Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[Emblematic]

Well I think 200 new diesel carriages before the end of 2012 for the North and South West for additional capacity would have been of more benefit to passengers in both areas. But DfT wanted to find somewhere to send your old 319s.

Not the DfT this time - there's no appetite to invest in diesel when there's a committed electrification programme in place, which will likely result in surplus diesel units within the next few years. Unless legislation changes force the retirement of more existing units than currently anticipated, I don't expect any DMU orders for at least a decade. Meanwhile over 2400 new electric carriages are now on order, with more to come - all for capacity growth and new electric services, not for replacing old electric stock.

 

[ianhr]

As a Northern employee who will no doubt be working these trains once they are put in service, I really couldnt give a damn what they look like or how old they are.....the fact that we are getting some extra carriages to try and accomadate passenenger growth is very welcome. I m certain that more passengers will appreciate actually getting a seat !!

I could not agree more! If new trains were going to be specified from the start the NW electrification would have cost more and never have been authorised by the Government. I really cannot believe there are ANY ordinary passengers from Lime Street to/from Manchester Vic/St.Helen's/Wigan etc who are going to COMPLAIN because they get a seat on a 319 rather than having to STAND on a PACER!

btw I do not share the affection that some people on here have for the 156s either. 319s have been serving Gatwick and Luton Airports for years, and so they will be quite adequate for traffic to MIA, a shorter journey anyway and making better use of the underutilised electrification between Oxford Rd and MIA. The 156s could go to the new E.Lancs via Todmorden route where they will be appreciated.

 

[northwichcat]

Not the DfT this time - there's no appetite to invest in diesel when there's a committed electrification programme in place, which will likely result in surplus diesel units within the next few years. Unless legislation changes force the retirement of more existing units than currently anticipated, I don't expect any DMU orders for at least a decade. Meanwhile over 2400 new electric carriages are now on order, with more to come - all for capacity growth and new electric services, not for replacing old electric stock.

It was the Labour DfT who in around 2010 decided to withdraw proposals for new DMUs and instead to electrify certain routes and cascade the surplus to requirements 319s to those routes. The Coalition government who took over put all electrification plans and new train orders under review, which delayed adding much needed capacity to the network. So what was originally 200 extra carriages by December 2012 is 40 extra carriages to date as so we're 160 short and 18 months further on in time.

It's only in the past couple of years when ATOC produced a document jointly with other parties saying no new DMUs would be required until at least the end of 2019.
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I could not agree more! If new trains were going to be specified from the start the NW electrification would have cost more and never have been authorised by the Government. I really cannot believe there are ANY ordinary passengers from Lime Street to/from Manchester Vic/St.Helen's/Wigan etc who are going to COMPLAIN because they get a seat on a 319 rather than having to STAND on a PACER!

btw I do not share the affection that some people on here have for the 156s either. 319s have been serving Gatwick and Luton Airports for years, and so they will be quite adequate for traffic to MIA, a shorter journey anyway and making better use of the underutilised electrification between Oxford Rd and MIA. The 156s could go to the new E.Lancs via Todmorden route where they will be appreciated.

The problem with the 4 car 319s is it means some services which don't need extra capacity are going to get extra capacity*, simply because they are on electrified lines. Other services are already 4 car Sprinters so the 319s will not be any extra capacity.

* We already see such examples going through Stockport, a packed 2 car train on a Buxton/Chester service while a spacious 323 with not enough passengers to fill a 153 goes through on an Alderley Edge service.

December 2014 is set to see one additional strengthened diagram on the Bolton corridor and a DMU to be utilised to extend Todmorden services to Blackburn. It doesn't mean that 156s released won't replace 142s, with the 142s providing the additional strengthened diagram on the Bolton corridor and extending the Todmorden services.

 

[Moonshot]

It was the Labour DfT who in around 2010 decided to withdraw proposals for new DMUs and instead to electrify certain routes and cascade the surplus to requirements 319s to those routes. The Coalition government who took over put all electrification plans and new train orders under review, which delayed adding much needed capacity to the network. So what was originally 200 extra carriages by December 2012 is 40 extra carriages to date as so we're 160 short and 18 months further on in time.

