It's that or stick 142s on the Blackpool North to Manchester Airport service!

 

[Class377/5]

So why do you believe a pair of 156s is a "genuine improvement" for Manchester Airport to Blackpool North? Either the layout is appropriate and won't cause delays due to excessive dwell time, or it's not really appropriate and will cause delays.

Genuine improvement would be an improvement of either quality of service or capacity so increase in the number of seats would be classed by many as a genuine improvement. Despite the drop in quality of the service and many people opinions on there they differ.

 

[Bevan Price]

It's hard to envisage that 319s will move from Allerton to Springs Branch as a permanent full-service depot.
But it does prompt a question about future needs for storage of EMUs in the Wigan area.

At the moment, at the start and end of service, some of the DMUs operating the Wigan/Liverpool service shunt between Wigan NW and Wigan Carriage Sidings (on the Southport line just beyond the WCML overbridge west of Wallgate). These moves will not be possible for EMUs.

With the proposed Lostock Jct - Wigan electrification, it seems limited clearance at the bridge beneath Wallgate (the street, not the station) will prevent extension of OHLE into Wallgate station and on to the carriage sidings.
This means somewhere else will need to be found in Wigan to stable EMUs after the pm peak or overnight, if a lot of ECS running to & from Allerton is to be avoided.

Once the Liverpool electric trains start this year, it's conceivable a couple of EMUs could be stabled overnight in the the two bays (2 & 3) at Wigan NW, or even in Platform 6. But when the service from Manchester via Bolton is electrified, the bay platforms may well be needed for the Manchester/Wigan trains. And there will then be a few more EMUs off the Manchester service also needing overnight stabling (unless more ECS back to depots are to run).

Could there be some future plan to wire from MIles Platting to Newton Heath depot ? It is only a mile or so, and might be cheaper than building a new facility at Springs Branch.

 

[Whistler40145]

Sounds like a very sensible idea to me.

 

[snowball]

Could there be some future plan to wire from MIles Platting to Newton Heath depot ? It is only a mile or so, and might be cheaper than building a new facility at Springs Branch.

Parsons Brinkerhoff's design contract for Manchester-Stalybridge includes a "pre-feasibility" study for this section.

http://www.europeanrailwayreview.co...-west-electrification-programme/#.VM6hhSyqkY0

The newish edition of the Trackmaps map, which shows Manchester-Stalybridge with purple shading indicating electrification by 2016, shows MP-NH with purple and white striped shading.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Could there be some future plan to wire from MIles Platting to Newton Heath depot ? It is only a mile or so, and might be cheaper than building a new facility at Springs Branch.

Parsons Brinkerhoff's design contract for Manchester-Stalybridge includes a "pre-feasibility" study for this section.

Before anyone signs off wiring Miles Platting-Newton Heath, plus electrifying the depot, they will want to see the rolling stock strategy for Northern for the long franchise.
Do they need another EMU depot as well as Longsight and Allerton?
Where are services via Preston going to be based?
How many EMUs will eventually be deployed in the north?
After TP wiring it will only be 40 miles between EMU depots in Manchester and Leeds, with plenty of scope for economies of scale in fleet deployment and management.
These are yet more questions about the future that "the north" seems unable to answer. I hope they are asked in the ITT.
In "the south" there would be one big home depot and a few outstations, quite possibly run by the manufacturers (as Siemens do at Ardwick).
You would expect the same level of planning to be going on for Northern's EMUs.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Before anyone signs off wiring Miles Platting-Newton Heath, plus electrifying the depot, they will want to see the rolling stock strategy for Northern for the long franchise. Do they need another EMU depot as well as Longsight and Allerton?

Where are services via Preston going to be based? How many EMUs will eventually be deployed in the north? After TP wiring it will only be 40 miles between EMU depots in Manchester and Leeds, with plenty of scope for economies of scale in fleet deployment and management. These are yet more questions about the future that "the north" seems unable to answer. I hope they are asked in the ITT.

As a matter of interest, what are the existing unit handling capacities at both Longsight and at Newton Heath? Does Longsight's position give it any advantage with the services that use the WCML and does it have enough capacity to carry out the maintenance requirements of both DMU and EMU of the region whilst DMU are still based in Manchester, which looks to be for many years to come? There surely is a need for Newton Heath to be retained in this interim period and lines that carry quite an amount of rail traffic such as the Calder Valley line are not seemingly to be electrified in the foreseeable future.

Once the Ordsall Chord is completed, there will be another linkage between these two depots.

 

[northwichcat]

We're only having 156s as the 158s are sponsored for use in Yorkshire.

It's that or stick 142s on the Blackpool North to Manchester Airport service!

Not entirely true. There are 10 x 158s which are MetroTrain units but the majority are not.

6 of the 158s in the Northern fleet were secured by Merseytravel but Northern convinced them for fleet consistency it would be better if they were used in Yorkshire with 156s being cascaded across the Pennines.

Another 6 of the 158s were secured using Yorkshire Forward funding but that has since expired.

The 8 centre cars were secured primarily for Blackpool/Manchester Victoria to Yorkshire services and were inserted in to the ex-FNW 158s which used to be used on North West routes.

 

[Brian Aylott]

As a matter of interest, what are the existing unit handling capacities at both Longsight and at Newton Heath? Does Longsight's position give it any advantage with the services that use the WCML and does it have enough capacity to carry out the maintenance requirements of both DMU and EMU of the region whilst DMU are still based in Manchester, which looks to be for many years to come? There surely is a need for Newton Heath to be retained in this interim period and lines that carry quite an amount of rail traffic such as the Calder Valley line are not seemingly to be electrified in the foreseeable future.

Once the Ordsall Chord is completed, there will be another linkage between these two depots.

Longsight is not a Northern Depot
Brian

 

[Topgun333]

Longsight is not a Northern Depot
Brian

Northern 323s are serviced at Longsight by Alstom staff though. I visited the depot recently.