It's only in the past couple of years when ATOC produced a document jointly with other parties saying no new DMUs would be required until at least the end of 2019.
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The problem with the 4 car 319s is it means some services which don't need extra capacity are going to get extra capacity*, simply because they are on electrified lines. Other services are already 4 car Sprinters so the 319s will not be any extra capacity.

* We already see such examples going through Stockport, a packed 2 car train on a Buxton/Chester service while a spacious 323 with not enough passengers to fill a 153 goes through on an Alderley Edge service.

December 2014 is set to see one additional strengthened diagram on the Bolton corridor and a DMU to be utilised to extend Todmorden services to Blackburn. It doesn't mean that 156s released won't replace 142s, with the 142s providing the additional strengthened diagram on the Bolton corridor and extending the Todmorden services.

There is just no pleasing you is there ? But of course it doesnt matter.....what really matters is the fact that extra capacity is being added to the Northern Network , both in the form of extra trains and also infrastructure enhancement. Which will be very welcome by the 250000 passengers a day that Northern carry.

 

[ianhr]

The problem with the 4 car 319s is it means some services which don't need extra capacity are going to get extra capacity*, simply because they are on electrified lines. Other services are already 4 car Sprinters so the 319s will not be any extra capacity.

* We already see such examples going through Stockport, a packed 2 car train on a Buxton/Chester service while a spacious 323 with not enough passengers to fill a 153 goes through on an Alderley Edge service.

December 2014 is set to see one additional strengthened diagram on the Bolton corridor and a DMU to be utilised to extend Todmorden services to Blackburn. It doesn't mean that 156s released won't replace 142s, with the 142s providing the additional strengthened diagram on the Bolton corridor and extending the Todmorden services.

Yes it is a pity that we do not have more flexibility within the AC electric EMU fleet. The Lime Street-Wigan/Man Vic trains are often overcrowded at present (at least when I have tried to use them) but the LPL-MIA DMUs often seem to have spare seats. I agree that the Alderley Edge via Stockport & via Styal trains are often lightly loaded compared with Buxton and Chester trains . Unfortunately it seems that it will not be possible to combine the 3-car 323 fleet with the 4-car 319 fleet diagrams to get the best match between demand and seating AND unfortunately we have no 2-car AC EMUs. There are similar problems in Yorks where there is huge over capacity when running 4-car 333s on the Leeds-Bradford FS and Bradford FS-Ilkley diagrams whereas Leeds-Skipton and Leeds-Ilkley have enough demand for 6-car sets at peak periods.

 

[northwichcat]

There is just no pleasing you is there ? But of course it doesnt matter.....what really matters is the fact that extra capacity is being added to the Northern Network , both in the form of extra trains and also infrastructure enhancement. Which will be very welcome by the 250000 passengers a day that Northern carry.

What a load of bull****. What matters is strengthening the services which are most overcrowded, not coming up with misleading statistics about number of carriages/seats provided like DfT do all the time.

Network Rail have flagged problems with 4 car EMUs being cascaded to the Bolton corridor not being configurable to the required formations, so it's something a major official organisation has flagged as a problem.

 

[ianhr]

What a load of bull****. What matters is strengthening the services which are most overcrowded, not coming up with misleading statistics about number of carriages/seats provided like DfT do all the time.

Network Rail have flagged problems with 4 car EMUs being cascaded to the Bolton corridor not being configurable to the required formations, so it's something a major official organisation has flagged as a problem.

Yes but we are faced with the problem of trying to upgrade an industry which is suffering from years of DELIBERATELY ENGINEERED UNDER CAPACITY and INFLEXIBILITY. Late BR stripped out every millimetre of redundancy in track and signalling that they could identify and shortened platforms, and the Government encouraged them to do so. Rolling stock policy also went down the route of 'one size fits all' multiple unit trains of 2-car DMU and 4-car EMU which along with a reduction in the number of train builders has resulted in operators only being able to acquire what the train manufacturers want to sell (or what DfT will finance, which leads to more or less the same outcome).

It is impossible to satisfy every need at once and very difficult to fine tune anything! After years of anti-rail Governments I am pleased to see anything positive happening at all.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What a load of bull****. What matters is strengthening the services which are most overcrowded, not coming up with misleading statistics about number of carriages/seats provided like DfT do all the time.

Network Rail have flagged problems with 4 car EMUs being cascaded to the Bolton corridor not being configurable to the required formations, so it's something a major official organisation has flagged as a problem.

How many 6-car Northern services are there on the Bolton route?
If 8-cars won't fit, isn't the answer to run 8-car trains to the principal stations and 4-car to the rest? Or a higher frequency of 4-car trains?
My perception is that there are very few doubled up Northern trains, and I would have thought that a consistent 4-car EMU service through Bolton will probably give you more seats that the current odd mix of 2/4-car DMUs.
A whole lot of science needs to go into train planning in the north as electrification rolls out.
Trying to graft new trains onto the old timetable patterns will end in a brick wall at some point.

 

[tbtc]

1. A downgrade never goes down well with passengers. It doesn't matter if the current type of train is better than used on a similar service in another part of the country, that sort of an excuse for a downgrade isn't accepted by passengers

Did the passenger numbers on the Airedale/ Wharfdale lines go down when younger Pacers were replaced by 1960s slam door 308s?

Or did passenger numbers go up because the older EMUs were more reliable and most passengers aren't snobs about "London cast offs"?

350s work well on WCML stopping services, they manage to do the services which call at Hartford and Winsford on a very busy double track section of the WCML. 319s are unproven on WCML stopping services

How are the 319s supposed to prove themselves on WCML stopping services I wonder, I guess they could experiment by using them on the MML for 25+ years to see if they can cope with 100mph running and various stopping patterns

I agree with ExRes - the 319s have had an intensive life working on Thameslink, combining the long periods of fast running with the frequent stop/start nature of the Thameslink "core" - slotting between InterCity services on the MML, running "all stop" services, being reliable enough to cope with the intensive service patterns on the BML through East Croydon...

...maybe you are going to tell me that there's something much more challenging about the WCML and the Liverpool/ Manchester area, but I think that 319s are proven workhorses.

When all is said and done, once the decision to transfer those chosen members of the Class 319 fleet to Northern Rail, could then immediate action not have been taken to place these units into a rolling programme of full refurbishment on a reasonably staggered time schedule so as not to unduly cause service availability problems. Was not a similar co-ordinated rolling programme carried out on the Northern Rail Class 323 units ?

No, because there aren't enough units to go round as it is. The sooner they go into service the sooner they can start displacing DMUs to where they are needed. Now what was it people keep saying about the Todmorden curve?

I was not aware that the Class 319 units were currently scheduled to be run over the Todmorden chord.

I agree with edwin_m - the delays to Thameslink have meant that the 319s couldn't come north sooner - the alternative would have been what - to delay the electrification around Manchester so that the wires only went up when the EMUs were available?

Either we need these EMUs urgently, or we postpone the electrification so that they all get a long period of refurbishment. People are certainly quick enough to complain when the infrastructure is ready but the trains aren't.

Well I think 200 new diesel carriages before the end of 2012 for the North and South West for additional capacity would have been of more benefit to passengers in both areas. But DfT wanted to find somewhere to send your old 319s.

It was the Labour DfT who in around 2010 decided to withdraw proposals for new DMUs and instead to electrify certain routes and cascade the surplus to requirements 319s to those routes. The Coalition government who took over put all electrification plans and new train orders under review, which delayed adding much needed capacity to the network. So what was originally 200 extra carriages by December 2012 is 40 extra carriages to date as so we're 160 short and 18 months further on in time

The "200 carriages" was one proposal - we've seen many proposals - most of them never happened. But the "200 carriages" (which wouldn't necessarily have been brand new and wouldn't necessarily have been a net increase of 200) have gained mythical status.

The problem with the 4 car 319s is it means some services which don't need extra capacity are going to get extra capacity*, simply because they are on electrified lines. Other services are already 4 car Sprinters so the 319s will not be any extra capacity.

* We already see such examples going through Stockport, a packed 2 car train on a Buxton/Chester service while a spacious 323 with not enough passengers to fill a 153 goes through on an Alderley Edge service

Surely it's good news that these 319s will free up lots of 156s for enhanced capacity on Buxton services then?

What a load of bull****. What matters is strengthening the services which are most overcrowded, not coming up with misleading statistics about number of carriages/seats provided like DfT do all the time.

Network Rail have flagged problems with 4 car EMUs being cascaded to the Bolton corridor not being configurable to the required formations, so it's something a major official organisation has flagged as a problem.

Once CP5 electrification is complete, we could see 7/8ths of the services through Bolton moving to EMU operation:

Manchester - Bolton - Preston (and beyond) x4
Manchester - Bolton - Wigan (with all Southport services running via Atherton) x3
...leaving only the hourly Blackburn/ Clitheroe service

...that'd mean capacity through Bolton of (7x4=) 28 EMU carriages per hour, plus the DMU for Clitheroe - do you not reckon that this would cope with capacity?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I could not agree more! If new trains were going to be specified from the start the NW electrification would have cost more and never have been authorised by the Government.

.....as the Government would also never had authorised the costs for any new trains for other areas that were due to have lines electrified, keeping a level playing field all around the country.

Is this the point that you are making ?

 

[The Planner]

Late BR stripped out every millimetre of redundancy in track .

NR still do that now, nothing new there.

 

[northwichcat]

Did the passenger numbers on the Airedale/ Wharfdale lines go down when younger Pacers were replaced by 1960s slam door 308s?

Or did passenger numbers go up because the older EMUs were more reliable and most passengers aren't snobs about "London cast offs"?

Well actually passenger numbers dropped off on most lines in the North in the late 1990s as both FNW and ATN staff were frequently involved in industrial disputes and people who didn't have to use the train stopped doing so.

I'm not sure what relevance 308s in West Yorks has to anything. Passenger numbers grew after new 333s were introduced but the same thing happened in the FNW area when 175s replaced slam-door stock, so passenger growth isn't just where EMUs have appeared.

...maybe you are going to tell me that there's something much more challenging about the WCML and the Liverpool/ Manchester area, but I think that 319s are proven workhorses.

Maybe you should ask Porterbrook about what results their computer simulations gave them. Porterbrook decided expensive modifications may be required if 319s are to be used on certain unspecified routes. They obviously think there's a risk future operators will want consistent EMU fleets not including 319s unless they do something.

The "200 carriages" was one proposal - we've seen many proposals - most of them never happened. But the "200 carriages" (which wouldn't necessarily have been brand new and wouldn't necessarily have been a net increase of 200) have gained mythical status.

Where would 200 cascaded DMU carriages have come from, remembering the LO and LM 150s had been accounted for already at this stage. The only option would have been new DMUs and an ITT was issued for such, perhaps surprisingly it suggested 10 new trains for TPE, 12 for FGW and the rest for Northern, rather than one operator having a consistent fleet of all the new DMUs.

Once CP5 electrification is complete, we could see 7/8ths of the services through Bolton moving to EMU operation:

Manchester - Bolton - Preston (and beyond) x4
Manchester - Bolton - Wigan (with all Southport services running via Atherton) x3
...leaving only the hourly Blackburn/ Clitheroe service

...that'd mean capacity through Bolton of (7x4=) 28 EMU carriages per hour, plus the DMU for Clitheroe - do you not reckon that this would cope with capacity?

Who says that will be the service pattern? I've not heard anyone except a few enthusiasts including yourself say that all Southport services will be routed via Atherton . Also who says they'll be 3tph between Bolton and Wigan rather than the current 2tph or that they'll be 4tph between Bolton and Preston rather than the current 3tph. Will there be enough paths through Salford for that level of increase in services? If you've overestimated the current number of services then that's 8 carriages less per hour.

Also what about what Network Rail said about needing to source units suitable for 6 car EMU operation or continuing to use 3 car DMUs on the Bolton corridor post-electrification so that 6 car formations can remain?

Or what the Northern/TPE consulation proposes about having mainly Windermere/Barrow-Lancaster/Preston services but occasional through services?

I think people who expect to see every possible service revision to maximise use of OHEs will be disappointed when the specification of the next Northern and TPE services are published. I expect it'll be a compromise whereby non-electrified branches get a reduction in through trains rather than losing all their through trains.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Once FCC are able to release the 319's, just refurbish them, repaint them so that they look nice and shiney and the average commuter will think they're getting a new train.

I really can't see what all the fuss is about...

 

[deltic08]

Pendolinos, with the old 90s/Mk3s going to Liverpool St-Norwich.
Other Mk3s ended up with Chiltern and the HST operators.

This is hardly a comparison as you are comparing Intercity routes not local commuter areas. But as you mentioned it, Liverpool St-Norwich was newer stock replacing older stock and the Mark 3s did get a complete nut and bolt refurb before introduction on the route. This is NOT happening with the 319s before cascading.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Either we need these EMUs urgently, or we postpone the electrification so that they all get a long period of refurbishment. People are certainly quick enough to complain when the infrastructure is ready but the trains aren't.

Did you actually read what I said in my posting when I also drew comparison with the internal updating works on the Northern Rail Class 323 units. A couple of Class 319 units being done at a time is most certainly not the same as a total class withdrawal. I understood that the Class 319 units were only being released on a drip-feed basis to Northern Rail, not as a wholesale batch transfer.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Did you actually read what I said in my posting when I also drew comparison with the internal updating works on the Northern Rail Class 323 units. A couple of Class 319 units being done at a time is most certainly not the same as a total class withdrawal. I understood that the Class 319 units were only being released on a drip-feed basis to Northern Rail, not as a wholesale batch transfer.

Paul, to get a refurbishment programme on the 319s going, you need a TOC that knows what it wants/can afford, and a firm idea of how many units they are having done and when.
Plus an acceptable quote from Porterbrook, against a lease agreement for x years to pay for it.
How can Northern possibly answer any of these questions before 2016?

It's also quite likely there are other TOCs interested in 319s (eg FGW), with maybe different requirements/numbers, all of which affect the fleet upgrade options.
There isn't a fat controller somewhere who is going to decide all this.
It will emerge in the course of the specification/bidding for the new Northern franchise next year.

 

[Starmill]

As a Northern employee who will no doubt be working these trains once they are put in service, I really couldnt give a damn what they look like or how old they are...

Nothing new there then!

 

[talltim]

I wonder if some London & South East commuters in the 1980s complained about the north getting brand new Sprinters and Super-Sprinters.

I didn't, I was was quite happy with my new 317s and then a few years later new 319s. If I hadn't moved north, I could be happy with my new 377s and be looking forward to my new 700s

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Paul, to get a refurbishment programme on the 319s going, you need a TOC that knows what it wants/can afford, and a firm idea of how many units they are having done and when. Plus an acceptable quote from Porterbrook, against a lease agreement for x years to pay for it.

How can Northern possibly answer any of these questions before 2016?

My posting only concerned the actual small number of the Class 319 units that it had already been agreed that were to be sent to Northern Rail in the very first instance.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Did the passenger numbers on the Airedale/ Wharfdale lines go down when younger Pacers were replaced by 1960s slam door 308s?

Passenger numbers remained constant when the 308s replaced the Pacers.

It was when the 333s arrived that passenger numbers shot up, to the extent that the trains had to be extended from the original three carriages to four.

Not that that stops the DfT, every year or three, trying to take the additional centre carriage away for Heathrow Express. IIRC they're currently paid for by SYPTE to make sure the 321s and 322s remain on the Doncaster route.

 

[Starmill]

Once FCC are able to release the 319's, just refurbish them, repaint them so that they look nice and shiney and the average commuter will think they're getting a new train.

I really can't see what all the fuss is about...

The 'fuss' is about the fact that your highly sensible suggestion is exactly what is not going to happen!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

My posting only concerned the actual small number of the Class 319 units that it had already been agreed that were to be sent to Northern Rail in the very first instance.

Well nobody is going to do more than cosmetic changes to a fleet size of 14 units that are already "goers", over the 2 years before a bigger fleet arrives.
New seat covers and a bit of paint is about all that will happen, and that is only for marketing purposes rather than an effort to "upgrade" anything for the passengers.
Once a few have been prized away from FCC maybe Northern and Porterbrook will be able to plan something better for the longer term.

 

[Class377/5]

Well nobody is going to do more than cosmetic changes to a fleet size of 14 units that are already "goers", over the 2 years before a bigger fleet arrives.
New seat covers and a bit of paint is about all that will happen, and that is only for marketing purposes rather than an effort to "upgrade" anything for the passengers.
Once a few have been prized away from FCC maybe Northern and Porterbrook will be able to plan something better for the longer term.

Northern have already said they will get a minor make over and the DfT has said its up to the next franchise to do anything else. Note these units received their last refurbishment around five years go, have had a deep clean already in the last six months and are the best of the fleet with Northern have visited and they picked the units they are getting.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Northern have already said they will get a minor make over and the DfT has said its up to the next franchise to do anything else. Note these units received their last refurbishment around five years go, have had a deep clean already in the last six months and are the best of the fleet with Northern have visited and they picked the units they are getting.

Have we given full information as to what this "minor" make-over involves..?

One could have gone to an East German car dealership and chose the best of the Trabants they had in stock...but at the end of the day, they would still be Trabants.

 

[ExRes]

Well nobody is going to do more than cosmetic changes to a fleet size of 14 units that are already "goers", over the 2 years before a bigger fleet arrives.
New seat covers and a bit of paint is about all that will happen, and that is only for marketing purposes rather than an effort to "upgrade" anything for the passengers.
Once a few have been prized away from FCC maybe Northern and Porterbrook will be able to plan something better for the longer term.

You would hope that between them Northern and Porterbrook would have the basic intelligence to put a long term plan in place right now, surely it matters not whether any have been transferred from FCC

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

You would hope that between them Northern and Porterbrook would have the basic intelligence to put a long term plan in place right now, surely it matters not whether any have been transferred from FCC

No, because Northern does not have a fleet strategy beyond 2016.
Nobody has thought through the impact of NW and TP electrification and the consequent service specification for the Northern (and TPE) franchise.
The people doing that are the shadowy Rail North, with DfT.
That's what the franchise consultation is about.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

You would hope that between them Northern and Porterbrook would have the basic intelligence to put a long term plan in place right now, surely it matters not whether any have been transferred from FCC

In the corporate mind of Porterbrook, do they think that no upgrade whatsoever to this fleet is now required ?

 

[northwichcat]

Have we given full information as to what this "minor" make-over involves..?

Northern put on their official Twitter feed that the 319s won't be refurbished but will be made to look more like Northern Rail trains.

 

[Moonshot]

What a load of bull****. What matters is strengthening the services which are most overcrowded, not coming up with misleading statistics about number of carriages/seats provided like DfT do all the time.

Network Rail have flagged problems with 4 car EMUs being cascaded to the Bolton corridor not being configurable to the required formations, so it's something a major official organisation has flagged as a problem.

Im sorry but where have I mentioned anything about numbers?? I ve simply stated that up here in the North we are simply getting some more units. Very welcome they are too......but of course this personally benefits myself more than it does you as I am out on trains every day. And like I said, I really couldnt give a damn what they look like etc.....they carry passengers from A to B and that is it.......that is all they are designed to do. Frankly the average passenger wont care what they look like or how old they are, they simply have no interest.

 

[northwichcat]

IFrankly the average passenger wont care what they look like or how old they are, they simply have no interest.

Is that why at stations like Preston you hear actual passengers saying things like "We'll get the Northern service because the TPE service will be packed" or conversely "We'll get the TPE service because they have proper trains."

A Scottish passenger once got on an ex-LM 150/1 at Manchester Piccadilly which was running the semi-fast to Liverpool. He then said "This train's a load of ****e. I'm getting the next train" and walked off.

Im sorry but where have I mentioned anything about numbers??

You said "It doesn't matter what really matters is the fact that extra capacity is being added to the Northern Network" in response to my comment about some services on electrified lines getting extra capacity they don't need and others which need extra capacity will miss out, which sounds like a comment that a DfT person based in a London office might say.